[Book spoilers] RW: Season 3 or 4? part 2

[protar]

Add in 3 Marriages and you get the theme of the season ;) But I think that's the most important thing to remember, season 2 has by many viewers been regarded as slow, so you better get some things happening, there is enough excitement happening afterwards.

I'm asking myself what they will do with Winterfell though, they need to show it (viewers will demand it), but it will be a flashback? Do they keep Theon? The rest of the season seems pretty clearly laid out to me and we do already have a few puzzle parts (character names in the casting calls) to put together a good picture. I guess the main constraint will be the screentime alloted to each character.

Why do they have to show Winterfell? I think a good shaking up of the status quo by removing Winterfell as a locale (perhaps showing it all burnt and still like Harrenhal in the opening credits.) would be good. However they might have Ramsay occupy Winterfell and set up shop there.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Add in 3 Marriages and you get the theme of the season ;) But I think that's the most important thing to remember, season 2 has by many viewers been regarded as slow, so you better get some things happening, there is enough excitement happening afterwards.

I'm asking myself what they will do with Winterfell though, they need to show it (viewers will demand it), but it will be a flashback? Do they keep Theon? The rest of the season seems pretty clearly laid out to me and we do already have a few puzzle parts (character names in the casting calls) to put together a good picture. I guess the main constraint will be the screentime alloted to each character.

And a complete reversal of which King is on top. Season three will start with Stannis defeated and if it ends with the PW, end with all his named enemies dead.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I agree with all your post 100%, but this is one of the key aspects: you cannot delay a wedding that has been announced for TWO seasons/years!

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey in the first episode of the first season. Sansa's marriage arrangement was dissolved in the last episode of the second season. That's twenty episodes. And even if the Purple Wedding is not shown in this third season, it still won't have been as long as Sansa's betrothal by a long shot. But either way, it's hardly a "key aspect", and I don't think that would even be taken into consideration as they decide where and how to end the season.

One season

3 leeches

3 kings die.

Absolutely perfect.

¿Season 4? That's not our problem right now. Just make S3 of GoT best season ever.

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Well, if you insist, let's talk a bit about S4

In Season 4 we'll have the last 200 pages of ASOS, with a lot of things in 9 chapters

,

- KL: Oberyn arrives,maybe change Ellaria for Arianne, exposition about Dorne (Myrcella should be queen by Dornish law, etc),+Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne+ trial (Tyrions VS Varys, Shae, knights...the full court)+Jaime's exposition about Selmy/Kingsguard/+ Oberyn VS The Mountain +Tommen's wedding/coronation+ Tywin's/Shae death+ Tyrion escapes. I can see 9 chapters of KL perfectly.

- Arya rides with the Hound, wargs Nymeria, kills Polliver/battle in the Inn , escene with Hound diying, goes to Saltpans and leaves (she will appear in 5 chapters/9)

- Sansa: chat with LF about who killed Joffrey and why, goes to the Vale, wedding Lisa-LF, info about the the Eyrie, snow castle + kiss + abuse of LF, Moon Gate. 6 chapters.

- The Wall: "The Wall is yours", first battle VS Mance/ giants, 2nd battle (with Stannis), Meeting with Stannis, politics, Jon LC. Lots of work for CGI. 8 chapters

- Bran: form Nightfort to Bloodraven (4 chapters is enough)

And we'll add a bit of AFFC/ADWD

-Kingsmoot for sure 4 episodes at least,

-maybe Reek (I-III) +

-Brienne of AFFC, maybe even his whole arc of AFFC: chapter 4 Jaime gives her Oathkeeper, chapter 5 meets Pod, chapter 6 battle with Brave Companions, chapter 8 Quiet Island (with the Hound disguised), chapter 9 battle in the Inn Vs Rorge, Biter,

And then, the key: Season 4, Episode 10 will have the 1st chapter of ADWD/AFFC of a few characters:

- Tyrion in Pentos: he's told that he is going to meet Dany

- Euron command's Victarion to bring Dany.

