From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa IV

[Lyanna Stark]

i don't think it is stunted (too soon to say) but we cannot deny that she has twisted reality.

Undeniably she has. Do you have a thought on why? As far as I can tell from the text, she does not appear to be traumatised by the event, and perhaps more importantly to my interpretation, she does not think back on Sandor with fear. Had she done that, I think I would have agreed with your assessment, but she does not. We also have the little tidbit later when she defends him in her mind, with that she thinks she knew why he deserted and thinks "But Sansa understood, it was only the fire he feared". So in your mind, she is whitewashing him completely and this is a sign of what? (In fact, Sansa is defending him even earlier, as early as in AGOT when she's taking his side in the Mycah incident.)

as for her preconceived notions of what a suitor should be, i can tell what he should not be: someone that uses weapons, anger and fear to get a desired response from you. all and all, i really don't think sandor means to harm her but i do believe he wasn't always able to manage his actions. i also think that the quiet isle may help with that but i really don't know how sandor will be in the next book(s).

Do you believe the Hound drew a knife from her to get the Hymn of the Mother out of Sansa, you mean, since that is what he got? Or do you mean that he drew the knife to get a "desired response" which is what, in your mind?

[peash]

As far as I can tell from the text, she does not appear to be traumatised by the event, and perhaps more importantly to my interpretation, she does not think back on Sandor with fear.

Thing is, the main reason why she isn't traumatised is because she whitewashed it. It clearly scared her and so, as has been said, she rewrote the event in her mind. It no longer affects her because she doesn't remember it as the Scary Event^TM that it was.

The question is why doesn't she whitewash other traumatising events - like her father's execution and her "bedding" with Tyrion.

This is could be because she has a generally positive view of Sandor but that doesn't explain her lack of rewriting of her time with Tyrion, whom she generally had a positive view. No doubt less sleepy mids than mine will come up with a reason.

[brashcandy]

Thing is, the main reason why she isn't traumatised is because she whitewashed it. It clearly scared her and so, as has been said, she rewrote the event in her mind. It no longer affects her because she doesn't remember it as the Scary Event^TM that it was.

The question is why doesn't she whitewash other traumatising events - like her father's execution and her "bedding" with Tyrion.

This is could be because she has a generally positive view of Sandor but that doesn't explain her lack of rewriting of her time with Tyrion, whom she generally had a positive view. No doubt less sleepy mids than mine will come up with a reason.

Why do people keep saying she whitewashed it? All she does is think that he kissed her; outside of that the events of that night are quite clear in her mind: the Hound came to her room to get her away, yes; there was green fire in the sky, yes; he took a song from her, yes. There's no whitewashing going on, outside of it seems to me readers have made up in their minds that this is an event which SHOULD HAVE traumatized Sansa and are ignoring the evidence that proves it didn't. When she wakes up after he's gone, she wraps herself in his cloak. Was this an act of whitewashing as well, or did she forget this bloody cloak on the ground belonged to Sandor? Sansa does not look back on that night with fear I believe because of how it ended: she realised what was behind the Hound's fears that night and she empathises with him. Her romanticisation comes in now because she also sensed that he wanted to kiss her that night, and given her own latent feelings for him, the unkiss is born.

[jons nissa]

@jon's nissa

I think Sansa's description of the kiss as "cruel" is very telling. Yes, she may have romanticised the night, but she hasn't completely whitewashed it in the sense of imagining Sandor as some gentle, gallant hero. Also, not focusing on how the scene ends - with her touching his face and feeling those tears - is I think, a mistake. As frightened as she was, and as dangerous as the Hound appeared to be, they do not part on a note of violence or fear at all. Forget the unkiss for a moment and think about what she does after he leaves: gets up and huddles under his cloak for warmth and comfort. That to me is even more powerful evidence that she is definitely not traumatised, at least not by Sandor.

to be honest, i don't know what sansa is thinking anymore however, she is shown to think of him when she thinks of sex, marriage and kisses. the same man that held a knife and demanded a song. my post only discusses that i think it is troubling that she has made this connection based on how the events truly played out. as for the end of the scene, let's look at all of it.

Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. “Little bird,” he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps.

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

How long she stayed there she could not have said, but after a time she heard a bell ringing, far off across the city. The sound was a deep-throated bronze booming, coming faster with each knell. Sansa was wondering what it might mean when a second bell joined in, and a third, their voices calling across the hills and hollows, the alleys and towers, to every corner of King’s Landing. She threw off the cloak and went to her window.

The first faint hint of dawn was visible in the east, and the Red Keep’s own bells were ringing now, joining in the swelling river of sound that flowed from the seven crystal towers of the Great Sept of Baelor. They had rung the bells when King Robert died, she remembered, but this was different, no slow dolorous death knell but a joyful thunder. She could hear men shouting in the streets as well, and something that could only be cheers.

It was Ser Dontos who brought her the word. He staggered through her open door, wrapped her in his flabby arms, and whirled her around and around the room, whooping so incoherently that Sansa understood not a word of it. He was as drunk as the Hound had been, but in him it was a dancing happy drunk.

as i read this, sandor leaves the cloak off as a symbol of him leaving the guard. he doesn't drape it around her which he could have done - he is clearly moved by her song and her touch. but he drops it carelessly. she is cold and covers with it. i see this completely in line with how i perceive their relationship: once again he is protecting her. she has always been comforted by the knowledge that he will protect her from others. but then she throws it off and is faced with bells and voices from below and dontos arrives. and look how she describes him: a happy dancing drunk not as how the hound had been. she is still not seeing this situation with the hound as a good thing.

[Lyanna Stark]

Thing is, the main reason why she isn't traumatised is because she whitewashed it. It clearly scared her and so, as has been said, she rewrote the event in her mind. It no longer affects her because she doesn't remember it as the Scary Event^TM that it was.

But Sansa does not look back on it with fear, and as you note, she is not known for blotting things out of her mind just because they're scary, so I think it's only logical to surmise something else is at work here no?

The question is why doesn't she whitewash other traumatising events - like her father's execution and her "bedding" with Tyrion.

This is could be because she has a generally positive view of Sandor but that doesn't explain her lack of rewriting of her time with Tyrion, whom she generally had a positive view. No doubt less sleepy mids than mine will come up with a reason.

I have no idea why you think she has a "generally positive view of Tyrion" since this is blatantly untrue. She recognises that he didn't torment her during their marriage, but he still very much married her against her will. Please see the Sansa Lannister thread for further discussion on this particular bit as its dealt with there in depth and we don't need three parallel threads about the same topic, I think.

[Lyanna Stark]

as i read this, sandor leaves the cloak off as a symbol of him leaving the guard. he doesn't drape it around her which he could have done - he is clearly moved by her song and her touch. but he drops it carelessly. she is cold and covers with it. i see this completely in line with how i perceive their relationship: once again he is protecting her. she has always been comforted by the knowledge that he will protect her from others. but then she throws it off and is faced with bells and voices from below and dontos arrives. and look how she describes him: a happy dancing drunk not as how the hound had been. she is still not seeing this situation with the hound as a good thing.

She chooses to drape herself in it until daybreak. Or do you mean she needs to wear it always?

I think it's fairly logical she could not view the situation with Sandor as simply as "a good thing" since it was fairly complex and he was definitely not in a good place.

[brashcandy]

to be honest, i don't know what sansa is thinking anymore however, she is shown to think of him when she thinks of sex, marriage and kisses. the same man that held a knife and demanded a song. my post only discusses that i think it is troubling that she has made this connection based on how the events truly played out. as for the end of the scene, let's look at all of it.

