Heresy 14

[Lummel]

Ladies, Gentlemen and Others welcome to Heresy 14!

These threads started with the suspicion that there was something very strange about the Night's Watch and that maybe the story that has come down to us isn't as clear cut as expected, broadened to take in all the doubts that the Children of the Forest were just the easy going cuddly allies of the First Men, doubts about who built the Wall and why, warging and weirneting, the dangers of both Ice and Fire to the human condition, the meanings of songs, the significance or not of colours and the elements of iron and bronze and earth and water, questions about the Starks, skinchangers and those would be imitation skinchangers the Boltons.

We're keen on doubts, Old Nan's Tales, theories supported by the text but are entertained by the odd crackpot and enjoy finding connections between ASOIAF characters and mythologies (classical, Celtic and Scandinavian so far but we're open to more) and the big questions about life, the universe and what the song of ice and fire is really all about but are no believers in the given time-line.

Welcome to heretics old and new, feel free to dive in and share your thoughts.

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies), Heresy six, Heresy seven, Heresy eight, Heresy nine, Heresy ten, Heresy eleven, heresy twelve and heresy thirteen

[Frey Pie]

Taking over from Black Crow Lummel :P ? Ah i was well into the middle of these threads for a bit but since my exams iv been lost . Trying to catch up now! Any chance wed be able to get a lil synopsis of the current topic?

[Lummel]

Black Crow is on holiday in the 16th century (a time unfriendly to heretics :( ). I'm helping out. What do you want a synopsis of? (don't say everything...with 13 heresies to go through that's not funny :) )

[Frey Pie]

Just the last theory put forward which is being discussed or that has gained any momentum. The bare details will do. Sometimes when you just look at the comments its pretty hard to tell where its all coming from!

I hear the weather was nicer back then.... :P

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

A doubt about the Starks.

They seem to be the only ones with two different king titles:

King in the North,

King of Winter.

I cannot find any other of old seven kingdoms with the same kind of titles.

So my question is, were the Starks always Kings of the Winter or did they got this title by right of conquest?

One possibility would be after the Battle of Dawn the other after defeating the NK.

[Frey Pie]

A doubt about the Starks.

They seem to be the only ones with two different king titles:

King in the North,

King of Winter.

I cannot find any other of old seven kingdoms with the same kind of titles.

So my question is, were the Starks always Kings of the Winter or did they got this title by right of conquest?

One possibility would be after the Battle of Dawn the other after defeating the NK.

Dont think anyone could give you a definitive answer on that one. What i was just thinking was that if it is true that one Stark must always be in Winterfell and another in the watch as a type of sacrifice perhaps this is the seperation of titles-he at the wall would be King of the Winter and the Stark in Winterfell King in the North

My own question is does anyone else feel it is odd that followers of Rhllor i.e Mel, get a power boost while dragons, supposedly crreatures of pure fire and one would think in some way related to Rhllorian power, have there powers significantly reduced as we see with the story of Queen Alysanne and Silverwing? Theres also no evidence of people with other abilities e.g. warging, being stronger at the wall. Does this give us a hint of who raised the Wall? Sorry if this has been discussed previously!

[Jaimeisnotazombie]

So if there must always be a Stark in Winterfel, OR a Stark on the wall, if they break this pack the Others are free to go pass a certain line or marker. In theory.

So when Winterfell was empty/sacked, and Jon Defected from the KW and joined the wildlings, did this act break the pack and free the Others to esemble their forces.

I mean Jon and Bran respectively were the last chapters of CoK, and That was when there was no Stark on the wall or in Winterfell. The very next chapter the prolouge of SoS was the Others attacking.

I say OR because, i think a stark has to be in Winterfell or the watch. So when Ned was off at war, Benjen was on the wall, maybe north of the wall but still a member of the watch.

So with no Stark on the wall and no Stark in Winterfell, the pack was broken and freed the Others to do as they please.

The onlything this doesnt work with is the Prolouge of book one. I believe that the Others did have a long slumber, but they awakened. Now maybe the Rangers went to far into Other "territory" and then were free game. This would require for the Others to have been asleep for thousand years or so. This way it would have been the first attack by them, and not a common occurance.

I think the Pack may have had a human and Other Territory line like the the 38th parallel in korea. North of the line for the Others and South of it for humans and what not.

Edited.

[hotweaselsoup]

A doubt about the Starks.

They seem to be the only ones with two different king titles:

King in the North,

King of Winter.

I cannot find any other of old seven kingdoms with the same kind of titles.

So my question is, were the Starks always Kings of the Winter or did they got this title by right of conquest?

One possibility would be after the Battle of Dawn the other after defeating the NK.