-Arya arrives in an Assasin's house

- Sam (loved after his political business in earlier episodes) is going to Oldtown

- Cersei in the Iron Throne, Queen Regent.

- Arianne, if she was introduced previously, thinks about making Myrcella queen

- Jaime is going to conquer Riverlands

- Brienne and Stoneheart

And this outline is exactly why it's a bad idea to push the story of ASoS so far ahead. Does this sound like a satisfying season of television? It certainly has some great moments, but since so many people seem to think the PW should be in the third season because of "arcs" for both the plot and the characters, I can't see how a season like this would be acceptable. Sure, it has a lot of great moments, but it's also used uP the entirety of Brienne's arc from AFfC. Obviously I'm just using this post as an example (although it does provide a decent outline), but again, why split ASoS into (roughly) two seasons if all that will be left is about 200 pages? That doesn't even make sense, especially in light of the insistence that D&D are looking at this story in the long-term view.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Why do they have to show Winterfell? I think a good shaking up of the status quo by removing Winterfell as a locale (perhaps showing it all burnt and still like Harrenhal in the opening credits.) would be good. However they might have Ramsay occupy Winterfell and set up shop there.

They don't have to. But there needs to be some sort of explanation, no? Can they just leave that "what happened to Theon?" threat hanging for 2 years? I just don't see that. They can leave a gap, but they need to adress who burned down Winterfell somehow.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey in the first episode of the first season. Sansa's marriage arrangement was dissolved in the last episode of the second season. That's twenty episodes. And even if the Purple Wedding is not shown in this third season, it still won't have been as long as Sansa's betrothal by a long shot. But either way, it's hardly a "key aspect", and I don't think that would even be taken into consideration as they decide where and how to end the season.

And this outline is exactly why it's a bad idea to push the story of ASoS so far ahead. Does this sound like a satisfying season of television? It certainly has some great moments, but since so many people seem to think the PW should be in the third season because of "arcs" for both the plot and the characters, I can't see how a season like this would be acceptable. Sure, it has a lot of great moments, but it's also used uP the entirety of Brienne's arc from AFfC. Obviously I'm just using this post as an example (although it does provide a decent outline), but again, why split ASoS into (roughly) two seasons if all that will be left is about 200 pages? That doesn't even make sense, especially in light of the insistence that D&D are looking at this story in the long-term view.

First off Sansa's marriage was not the focal point for the KL story the way the PW is, the majority of the story in KL in GOT and COK was not the planning of Sansa's marriage to Joffrey so the stories are very different even if they both involve a marriage. There was never a date set for Sansa's marriage because she was still considered a child when it was made. That and the nature of the marriage changed dramatically at the end of the first season when it went from Sansa being married to a king she loved.

As for splitting the book with 200 pages left, the problem you are essentially running into is this. There is not enough story to make SOS two sesons but too much story to make SOS one. That is a fundimental problem with the story to tv transfer given that they have committed to 10 episodes per season. This book needs about 13-14, which means that inevitably AFFC/ADWD is going to have to come into season 4 regardless of where the PW is. And no matter when you place the PW, you're still going to have the same story gulf problems because that is just the nature of the how the story plays out in the books after the PW and SOS. So yes under these circumstances, since it is clear they are going to have to abandon the one book/one season general plot and it is likely the SOS cliffhangers may not be at the end of any season (though at the end of an episode sure), I think they should do complete story arcs over trying to force the book's structure, and that KL should see the wedding it will spend all season building towards.

[oierem]

And this outline is exactly why it's a bad idea to push the story of ASoS so far ahead. Does this sound like a satisfying season of television?

Ask yourself the same question about a season three without the PW.

season 4 and beyond is going to be complicated because of the nature of the source material, deal with it. If they create a GREAT season 3 (as great as season 1 for the average viewers) they will keep the audience interested.

