Does the Ironborn Kingsmoot tell us anything about who wins the Game of Thrones?

[Capon Breath]

this is nonsense!!! ..... I dont see how you could make up stories about dark magic and sorcery!

I'll quite possibly concede this is Nonsense.

However I very clearly don't make up any stories about Dark Magic & Sorcery, I merely draw a parallel between Euron and Bloodraven with dark magic & sorcery as the link.

[Capon Breath]

This is a very interesting line of thought.

Before the Kingsmoot takes place, Asha remarks that "Tarle the Thrice-Drowned was heard to say that Maron Volmark is the true heir of the black line.” Maron Volmark is a teenager, and he ultimately did not make a claim at the Kingsmoot, but ended up supporting Victarion and being co-opted by Euron at the Shield Islands. If Aegon really is a Blackfyre, then he can also be described as an "heir of the black line". If Maron Volmark = Aegon, then this might be a hint that Aegon will never rule Westeros.

Euron is called a crow, he's captain of the Silence, his personal sigil is a red eye, and his victory is preceded by the blowing of a horn. Jon is a member of the Night's Watch (a crow), his direwolf never makes a sound (Silence), his direwolf has red eyes, and the Watch is associated with the blowing of horns. Euron's victory at the Kingsmoot could presage Jon's victory at the Game of Thrones.

Asha and Victarion make overtures toward an alliance, but ultimately clash at the Kingsmoot. Their clash is what allows Euron to swoop in and win the Kingsmoot. Could be a hint there.

I really like this explanation of Euron = Jon Snow, much better then my Euron = Bran / Blood raven, thanks Tze.

I also now think there might be some milage in Theon = Aegon. Both technically have the best claim to the throne but arent around in time to make it happen - maybe the Kings moot doesnt tell us the whole story about who wins the Iron Thron but just tales up to certain point? Or maybe the reality is that whoever wins there is always someone witing round the corner with a new / better claim?

[Ragnorak]

I really like this explanation of Euron = Jon Snow, much better then my Euron = Bran / Blood raven, thanks Tze.

I also now think there might be some milage in Theon = Aegon. Both technically have the best claim to the throne but arent around in time to make it happen - maybe the Kings moot doesnt tell us the whole story about who wins the Iron Thron but just tales up to certain point? Or maybe the reality is that whoever wins there is always someone witing round the corner with a new / better claim?

First, great insight. If you are right I wonder how deep the parallels actually are.

When Asha visits her Uncle "The Reader" before the King's Moot he is going over Marwyn's Book of Lost Books where Marwyn claims to find 3 pages of "Signs and Portents." That strengthens the Asha/Dany connection and the your whole foreshadowing theory in general. I wonder if it is just symbolism for Dany failing to take the Iron Throne or if she will also fail to heed an "uncle's" advice, will she be married off by the winner, etc.

What other parallels will hold up? Balon was killed by a Faceless Man so will Arya have a role to play in setting up the final battle? The Theon=Aegon not being there also fits with the Cyvasse game foreshadowing where one game is lost because the dragon is too far away.

[Silver Spearwife]

Maybe it's the other way around? Euron = Aegon, Theon = Jon Snow? Assume for all of this that the Blackfyre and R+L=J theories are true.

Euron's a late arrival after disappearing for ages, but swoops in and takes it regardless. In the line of succession, his place is similar. By normal Westerosi rules, Theon comes first, then Asha, then they jump back a generation to Euron. For the Targaryens, first comes Jon, then Dany, then they have to jump back quite a number of generations to get to the Blackfyres.

Theon, meanwhile, has the best claim but is totally absent from the kingsmoot and is distracted at the time by...more pressing matters. He was raised as a Stark as opposed to his rightful birth and is probably out of the line of succession anyway for other reasons.

[Mumatil]

Like a mircosm?

[Ser Elfor the Landstander]

This theory makes so much sense that I'm amazed few people considered it before.

Like many, I ignored most of what happened with the ironborn in AFFC, but this adds a lot of depth to what I considered a waste of time. I haven't reached that book in my current reread, but reading this thread has given me something to look forward to. Thanks, all.

However, I'd like to contribute something too.

I don't think Asha draws a parallel to Dany. In my view, Dany's more similar to Euron in a sense that they're both (sort of) saying "I have dragons". The promise of power is too tantalizing, and it's what ultimately makes Euron the winner in the Kingsmoot. Dany's also something of a promise; she has dragons, but she still can't control them. While Euron doesn't have dragons, he's confident that he can control them.

Excellent thread, BTW.

[Babeldygob]

I like the theory. It seems to fit. I ask myself if GRRM would have actually thought of this or not. Euron had to win that King's Moot for the story presumably. Does it mean Jon/Bloodraven will win? I doubt it. I still cannot see Jon not dying at the end of it all and bloodraven... meh. I fear any character introduced later than SoS doesn't hold a chance to hold the Iron Throne or be a main character at the end of it all.