Again, what I'm reading here is that you think the event should have traumatised her, so now you're confused about the evidence that shows it really didn't.

as i read this, sandor leaves the cloak off as a symbol of him leaving the guard. he doesn't drape it around her which he could have done - he is clearly moved by her song and her touch. but he drops it carelessly. she is cold and covers with it. i see this completely in line with how i perceive their relationship: once again he is protecting her. she has always been comforted by the knowledge that he will protect her from others. but then she throws it off and is faced with bells and voices from below and dontos arrives. and look how she describes him: a happy dancing drunk not as how the hound had been. she is still not seeing this situation with the hound as a good thing.

:) This is a little bit of grasping at straws. You didn't expect her to remain under the cloak forever did you? And again, my point stands: why get under the cloak in the first place if she's traumatised by this man? Dontos is a happy dancing drunk, but she's certainly not romanticising him or keeping his cloak of protection.

[ElizaMartell]

Latent feelings or her lack of understanding of what has happened to her? I think its very presumptious to claim Sansa understands her bond with Sandor he occupies a role similar to protector that also incorporates some elements that is considered romantic. Even then, its the complexity of her relations to him and the exposure to the cruelty in King's Landing that makes them interesting rather than a clean cut definition of love that some are really eager on plastering everywhere.

[brashcandy]

FWIW, I think being forced to marry a man, strip naked for him and then have him climb into bed and fondle your breasts, all with the expectation of being forced to endure something you do not want, should be fairly traumatising as well. But I'm not going to deny the evidence in that very same chapter which highlights that Sansa came to view Tyrion with pity and later on at least appreciates that he protected her one time in KL.

[jons nissa]

Again, what I'm reading here is that you think the event should have traumatised her, so now you're confused about the evidence that shows it really didn't.

:) This is a little bit of grasping at straws. You didn't expect her to remain under the cloak forever did you? And again, my point stands: why get under the cloak in the first place if she's traumatised by this man? Dontos is a happy dancing drunk, but she's certainly not romanticising him or keeping his cloak of protection.

you know i was going to respond to raspie's questions but from your post i can see where this is going. this whole line of questioning started with a request to indicate whether sansa was confused about her emotions and feelings and i responded that i thought she was based on how she progresses from fear and knives to kisses and the marriage bed. if she was thinking of that night as it was, i would have very little to say but she isn't. that makes me wonder.

as for staying under the cloak forever, no, i didn't expect that. however i've seen some interesting takes on how sandor leaving his cloak represents the symbolic covering of the cloak in the marriage ceremony which i found to be completely grasping at straws and wanted to point out that if that were the case, she wouldn't just throw it off. i can't begin to understand why you mention sansa getting under dontos' cloak. did my post lead you to think that? anyway, i've explained my thoughts on this relationship as i understand it.

[Lyanna Stark]

you know i was going to respond to raspie's questions but from your post i can see where this is going. this whole line of questioning started with a request to indicate whether sansa was confused about her emotions and feelings and i responded that i thought she was based on how she progresses from fear and knives to kisses and the marriage bed. if she was thinking of that night as it was, i would have very little to say but she isn't. that makes me wonder.

Well, you keep saying it makes you wonder and you have thoughts about it, but I haven't yet seen any real theory about it apart from that you assume she has been traumatised, which we have no reason to believe from the text.

In fact, Sansa seems to also have avoided being traumatised by her experience with Tyrion, so all in all it seems she's fairly resilient.

In fact, what seems to bother her the most are the riot in Kings Landing, Joffrey's death in front of her and Lysa trying to toss her out the Moon Door.

[Valkyrja]

Valkyrja:

When in the Fingers LF tells her: "The Fingers are a lovely place, if you happen to be a Stone."

Given that Sansa herself is now a Stone, might this be foreshadowing of her eventual return there? It's tenuous at best, but something to keep in mind. Also, she draws strength from this bastard identity, and has a positive role model in Mya Stone.

I really enjoyed your post btw, on the whole contrast between dragonflies and dragons. If we extend the comparison further, dragons in the series are associated with fire and blood, death and destruction, qualities and pursuits that really do not define Sansa's character or personality. Dragons inspire fear, she talks of ruling through love. I know a lot of posters believe that Sansa not reclaiming her noble status would be an awful outcome, but if there's anyone who's experienced the nasty underbelly of nobility and would be predisposed to shunning it forever, it would be Sansa.