[protar]

They don't have to. But there needs to be some sort of explanation, no? Can they just leave that "what happened to Theon?" threat hanging for 2 years? I just don't see that. They can leave a gap, but they need to adress who burned down Winterfell somehow.

Oh I agree that we need to see Theon. But that doesn't equate to actually seeing Winterfell. All the "mystery" (though confusion would be a better word.) of who sacked it can be adressed at the Dreadfort.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

Well, then we are on the same page, I just worded it poorly ;)

IF season 3 includes the Purple Wedding, it will be a great and fast-paced season. I am okay with that. I'm just having problems at the moment to see all that crammed into 10 episodes as I do agree with whoever said that they need to expand Dany and Jon's stories who otherwise look just like sidenotes. And especially after that season ender with the White Walkers. But if you give those more screen time, where do you cut it? Stannis needs a substantial amount, otherwise you can just leave him out. You can cut a bit with Arya, but she's a fan favourite and kinda tied in with Robb/Catelyn. How much of Roose Bolton do we actually see. Will he encounter Jaime? Bran's story will not take much screentime however, and Sansa and the whole of King's Landing will not need introduction (takes less screen time as well). But you can't cut Tyrion, he's the star of the season, he needs something to plot about other than marrying Sansa. So the only thing you can really cut down screentime is the Ironborn, but how much did they have this season? (And I want to see Balon open the letter with parts of Theon and see him in the storm). Also, we're back at the beginning of my post, then how much of Ramsay/Winterfell/Dreadfort/Theon do you show?

But in the end, I have no experience in television so it's incredibly difficult for me to guess the amount of screentimes needed for these story. That's why I'm not making any big guesses... Both versions will work in the end, fast-paced with three weddings and the other one, where the Purple Wedding is one hell of a start for a season...

[Khal-a-bunga]

Ask yourself the same question about a season three without the PW.

season 4 and beyond is going to be complicated because of the nature of the source material, deal with it. If they create a GREAT season 3 (as great as season 1 for the average viewers) they will keep the audience interested.

Yes, I think season three can still be a great season of television without the Purple Wedding. Was the first season of Breaking Bad unsatisfying because the relationship between Walt, Jesse, and Tuco had no real resolution? Did the first season of The Wire suffer as a result of it having essentially nothing but loose ends that were going to be resolved later? This is a matter of preference at this point, I'd say, but I see no real reason that the Purple Wedding absolutely has to happen simply because much (not all, in any case) of the story line in King's Landing will be focused on the upcoming marriage between Joffrey and Margaery. We'll know soon enough, though. I'd say that if Oberyn isn't cast for this season, the likelihood of the PW happening is significantly decreased. Season three can be GREAT without the PW. But season four and five and six (etc.) also need to be GREAT, so I'm sure D&D aren't looking to put all of their eggs in one basket. The long-term prospects of this show are something they'll be more concerned with, I'd think.

[Sasha Steelsong]

We'll know soon enough, though. I'd say that if Oberyn isn't cast for this season, the likelihood of the PW happening is significantly decreased. Season three can be GREAT without the PW.

I disagree. They've shown no hesitation in moving people around and Oberyn isn't needed for the wedding, the only thing he's needed for is the trial. And his anger over Elia is enough of a motivator to get him to seek Tyrion out if he doesn't show up until after Tyrion is arrested, as the only thing that would have to change is their meeting. As with the Reeds who were pushed back because they weren't really needed until Bran left Winterfell, I don't expect Oberyn to arrive in KL until they need him even if he arrived earlier in the books.

[DaveSumm]

There is not enough story to make SOS two sesons but too much story to make SOS one. That is a fundimental problem with the story to tv transfer given that they have committed to 10 episodes per season. This book needs about 13-14, which means that inevitably AFFC/ADWD is going to have to come into season 4 regardless of where the PW is. And no matter when you place the PW, you're still going to have the same story gulf problems because that is just the nature of the how the story plays out in the books after the PW and SOS. So yes under these circumstances, since it is clear they are going to have to abandon the one book/one season general plot and it is likely the SOS cliffhangers may not be at the end of any season (though at the end of an episode sure), I think they should do complete story arcs over trying to force the book's structure, and that KL should see the wedding it will spend all season building towards.