[hotweaselsoup]

And when Jon does plant his cold, dead ass on that nasty pointy chair, will we have the Sparrow Damphair in the wings shrieking that no godless man can sit the Iron Throne?

Great theory, Capon Breath. (Gods, I love these books!)

[tze]

And when Jon does plant his cold, dead ass on that nasty pointy chair, will we have the Sparrow Damphair in the wings shrieking that no godless man can sit the Iron Throne?

Aeron also opposes Asha solely because she's a woman, and a lot of posters have predicted that the High Septon will oppose Dany because she's a woman, so I think the Aeron = High Septon parallel has a lot of weight to it.

Aeron could also serve as a parallel to Varys. Aeron was the one who called the Kingsmoot, believing it would inevitably crown his chosen candidate (Victarion). But events spiraled out of his control, and the very nature of the insitution (that any captain can make a claim) led to Aeron's chosen candidate losing at the very brink of victory. Varys was backing Aegon from the very beginning, and his actions since AGOT were apparently meant to ultimately sit Aegon on the throne. This could serve as a hint that victory will be snatched from Varys's chosen candidate right at the last minute, all because of events Varys himself set into motion.

At the Kingsmoot, the dragon horn is blown by a man with a bird tattooed on his chest. After blowing the horn, that bird tattoo starts bleeding. Bleeding bird = Bloodraven. The horn was meant to control dragons. Perhaps this is a hint that Bloodraven will ultimately play a role in the control of those dragons?

[dreamcatcher]

Euron is called a crow, he's captain of the Silence, his personal sigil is a red eye, and his victory is preceded by the blowing of a horn. Jon is a member of the Night's Watch (a crow), his direwolf never makes a sound (Silence), his direwolf has red eyes, and the Watch is associated with the blowing of horns. Euron's victory at the Kingsmoot could presage Jon's victory at the Game of Thrones.

Asha and Victarion make overtures toward an alliance, but ultimately clash at the Kingsmoot. Their clash is what allows Euron to swoop in and win the Kingsmoot. Could be a hint there.

Oh my, this is great.... and horrible at the same time. I hope Jon doesn't become like Euron, all weird and shit.

[Fire Eater]

Euron is called a crow, he's captain of the Silence, his personal sigil is a red eye, and his victory is preceded by the blowing of a horn. Jon is a member of the Night's Watch (a crow), his direwolf never makes a sound (Silence), his direwolf has red eyes, and the Watch is associated with the blowing of horns. Euron's victory at the Kingsmoot could presage Jon's victory at the Game of Thrones.

I agree with everything except the horn. The hellhorn creates a horrible moment with its screaming sound when it is blown, ending the conflict between Asha and Victarion's supporters and the event ends with Euron becoming king. The Horn of Joramun (which Melisandre called "the horn of hell") will create a chaotic situation when the Wall is brought down, ending the conflict between Dany and the others and it all ends with Jon becoming king.

[Hamilton]

Where does Euron fall into this since he is now a claimant to the throne?

[Luna Plath]

I really like this parallel, especially the insights people have provided on Aegon, Dany, and Euron=Jon. I'm wondering if there's any foreshadowing/indication of what we can expect for the Lannister kids? (i.e. Myrcella and Tommen).

[Lady of Long Lake]

snip

Really cool theory:) Thanks for posting it.

[Capon Breath]

hotweaslesoup & tze - I really like the Aeorn = High Sparrow connection

At the Kingsmoot, the dragon horn is blown by a man with a bird tattooed on his chest. After blowing the horn, that bird tattoo starts bleeding. Bleeding bird = Bloodraven. The horn was meant to control dragons. Perhaps this is a hint that Bloodraven will ultimately play a role in the control of those dragons?

Epic !

[Brandon Martell]

Am I the only one seeing Theon corresponding to Viserys, or even Dany? He was taken from his home, but he always wanted to return and eventually become lord or king of the Iron Islands. More like Viserys than Dany to me.

[Knight of the Teabags]

This is a very interesting line of thought.

Before the Kingsmoot takes place, Asha remarks that "Tarle the Thrice-Drowned was heard to say that Maron Volmark is the true heir of the black line.”

Interesting indeed, even if you take a much more literal reading of this. I think probably what Tarle is referring to by 'the Black line' is the line of Harren the Black who was the pre-Targaryen conquest Ironborn King (and also ruled a fair bit of the Riverlands: notably Harrenhal). House Greyjoy was only raised to the Lords of the Iron Isles after the conquest.