And just to support the Fingers as a place where Sansa might return, and which connects to your whole theory on the dragonflies:

Glad you enjoyed the post! I know it was ridiculously long. :P

I think the 'Stone' part of Sansa's bastard identity is interesting, but also somewhat troubling to me, given the negative associations elsewhere in the text wrt to things of stone: Lady Stoneheart and Greyscale (the stone men) are two examples that come to mind. I hope to the old gods and the new that this does not foreshadow that, as Alayne, Sansa's heart will turn to stone, or that poor Sansa will contract greyscale. :crying:

The possible connection to the Fingers is indeed interesting. I just keep hoping Sansa/Alayne will find a way to get out from under LF's thumb, both in terms of learning to out manouver him, but also in terms of finding a way to escape his physical presence. I love Sansa's AFfC chapters, but in some ways I hate them too because I find LF's twisted ways so painful to read about. I hate him for making Sansa complicit in his underhanded doings. I really fear for Sansa, I fear for her being twisted too far by LF. I don't think Sansa choosing to be Alayne Stone permanently would be so very sad in and of itself, provided she was able to find some peace of mind and autonomy (and dare I say, solace or even happiness?). Rather, I think what would be so very sad to me is not if Sansa chose a different name, but if she forgot how to be kind and compassionate. I think many people who are rooting for her to become LF's protege mastermind game of thrones player don't seem to care about the toll this might have on her if she fully embraces his way playing the game. :(

I'm glad you liked my little discussion re: the dragonfly imagery..... I just can't stop thinking of it myself. :) If anyone has any other ideas about what dragonflies might symbolize (especially within GRRM's 'verse), I'd be happy to hear. I just can't shake the connection to Dunk, Egg, and Duncan the Small . 'Choosing the dragonflies' meant to Dunk choosing to give up what he had always thought he wanted....the chance to train as a knight in a castle -- instead he chooses to continue living on the road as a hedge knight with his squire. Egg the Targaryen prince decides to hide in plain sight, living amongst common folk and must endure people insulting him to his face, without being able to retaliate. Duncan the Small chooses Jenny of Oldstones, whom he loves, and gives up his claim.

Yes, all three of them die in the tragedy of Summerhall, but does that have to directly with their choice between dragons and dragonflies? I don't know, and we'll have to wait and see if/until GRRM ever writes that final tragic scene in the D&E stories. :crying:

Speaking of dragonflies, here is a beautiful work of Sansa fan art by Annie Stuart, which includes some dragonfly imagery. :)

ETA: spelling.

[brashcandy]

Well, you keep saying it makes you wonder and you have thoughts about it, but I haven't yet seen any real theory about it apart from that you assume she has been traumatised, which we have no reason to believe from the text.

In fact, Sansa seems to also have avoided being traumatised by her experience with Tyrion, so all in all it seems she's fairly resilient.

In fact, what seems to bother her the most are the riot in Kings Landing, Joffrey's death in front of her and Lysa trying to toss her out the Moon Door.

Ah yes, you're right. I forgot about those events. Particularly the first one where she has nightmares afterwards and seems really stressed out.

you know i was going to respond to raspie's questions but from your post i can see where this is going. this whole line of questioning started with a request to indicate whether sansa was confused about her emotions and feelings and i responded that i thought she was based on how she progresses from fear and knives to kisses and the marriage bed. if she was thinking of that night as it was, i would have very little to say but she isn't. that makes me wonder.