Even if I accepted that the PW was a better season closer for Season 3 (which I don't), the idea that this outweighs ending Season 4 with the end of aSoS I can't even begin to get on board with. Season 4 has the potential to be the greatest season ever, building toward the greatest book ending of the series. And this should be abandoned, because the PW makes for a better ending of an arc than the beginning of one? Where should Season 4 end? Brienne going to Maidenpool? Finding Season closers during the Feast/Dance period is going to be tough enough, even if they manage to time things so the book endings become season closers. The idea of ending a season a quarter of the way through Feast or Dance just doesn't make sense, surely.

[Khal-a-bunga]

I disagree. They've shown no hesitation in moving people around and Oberyn isn't needed for the wedding, the only thing he's needed for is the trial. And his anger over Elia is enough of a motivator to get him to seek Tyrion out if he doesn't show up until after Tyrion is arrested, as the only thing that would have to change is their meeting. As with the Reeds who were pushed back because they weren't really needed until Bran left Winterfell, I don't expect Oberyn to arrive in KL until they need him even if he arrived earlier in the books.

Doesn't his anger over Elia need to have some foundation if it's going to have the dramatic effect that it should? Wouldn't the introduction of the Dornish provide that while also introducing the audience to those characters in a way that makes sense? And also, in what episode is Tyrion released from jail? What does Arya do for all of season four? Do they choose to end the story lines in the fourth season however far they're able to make it? Again, so much precedence is being given to the third season that it leaves the fourth season wanting, and without any natural conclusions. My proposition is that less time be given to King's Landing than in the prior two seasons. Obviously you keep those characters involved, but not to the same degree as they had been. The closest equivalent to another television show that Game of Thrones has, structurally, is The Wire. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it because it's a fantastic show that doesn't always stick with conventional rules. My very vague outline would be...

Season three focuses more on Robb/Catelyn/Riverrun; Bran and company heading North; Jon Snow and the Night's Watch; Dany in Essos; Jaime/Brienne/Harrenhal; Arya with the Brave Companions and the Hound; Theon and Ramsay (sparingly) at the Dreadfort; Stannis and company; and continue to develop the Tyrell family. There are a lot of new characters in just those story lines, which will require time to introduce and establish along side our returning cast. Obviously KL will still be featured, but as I said, not as heavily as in the first two seasons.

Then in season four the show uses the chronologically relevant material for the Dornish and the new characters on the Iron Islands, as well as featuring much more of King's Landing. Jon and Dany remain as integral as they were in season three, and we continue to get bits of the remaining story lines from Arya, Brienne, Stannis, Bran, and Theon. Also, some of the Vale can be featured throughout both seasons, though more prominently in season four. In this way, characters that will be relevant when AFfC & ADwD are being adapted will have already been introduced (some of them, anyway) to lighten the load for those two seasons. Since the Dornish are important with regards to the happenings in KL, and the Iron Born play into Dany's story in Essos, they'll still fit in without feeling shoe-horned in.

That way the show is addressing the "jumping around" issue some had with the second season while still maintaining narrative urgency for the majority of the plot lines. It also helps to avoid pushing one plot thread too far ahead of the others in terms of the overall story. If I can find the time, I'll try to come up with a suitable outline for this, to give a better idea of how it would be structured.

Also, I noticed you chose to ignore my mention of both The Wire and Breaking Bad - if you haven't seen either of these, do yourself a favor and check them out, as they are two of he greatest shows of all time.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Even if I accepted that the PW was a better season closer for Season 3 (which I don't), the idea that this outweighs ending Season 4 with the end of aSoS I can't even begin to get on board with. Season 4 has the potential to be the greatest season ever, building toward the greatest book ending of the series. And this should be abandoned, because the PW makes for a better ending of an arc than the beginning of one? Where should Season 4 end? Brienne going to Maidenpool? Finding Season closers during the Feast/Dance period is going to be tough enough, even if they manage to time things so the book endings become season closers. The idea of ending a season a quarter of the way through Feast or Dance just doesn't make sense, surely.