So apparently this Maron Volmark can claim to be a descendent of Harren the Black (probably through a female line) - funny I would have thought a family as ruthless as the Greyjoys would had made sure there wouldn't any 'heirs of the black line' around to challenge their rule but then the Greyjoys (or the Ironborn in general) have never been that great longterm thinkers...

[tze]

"Tarle the Thrice-Drowned was heard to say that Maron Volmark is the true heir of the black line.”

Here's a thought: perhaps Tarle = Tarly? Either Sam or Randyll (or perhaps even both)? There's been quite a bit of speculation that Tarly is going to turn his cloak and support Aegon, so if Aegon really is a Blackfyre, then Tarle supporting an heir to Harren the Black could foreshadow Tarly (Randyll) backing a Blackfyre heir. And Sam is Jon's BFF, and has backed Jon for a leadership position in the past, so perhaps Tarle backing the heir of Harren the Black could also foreshadow Tarly (Sam) backing the heir associated with the black-clad Night's Watch (Jon)?

[Where Boars Glow]

I hated the Ironborn on first read and so paid reasonable attention second time round to try and find something redeeming in any of their chapters. To be honest I still find them dull and 1 dimensional.

So i'm reaching a fair bit here but my fun theory for your dissection is that the Kingsmoot speeches track the passing of the Iron Crown...

1st up Gilbert Farwynd - We dont get a lot of detail and his Speech but its his "Mad Eyes" that get him shouted down. Gilbert Farwyn = Mad King Aerys.

2nd up - Erik Ironbreak, an overweight past it ruler famous for his Warhammer. Erik Ironbreaker = Robert Baratheon

3rd up - The Drumm. Good backers, good heritage & Valyrian Sword but fails to impress by being Boring. (Ok so my theory is particularly weak here) The Drumm represents the "background noise" of the Lannister Kids as rulers whilst we all wait for the "Main Characters" to show up and make a claim for the Iron Throne.

Next up Victarion. Great Warrior, terrible speaker and reluctant ruler. Tormented by the shadow of his older brother and soon to become convert to R'hllorism. Victarion = Stannis

Last but 1, Asha Greyjoy. A woman, talks about being "a mother" in her speech but her Children are weapons of war. Wants the Ironbron to abandon an old unsustainable way of life and embrace a new path just like Dany tries to change the way of life in Slavers bay. Asha = Dany.

Last up and the winner is Euron Crows Eye. Crow reference, powers of dark sorcery, has actually been the one engineering the events in the background from the start. Euron = Bloodraven or more likely his nedw disciple Bran.

So using my extremely tenuous and unreliable "Kingsmoot plot predictor" I can now confirm the rest of the plot of the series:

Stannis Wins the Iron Throne in WOW

Dany Takes it back via Dragon Power also in WOW

Blood Raven & Bran eventually overcome Dany by The end of the series.

Great stuff mate. One question......are you forgetting someone?

Is Theon/Reek still going to get a chance to Kingsmoot. Remember the presidience was mentioned that one not present could be chosen after the Kingsmoot.

If so....who does he represent?

[tze]

Is Theon/Reek still going to get a chance to Kingsmoot. Remember the presidience was mentioned that one not present could be chosen after the Kingsmoot.

If so....who does he represent?

I think the chances of Theon being used to invalidate the Kingsmoot are pretty darn slim. The Ironborn are not a culture of lawyers---the fact that a prince who was off reaving got to redo the Kingsmoot thousands of years ago doesn't mean that a prince who got himself captured and was tortured into near-insanity will automatically be permitted to do the same in the present day. These guys won't feel bound to follow precedent (like I said: no lawyers), certainly not unless that precedent gives them an excuse to do what they want to do anyway, and getting rid of Euron and potentially putting Theon on the Seastone Chair don't strike me as the sort of things the Ironborn are going to be chomping at the bit to do in the near future, certainly not unless some pretty massive changes are made to both Euron's status and Theon's status (and while I could see the former happening, especially with Aegon's arrival, the latter strikes me as incredibly unlikely).

But the fact that Theon, the "rightful heir", missed the Kingsmoot because he was trapped underground, losing his skin . . . well, Theon could represent Bloodraven. Bloodraven is currently "trapped" beneath the earth, losing his skin (as he's a skinchanger). Bloodraven is a legitimized son of Aegon IV, and were he freed of his Night's Watch vows (and he kinda has a direct line to the Old Gods, so the chances of that happening aren't exactly out of the realm of possibility), then due to his status as a legitimized son of a Targ king, he might actually be able to make a claim to the Iron Throne. The Targs have explicitly allowed uncles to come before nieces in the past---and Bloodraven is Dany's great-great-great-whatever uncle. Theon's failure to take part in the Kingsmoot could presage Bloodraven's failure to throw his own name into the ring during the game of thrones.