I don't know where you think my post was going, but all I can tell you is that when you pose a question on the thread, you're going to be exposing yourself to opinions/perspectives you might not have considered. I'm genuinely trying to base my response to you on textual evidence, not as I want something to be, or think it should be. Do people develop coping mechanisms to do with traumatic memories? Yes. Do I think that's what is behind the memory of the unkiss? No. You of course are free to disagree. Lyanna Stark gave very solid examples from the text where we can pinpoint Sansa's reactions to trauma. I don't think that Sandor holding a knife to her throat or threatening her was in any way a good thing to do. It was terrible in fact. And something like that could traumatise a girl. That it didn't I believe speaks to the nature of their bond, and how the night ended. That's all I'm going to say on that for the moment.

as for staying under the cloak forever, no, i didn't expect that. however i've seen some interesting takes on how sandor leaving his cloak represents the symbolic covering of the cloak in the marriage ceremony which i found to be completely grasping at straws and wanted to point out that if that were the case, she wouldn't just throw it off. i can't begin to understand why you mention sansa getting under dontos' cloak. did my post lead you to think that? anyway, i've explained my thoughts on this relationship as i understand it.

That theory was based on what the cloak represents in Westerosi society. As I'm sure you can appreciate, people are free to give insights based on symbols/foreshadowing in the text. However, I'm not sure what point you could be making when you highlight that the cloak was thrown off by Sansa after she had just spent the entire night wearing it and later keeps it in her cedar chest.

[Kittykatknits]

Why do people keep saying she whitewashed it? All she does is think that he kissed her; outside of that the events of that night are quite clear in her mind: the Hound came to her room to get her away, yes; there was green fire in the sky, yes; he took a song from her, yes. There's no whitewashing going on, outside of it seems to me readers have made up in their minds that this is an event which SHOULD HAVE traumatized Sansa and are ignoring the evidence that proves it didn't. When she wakes up after he's gone, she wraps herself in his cloak. Was this an act of whitewashing as well, or did she forget this bloody cloak on the ground belonged to Sandor? Sansa does not look back on that night with fear I believe because of how it ended: she realised what was behind the Hound's fears that night and she empathises with him. Her romanticisation comes in now because she also sensed that he wanted to kiss her that night, and given her own latent feelings for him, the unkiss is born.

I'd also add that that night isn't the first incident where he does something that you think would traumatize her but it doesn't. Back in GOT, he tells her the story of his burns and then threatens her with not telling anyone, she doesn't show fear then. Much later, on the rooftop, he puts a sword at her throat and she has no fear then either. She seems to view both events pretty accurately and feels no fear over them. That night isn't an exception to me, it's just a further part of a pattern.

[Lady Kraken]

as for staying under the cloak forever, no, i didn't expect that. however i've seen some interesting takes on how sandor leaving his cloak represents the symbolic covering of the cloak in the marriage ceremony which i found to be completely grasping at straws and wanted to point out that if that were the case, she wouldn't just throw it off. i can't begin to understand why you mention sansa getting under dontos' cloak. did my post lead you to think that? anyway, i've explained my thoughts on this relationship as i understand it.

I, personally, do not like the idea of Sansa/Sandor in a long-term romantic relationship, or having any type of romantic relationship really. I think Sandor is an interesting character, but I'm not particularly enamored by him and I don't really see what a marriage to him would do for Sansa, unless it's truly what she wanted for some reason. I also wouldn't be upset if he never met Sansa again. But I think there's a fair bit of evidence in the text suggesting that they will. Ideally, I'd prefer to see to the relationship go the courtly love/sworn shield route if there is going to be some long-term relationship between them at all (I've always thought he'd die for her, but perhaps this is too obvious?). And based off my reading of Sansa's chapters, I think it is a possibility. I can expand on these thoughts later, but I just wanted to address the cloaks quickly.

Now, all this being said, I still think the cloaks might mean something more. Sansa associates them with protection, so that's what I'm going to go with. Sansa has three main "suitors"/protectors (none of which are even remotely appropriate, in my opinion)--Sandor, Tyrion, and Petyr--and it's interesting to me that they all three present her with cloaks and offer her their protection at the same time. And it's interesting what she does with the cloaks--she puts Sandor's on herself, she takes Petyr's passively, and rejects Tyrion's. I don't think Sandor and Sansa have to end up married for the cloaks to be significant in some way, it could just be an illustration of how she views the men in her life fashioning themselves as her "protector." She rejects being a Lannister and their protection. Maybe she'll accept some of Petyr's teachings but reject him as a protector at some point?