It should be abandoned if it will make for a better television season than trying to force SOS to last two seasons just to keep the cliffhangers, no matter how you stretch it there are not 20 episodes out of SOS - and if you are suggesting the SOS endings for the end of Season 4 that is what you are suggesting, 20 episodes for SOS. You seem to think good tv is leaving half the cast's plot hanging with no conclusion in KL...that is not good television. Nor have I seen any satisfactory proposals from those calling for the PW in season 4 that have an ending for season 3 in KL. I don't envy the task of the writers in adapting AFFC/ADWD becuase there are no events after the PW that really work as cliffhangers till the very end of ADWD, that is the reality of the story in the books that they will have to deal with - and having the PW in the beginning of season 4 won't change that, nor will it make their lack of natural endings afterwards any different.

@khal-a-bunga, I didn't ignore it. I don't like either of those tv shows. I don't think GOT lends itself to the same format at all. Nor are they going to put half their cast on the backburner when one of the fan favorites is there. They aren't going to take the focus off KL, and if they don't they will need a conclusion for the KL story that is built entirely around the wedding.

[Khal-a-bunga]

It should be abandoned if it will make for a better television season than trying to force SOS to last two seasons just to keep the cliffhangers, no matter how you stretch it there are not 20 episodes out of SOS - and if you are suggesting the SOS endings for the end of Season 4 that is what you are suggesting, 20 episodes for SOS. You seem to think good tv is leaving half the cast's plot hanging with no conclusion in KL...that is not good television. Nor have I seen any satisfactory proposals from those calling for the PW in season 4 that have an ending for season 3 in KL. I don't envy the task of the writers in adapting AFFC/ADWD becuase there are no events after the PW that really work as cliffhangers till the very end of ADWD, that is the reality of the story in the books that they will have to deal with - and having the PW in the beginning of season 4 won't change that, nor will it make their lack of natural endings afterwards any different.

@khal-a-bunga, I didn't ignore it. I don't like either of those tv shows. I don't think GOT lends itself to the same format at all. Nor are they going to put half their cast on the backburner when one of the fan favorites is there. They aren't going to take the focus off KL, and if they don't they will need a conclusion for the KL story that is built entirely around the wedding.

No offense, but very little of what you're saying makes sense to me. First off, what television shows do you consider good if you don't care for either Breaking Bad or The Wire. And for that matter, what do you know about screenwriting or adapting material? I've done both, although obviously nothing on the scale of Game of Thrones. Does that make me better than you? Of course not. But it does make me more knowledgeable regarding these matters. Again, that doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong, just so we're clear. There is room for everyone to have an opinion. However, I just don't think you're correct in saying that the King's Landing arc in season three MUST end with the Purple Wedding, since that is its "natural conclusion". If you're so adamant about that, shouldn't season four also have a "natural conclusion"? And if so, what is it? You're being contradictory here, since the basis of your argument relies on season three having said "natural conclusion" (in your opinion), yet that leaves every season thereafter at risk of NOT having one.

The King's Landing story will be much more than just preparation for the wedding. We'll have Tywin as Hand of the King; Littlefinger and Varys doing their plotting and scheming (same thing...); Sansa and Tyrion being married; Dontos attempting to help Sansa escape; the relationship of Shae and Tyrion being further developed; the introduction of new Tyrell characters, who will certainly be getting more development than in the book; and the on-going war with the North to deal with. There's quite a bit more than just the build-up to the wedding that D&D can explore, and surely things will be added.

As to its conclusion, it could be any number of minor things. Not every ending for every story line has to be a massive climax, as great shows like Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men, The Wire, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under (etc., etc.) have shown. But I think we're bound to disagree on this ad nauseum, so...