Or maybe they were the Kings of Winter until the Night's King, who was one of their own who overreached himself? After his defeat, perhaps the Starks, in damage-control mode, decided to strike Winter from their styling and replace it with the more modest "in the North"?

(I'm currently working on the theory that the Battle for the Dawn was the battle against the Night's King, and that the Night's King was responsible for the Long Night.)

ETA: I'm tacking on my last post from Heresy 13, which fleshes out the Night King's Long Night theory a bit, and Eleana's giantlore recap:

I was excited to see you include the giants because I have searched through the books for all things giant recently. :)

Old Nan always says ( paraphrasing ) monsters live north of the Wall giants and ghouls, ( and adding sometimes ) shadows and walking dead but giants and ghouls are what she warns of. Also when Old Nan says as long as the NW stays true they can not pass the Wall, they being what was previously mentioned. Osh'a brother has even killed a giant. And we know the children say that giants are their brothers and their bane.

There are many stories of someone fighting giants, a few stories of the NW, wildlings and even in Essos, and stories of evil giants. Littlefinger says there are tales that Winterfell has had giants heads on it's walls, even though the tales say giants helped raise WF. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield of the Kingsguard saved Princess Daeryssa from the giants. There is also the tale about a man kept by evil giants in their castle only to escape and be killed by the Others.

A few random points of interest; The big horn that Mance found in a giants grave, and he claimed it to be the Horn of Winter, Tormund said it was one thousand years old. ( there is that number again ) There are giant animals like giant elk from the time of the First Men and Coldhands, giant bats in Harrenhal, giant krakens, giant turtles that are gods, monsterous snowbears, but the important one giant ice spiders - they are always called giant ice spiders.

A few things I'm contemplating;

• The song "The Last of the Giants", did not need to be composed by the giants and it could have been the wildlings.
  
• Could Moat Cailin have been a castle of the giants?
  
• Why have we not seen a giant wight?
  
• Do the giants hibernate? ( from Tormund's story )
  
• The importance of the Horn of Winter and the fact that it wakes the sleeping giants
  

I don't really see anything of great import but maybe someone else can.

Thanks for the recap of the giantlore, Eleana! Like you, the giants intrigue me mightily!

I know that we've speculated that Joramun was a giant, based on the fact that Mance was searching the giants' graves for Joramun horn/Horn of Winter. We've also been told that Joramun was the King-Beyond-the-Wall that helped the Stark in Winterfell defeat the Night's King. This actually ties in somewhat with my crackpot theory that the Night's King was responsible for the Long Night. If the Last Hero=Bran the Builder=The Stark in Winterfell, and Joramun=Giant, then would it not make sense that Bran the Builder, allied with the Giants, defeated the Night's King to end the Long Night, then raised the Wall together -- as we've been told -- in an attempt to prevent the calamity from ever occurring again? Moreover, if this great battle against the Night's King happened during the Long Night (and brought about its end, so it would be the Battle for the Dawn), it would make sense that these first troops under Bran the Builder would wear full black camouflage. And then after, at battle's end, the Night's Watch itself was formalized, complete with stirring oath against seeking personal glory, wives, lands, and crowns (all of which seem to have driven the Night's King), and their mission to keep watch against the Night's return.

I dunno, it's all just spitballing of course. But some of the pieces seem to fit.

The Horn of Winter is just a complete mystery to me. If Joramun was the giant who helped Bran the Builder raise the Wall, then why would he be given the ability to bring the Wall down? Unless it was a fail-safe device - an "in case of emergency, break Wall" type thing??

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

Dont think anyone could give you a definitive answer on that one. What i was just thinking was that if it is true that one Stark must always be in Winterfell and another in the watch as a type of sacrifice perhaps this is the seperation of titles-he at the wall would be King of the Winter and the Stark in Winterfell King in the North

My own question is does anyone else feel it is odd that followers of Rhllor i.e Mel, get a power boost while dragons, supposedly crreatures of pure fire and one would think in some way related to Rhllorian power, have there powers significantly reduced as we see with the story of Queen Alysanne and Silverwing? Theres also no evidence of people with other abilities e.g. warging, being stronger at the wall. Does this give us a hint of who raised the Wall? Sorry if this has been discussed previously!

Thanks for your answer.

I was thinkig maybe something more in the lines of who were the previous Kings of Winter?

How did the Starks came to that title?

Is it of any significance or just an empty stile?

And yes I find Mel's power boost odd.

Just can't find out why.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

Or maybe they were the Kings of Winter until the Night's King, who was one of their own who overreached himself? After his defeat, perhaps the Starks, in damage-control mode, decided to strike Winter from their styling and replace it with the more modest "in the North"?