As for Sandor's cloak, it could be foreshadowing her accepting him as her sworn shield at some point, rather than marriage. It could mean marriage, I suppose. Or I agree that that the cloaks could mean nothing at all, they just kind of stuck out to me during my last re-read. Sandor does give her his cloak twice, I believe, but I think the second instance is the more important one. I also think it's interesting he leaves right after dropping it in her room. Maybe his role as a protector in the future will be fleeting? Or maybe it shows the hard truths he gives Sansa are still protecting her in some way even though he's no longer in her life? Maybe I'm thinking too much about this? Yeah, probably the last one. :P

Just some random, not particularly well organized thoughts! I realize a lot of this is just my personal opinion, and I mean no offense to people who are hoping for a romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor.

[Kittykatknits]

I hate to be frank, but I think as long you have a warrior based society (and your weapons of war are knives, swords and great physical strength, rather than AK47's, fighter planes, and nukes) your society will be patriarchal.

<snip for length>

There is lots that could be done and there is no reason why it needs to be completed on a short time table, which is what I was alluding to in my post. If she does take the throne and has a King Consort, that in itself would be huge. There are a number of ways that change could be brought up without necessarily ending the patriarchy. Heck, we are still in a patriarchy here in our world. I foresee social upheaval in Westeros coming, regardless of whether Dany is Queen or not. We've had years of war (with no end in sight) and The Others are still a looming threat. Both of these are going to cause change, we just don't know what that means yet. But, that change could very well include opportunity to include improvements for women too. It's like the adage, big changes make small changes easier.

[Valkyrja]

<snip>

I realize a lot of this is just my personal opinion, and I mean no offense to people who are hoping for a romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor.

I think those are perfectly valid interpretations, Lady Kraken, thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) And don't worry -- I fully recognize that what I hope or wish for won't necessarily be how things turn out.....I've learned that the hard way, like Sansa. :( Even though I like the idea of Sansa and Sandor together someday, I myself am still not sold on it ever happening....at least not as a marriage. Also, just because I hope for something doesn't mean I am totally clouded by it either, if that makes sense. I'm always trying to be careful to make sure that my predictions are based on a close reading of the text, and I am always interested in hearing others' views based upon their close readings of the text, even when they differ from mine. :)

[Kittykatknits]

I think those are perfectly valid interpretations, Lady Kraken, thanks for sharing your thoughts. :) And don't worry -- I fully recognize that what I hope or wish for won't necessarily be how things turn out.....I've learned that the hard way, like Sansa. :( Even though I like the idea of Sansa and Sandor together someday, I myself am still not sold on it ever happening....at least not as a marriage. Also, just because I hope for something doesn't mean I am totally clouded by it either, if that makes sense. I'm always trying to be careful to make sure that my predictions are based on a close reading of the text, and I am always interested in hearing others' views based upon their close readings of the text, even when they differ from mine. :)

This reflects my thoughts very well. I'd like your post but I'm always out of those by 10 in the morning. I'd also add that I never really understand the marriage symbolism of the cloak personally. I do think there is symbolism in how she reacts to the cloaks that the three men give her. I also think there is some symbolism for both of them when it comes to the cloak he left her, just not sure I buy the marriage aspect of it.

[ElizaMartell]

Wait so if Sansa has no tramatising experiences from being married with Tyrion, why does she freeze up in fear at the prospect of being married again?

[brashcandy]

Wait so if Sansa has no tramatising experiences from being married with Tyrion, why does she freeze up in fear at the prospect of being married again?

IMO, because marriage renders her a victim. She was a pawn during the marriage to Tyrion, solely for her claim, and she's come to believe that that's all the Tyrells wanted from her too. She wants to be appreciated for herself, not Winterfell.