[oierem]

The King's Landing story will be much more than just preparation for the wedding. We'll have Tywin as Hand of the King; Littlefinger and Varys doing their plotting and scheming (same thing...); Sansa and Tyrion being married; Dontos attempting to help Sansa escape; the relationship of Shae and Tyrion being further developed; the introduction of new Tyrell characters, who will certainly be getting more development than in the book; and the on-going war with the North to deal with. There's quite a bit more than just the build-up to the wedding that D&D can explore, and surely things will be added.

But ultimately, all those character-scenes which sound good in theory, become filler if the plot doesn't progress. Yes, they can have Littlefinger and varys plotting all season long, but nothing can come out of it because the story is already written. They can have Sansa trying to escape as many times as you want, but ultimately, she won't escape until the PW. You can have the Tyrells plot but there is no payoff until the PW. So,ultimately, all those intriguing scenes become filler that don't lead anywhere and frustrate viewers, who will feel that the show is streaching out material for too long.

In a nutshell, if you want all the good events in season 4 (and therefore, your priority is to make a great season 4), you should just skip season 3 altogether.

[Sasha Steelsong]

No offense, but very little of what you're saying makes sense to me. First off, what television shows do you consider good if you don't care for either Breaking Bad or The Wire. And for that matter, what do you know about screenwriting or adapting material? I've done both, although obviously nothing on the scale of Game of Thrones. Does that make me better than you? Of course not. But it does make me more knowledgeable regarding these matters. Again, that doesn't mean that I'm right and you're wrong, just so we're clear. There is room for everyone to have an opinion. However, I just don't think you're correct in saying that the King's Landing arc in season three MUST end with the Purple Wedding, since that is its "natural conclusion". If you're so adamant about that, shouldn't season four also have a "natural conclusion"? And if so, what is it? You're being contradictory here, since the basis of your argument relies on season three having said "natural conclusion" (in your opinion), yet that leaves every season thereafter at risk of NOT having one.

The King's Landing story will be much more than just preparation for the wedding. We'll have Tywin as Hand of the King; Littlefinger and Varys doing their plotting and scheming (same thing...); Sansa and Tyrion being married; Dontos attempting to help Sansa escape; the relationship of Shae and Tyrion being further developed; the introduction of new Tyrell characters, who will certainly be getting more development than in the book; and the on-going war with the North to deal with. There's quite a bit more than just the build-up to the wedding that D&D can explore, and surely things will be added.

As to its conclusion, it could be any number of minor things. Not every ending for every story line has to be a massive climax, as great shows like Breaking Bad, Deadwood, Mad Men, The Wire, The Sopranos, Six Feet Under (etc., etc.) have shown. But I think we're bound to disagree on this ad nauseum, so...

Well The Borgias, Fringe, The Walking Dead, Midsummer Murders, Deadwood, Archer, Dexter, Supernatural, Dr. Who and I can go on and on. It is possible to like televison and not like either Breaking Bad or the Wire. And frankly I'm sorry but if you are so knowledgeable about the adapatation process then you should know that adaptation does not avoid natural endings and that adaptation does not always follow the same pattern as the source material. Nor is it generally accepted to be good story telling to build something up for a season and go nowhere with it (see fans of the Killing if you don't believe me). Nor is it good storytelling to end half the cast's story on something minor as you seem to insist is how the KL story needs to end - and you still have yet to offer up what this minor conclusion should be. Surely if you are saying that the KL story can end before the PW you have something in mind that serves as an ending.