(I'm currently working on the theory that the Battle for the Dawn was the battle against the Night's King, and that the Night's King was responsible for the Long Night.)

That sounds reasonable.

Are you including the other kings as well?

I have a inkling of idea that 5 kings were involved:

Grey King, Night King, King of the North, King of Winter and King-Beyond-the-Wall.

That's obvious related to my previous doubt.

[hotweaselsoup]

That sounds reasonable.

Are you including the other kings as well?

I have a inkling of idea that 5 kings were involved:

Grey King, Night King, King of the North, King of Winter and King-Beyond-the-Wall.

That's obvious related to my previous doubt.

Well, I guess my current thought is that the Kings of Winter were called thus before the Wall went up, and it was only after that you got the King in the North and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. I hadn't thought much about the Grey King, but remember that "long ago", there were said to be 100 kingdoms during the Age of Heroes, so there were probably many petty kings calling themselves all sorts of grandiose things.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

Well, I guess my current thought is that the Kings of Winter were called thus before the Wall went up, and it was only after that you got the King in the North and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. I hadn't thought much about the Grey King, but remember that "long ago", there were said to be 100 kingdoms during the Age of Heroes, so there were probably many petty kings calling themselves all sorts of grandiose things.

I would agree with you if not for the amount of attention drawn to this five.

I believe the Grey King was a greenseer and the bones of Naga a petrified Weirdwood grove.

The King of Winter, to me could be a Sidhe king.

The King-Beyond-the-Wall it is said was Joramun who blew the Horn of Winter to wake the Giants.

I see him in some way connected to the CotF.

The scenery I was imagining would have the Night King, the Grey King and the King of Winter fighting against the King in the North and the King-Beyond-the-Wall.

Plus it would be another war of the Five Kings.

And if you do the math, right after Aegon's conquest we are left with 5 kings, 4 reduced in name to Lords, could it mean something? :dunno:

All I know is that The George is Cunning. :D

[Winterfell is Burning]

And if you do the math, right after Aegon's conquest we are left with 5 kings, 4 reduced in name to Lords, could it mean something? :dunno:

Which ones? Before the Conquest, we had:

Stark

Arryn

Lannister

Hoare

Storm King

Gardiner

Dorne- which was a prince, and was not conquered until later.

[Last Eye of Bloodraven]

Which ones? Before the Conquest, we had:

Stark

Arryn

Lannister

Hoare

Storm King

Gardiner

Dorne- which was a prince, and was not conquered until later.

Sorry, I was not clear.

Before:

Stark

Arryn

Lannister

Gardiner

Baratheon

Hoare

Martell, prince in stile but a king in rights.

After:

Targaryen, king

Stark, lord

Arryn, lord

Lannister, lord

Martell, same as before.

[Orrin Storm]

It was a King in Dorne. It wasn't until they married into the royal family a hundred years before present that they changed their titles to "prince" to show that they were still royalty, but not in the same way.

EDIT: My bad, they did change their style after King Mors Nymeros Martell. I just double check and saw I was wrong. My bad o o;

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Are the children blocked by the Wall?

Though it is little more than circumstantial evidence-based guesswork, my 'feeling' is no, they are not blocked by the wall.

"Warding" seems "source-of-'magic'-dependent" when that 'ward' was put in place for a specific purpose (see CotF cave, see Wall -if i'm correct) If the Others can't pass, I would think the CotF could.

Yet at Storm's End, the ultimate defensive citadel fortress, I'm fairly confident its walls weren't warded against R'hllor specifically, but were warded against all magical incursion. (Then again... it is entirely possible that what is now called R'hllor & the red priests could easily have gone by another name or been represented by a different group at the time of Storm's End's construction).

If the wall was built specifically to stop the WhiteWalkers (which, despite many Heresy theories to the contrary, I still happen to believe), it stands to reason that Children could pass.

Conversely, however, if the wall was NOT built specifically to stop the Walkers, and was just a generic defensive structure, the Storm's End warding could apply... (BUT... I doubt anyone would object to the supposition that the Wall was built to keep a specific something out of somewhere, so as I stated above, I would think the cave warding rules would apply....)

**Second order projection... if the WW can't pass the wall, and giants can, the WW's are not just a separate race.... they're magical in nature.

*** Third order projection ... following this line of thought... it is most curious that Mel's powers have increased at the wall, whereas they were hindered at Storm's End. Make of that what you will... I shall have to think on it. Certainly doesn't support the legend that Brandon the builder constructed both structures (which makes me sad. I rather liked that legend.)

So many assumptions. This is like trying to play that old board game "Clue", but there are 10,000 different locations, weapons, and suspects.

EDIT++++

I've always found it really, really, really odd that the Horn of Winter brings down the wall and raises the giants. They seem so utterly unrelated, aside from both being in the North. There must be a specific connection.