As for using natural conclusions...yes I think they should be used WHERE THEY EXIST and I have said repeatedly the problem with ASOIAF as a whole story is that after the PW there are almost no events until the end of ADWD that qualify as natural endings. So by necessity there will be one season in addition to season 3 where they will have to manufacture endings. It is a problem with the source material that is going to present a problem for the showrunners no matter where the PW is. If they do what you wish and push the PW to season four it doesn't solve your natural ending problem for the season, since the PW would have to happen in one of the opening episodes of the season; but it would ruin the arc of the three kings opposing Stannis being dead by the end of Season 3 - and when you consider the ending on Dragonstone of Mel assuring Stannis that his time is coming I definitely think that is where they are going with the overarching story of season 3. If they abandon the idea of sticking to the book structures there are numerous point they can use as the end of the arc. For instance as someone suggested...Tyrion gets across the sea and S4 ends with him going off to meet Dany, the Wall ends with Sam being sent off, KL ends with Cersei fully in "control" of KL after the death of Tywin, etc. All of which are in keeping with the way GOT likes to end things with is with a new arc beginning (ala Arya leaving Harranhal).

The one thing we agree on is that this is something on which we won't agree. Perhaps it is best left at that.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Well The Borgias, Fringe, The Walking Dead, Midsummer Murders, Deadwood, Archer, Dexter, Supernatural, Dr. Who and I can go on and on. It is possible to like televison and not like either Breaking Bad or the Wire. And frankly I'm sorry but if you are so knowledgeable about the adapatation process then you should know that adaptation does not avoid natural endings and that adaptation does not always follow the same pattern as the source material. Nor is it generally accepted to be good story telling to build something up for a season and go nowhere with it (see fans of the Killing if you don't believe me). Nor is it good storytelling to end half the cast's story on something minor as you seem to insist is how the KL story needs to end - and you still have yet to offer up what this minor conclusion should be. Surely if you are saying that the KL story can end before the PW you have something in mind that serves as an ending.

As for using natural conclusions...yes I think they should be used WHERE THEY EXIST and I have said repeatedly the problem with ASOIAF as a whole story is that after the PW there are almost no events until the end of ADWD that qualify as natural endings. So by necessity there will be one season in addition to season 3 where they will have to manufacture endings. It is a problem with the source material that is going to present a problem for the showrunners no matter where the PW is. If they do what you wish and push the PW to season four it doesn't solve your natural ending problem for the season, since the PW would have to happen in one of the opening episodes of the season; but it would ruin the arc of the three kings opposing Stannis being dead by the end of Season 3 - and when you consider the ending on Dragonstone of Mel assuring Stannis that his time is coming I definitely think that is where they are going with the overarching story of season 3. If they abandon the idea of sticking to the book structures there are numerous point they can use as the end of the arc. For instance as someone suggested...Tyrion gets across the sea and S4 ends with him going off to meet Dany, the Wall ends with Sam being sent off, KL ends with Cersei fully in "control" of KL after the death of Tywin, etc. All of which are in keeping with the way GOT likes to end things with is with a new arc beginning (ala Arya leaving Harranhal).

The one thing we agree on is that this is something on which we won't agree. Perhaps it is best left at that.

All of those shows you listed have had certain story lines that didn't pan out, although they began, in one season. My point is that not every story line has to have a climax in order for the season to be successful. Some plots can be left dangling in order to allow for the over-arching story to flow better. By focusing less on King's Landing and more on the other characters, this could be easily achieved. Time will tell, though. We'll know soon enough.

[protar]

I agree with those who are saying that the plot thread in KL can be left dangling for S4. It'd make a great season finale make no mistake but I feel that as D+D have 20 episodes to do SOS that they shouldn't rush it, and opening a season with Joffrey's death would be amazing. I see no problem with them taking the focus off KL a bit for S3 anyway. Providing there are plenty of interesting arcs elsewhere, this shouldn't be a problem. No one's suggesting that we excise the KL cast entirely just that they're given a bit less screen time.

Also, there is a way they could give KL a decent conclusion. Sansa and Tyrion's wedding. Now obviously this happens much later than it does in the books but I think it could work and considering the sparse material in KL in the first half of SOS, things will need to be drastically rearranged there anyway. The KL arc in S3 could really be very Sansa-centric, focusing on her development into a more likeable, sympathetic character and on her being a political pawn, being manipulated by the Tyrells, the Lannisters and LF. It wouldn't be a massive finale but that's in line with taking the focus off of KL and it would cap off that arc fairly well, with the second arc (the PW) being left for next season.