Also very curious that there haven't been any giant wights. Very curious indeed.

On Kings Of the North/Kings of Winter:

I always presumed that they were just a case of multiple titles for the King... He was a legitimate king, and for quite some time. Think of how many titles the Targaryens acquired in only a few centuries "Robert, house baratheon, first of his name, king of first men, andals, rhoynar, defender of the realm, etc, etc."

I assume there was a conflict at some point at which the King of the North defeated a force from North of the Wall... perhaps the stark/joramun alliance... or after a Stark defeated a wildling incursion, or even after the end of the Long Night. I had always presumed they were just semi redundant synonymous titles...

[nanother]

Regarding who/what caused the Long Night: Old Nan says that was when the Others came the first time. If that's true, what caused their appearance at that specific time? I can imagine the NK being a catalyst by coupling with the first Other he saw (it'd make sense in many ways), but can't see him being the cause.

Also, some posters on the previous thread(s) state that Martin said something about Old Nan being super reliable. Where does that come from? She's been contradicted/undermined by Martin on at least two accounts: the Others not being dead and Brandon the Builder being just a legend. Sow how reliable she really is?

[alienarea]

Question: If the freaking high wall is blocking the White Walkers, and apparently they can't fly over it or pass it at the sides across the seas, why does it need to be defended? Just close the gates and be done with it. :dunno:

Another question: Apparently the White Walkers come when it is very cold, with mists and fogs. Could the freaking high wall be responsible for the return of the White Walkers because it serves as a barrier and thus enables the very cold nights?

Bonus crackpot: I have posted it once or twice before but noone replied. Are the White Walkers of aquatic origin, i.e. jellyfish that took a solid form when exposed to extreme cold? That could link their origin as collateral damage caused by the hammer of water, explain why they can't pass the wall across the seas, and possibly tie them to the Kraken and the Ironborn.

[Uncat]

Dear god, I cometly missed the jump. But this post just took me to long to just let it rot in Heresy 13. Here you have it, Uncat pondering on kingships and the analogy between Starks and Targs

@nanother

Yes, the true meaning of being King of Winter is lost. For those in the books the KoW is just an ancient title and part of what makes them fear and love their Starks.

I think we actually see one of the distictiv elements in the scene, when Robb is acclaimed as King in the North. He is given his a kingship by his Lords, because they want one man to lead them. This kingship rest on their will to bend their knee (or on the will of the majority of the Lords to bend or break the knees of the minority who would not swear their swords to the king). Here no greater power comes in, the King in the North is made by his men and from their support and their swords he draws his power.

But how do you become the man to rule the reign of Winter with everything and everyone in it? An how do you exercise your power in the Winters of the North. Because this is what people would expect from a King of Winter: to be able to reach out into the farthest points of his realm at anytime and especially during his own season. For this, he would need to draw from agreater power then the swords of the Lords in his kingdom.

And there again we have a parallel between house Stark and house Targ: The power to rule the seven Kingdoms was initialy drawn from their dragons. But those dragons died out and the Targs need to shift their powerbase: from a more absolutistic kind of regime to a kingship resting on the shoulders of men. But That did not happen which allowed the raise and powerstruggle of the great houses. I even suppose, that this shift was the reform which Rheagar had in mind. A new kind of kingship not resting on the wings and fire of long lost dragons but on the swords of the great houses.

It is true, that the Targs regime always had such acclamatory elements (wise political move by the Conqueror). But they were few and rather symbolic. In it self it was an absolute kingship which did not depend on man but on the power and magic of Fire and Blood.

Oh, and If it is true, that the books are really about Starks and Targs, you know what this makes the red Lion of Lannister? A big fat red herring veiling the smell of Dragons :D

[Uncat]

Reading this, I have the feeling that it's very probable that the Kings of Winter had actual direwolves, and used them in war - warging them to keep their subjects in line, maybe. Whether this stopped with the Wall or went on for some time until they were merely Kings in the North in more recent times, I have no idea.

I'm not sure it's unfortunate.

Things look a bit like Ice and Fire will rip apart most of the world, Westeros entirely, at the very least. Could it be that Jon would be the one to bring equilibrium between those opposed forces, ending their feud? Of course, a truce if not a peace bought at a great cost, including personal cost.

Well, right now I like to see him as the unexpected wildcard in the game, the bastard of ice and fire.. Maybe he brings balance back. Maybe he sides with one of the sides - the one he is more attaches to, in order to bring down the other and thuse restorin the upset balance.

As fore the Direwolf - some of thpse leadig packs of regular wolfs would make a nice winter force indeed. So I guess, yes, they had actual direwolfs.