[DaveSumm]

Also, there is a way they could give KL a decent conclusion. Sansa and Tyrion's wedding. Now obviously this happens much later than it does in the books but I think it could work and considering the sparse material in KL in the first half of SOS, things will need to be drastically rearranged there anyway. The KL arc in S3 could really be very Sansa-centric, focusing on her development into a more likeable, sympathetic character and on her being a political pawn, being manipulated by the Tyrells, the Lannisters and LF. It wouldn't be a massive finale but that's in line with taking the focus off of KL and it would cap off that arc fairly well, with the second arc (the PW) being left for next season.

Strange, I just thought of this and came here to post exactly that. We've all been thinking that their wedding would be tucked away in the middle just because it's not a big deal in the books. But it IS a big deal really.

You could actually lead people to think that the season was about to end with the PW, with preparations being made, guests arriving, Sansa being fitted for her dress, she dares to actually be almost happy for once........and it turns out it's her marriage to Tyrion. The only thing is, you'd almost certainly have to tell Sansa about the RW in this episode, which is just beyond cruel. So those proposing that the Season ends too pro Lannister and too anti Stark wouldn't love it. But however they do it, there's certainly scope to expand on this wedding.

[Frost_Nocturne]

Next season will focus on KL less regardless of whether the PW is in or not. Very little happens there that we see before the PW compared to the first two books, and most of what does happen is build up to the PW. However, I'm sure we'll get to see plenty of additional scenes showing the Tyrells, Tywin/Cersei/Joff, LF/Varys, and (unfortunately) Ros. The issue is that while they may end up being largely great scenes, such added content can't have a major effect on the storyline unless the showrunners are willing to significantly alter central plot points - which up until now they have not.

I also think that it makes sense from a budgetary and character-count standpoint to delay Oberyn's arrival until S4 regardless of where the PW ends up, even though it would be cool to see him next season. There's already a large group of new characters that are confirmed for next season. Instead of having an explosion of new characters and plotlines in a FFC/DWD combined S5, I think several should be introduced in S4 instead. The Martells and the remaining Greyjoys being the obvious ones. Putting the FFC Greyjoy and Dorne material in S4 will naturally introduce plotlines like Victarion's quest and Quentyn's journey that will be covered in S5, and provide more screentime so that the majority of the SoS ending chapters will be in ep. 9 or 10 to provide satisfying arcs (Jon as LC, Tyrion as a kinslayer fleeing to Essos, Dany as queen of a conquered Mereen and Jorah being banished, Lysa out the moon door, ending with Uncat).

These are some of the best arc endings of the series, and I do think S4 should attempt to end with them. In some cases (Jon, Dany) there is plenty of book material (especially Jon) for a full S4 storyline assuming their S3 arcs end with Ygritte's death and Dracarys, respectively, as I predict they will. In others, (Arya, Sansa, Tyrion to a lesser extent) they will need to have added scenes and/or be offscreen more often than the first 3 seasons. Bran is obviously going to have the same problem going into S5. I could actually see them having Arya reclaim needle and leave for Braavos at the end of S3 if the RW goes down in ep. 8. Two episodes is enough time for her remaining chapters with Sandor in SoS, but she would then be in training for likely the next 3 seasons. I predict significant added material for Arya in S4.

As for Theon, holding off on reintroducing him until S4 would be perfect. Roose could show Cat his flayed finger at the RW as the reveal of his situation. However, imo they completely botched his storyline in the S2 finale and one of the consequences is that it's going to seem weird if he doesn't appear next season, as the viewers know he's alive and in the custody of the Dreadfort Bastard, instead of being able to assume he died in the sack of WF. They also need to learn who burnt WF and I don't think this should be kept a mystery for an entire season.

So, to put it more succinctly, adapting S4 is going to be a challenge for a handful of characters as far as giving them a satisfying storyline regardless of where they put the PW.