Naathi Prince Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Neither was Robert, AFAIK. It sure seems he was older than sixteen at that moment. And I can't see what difference does this make, actually.Yes, I can call someone referred to as "the wild wolf" as boring because that's exactly what he is to me. Yet another brave young hot-head who in the end is awesome and cool and all. Yuck. I prefer to read about real people.Charging into the castle of somone you believe kidnapped and raped your baby sister expecting him to hand her over quietly isn't reckless. It's unreal.Are you serious, you think you wouldn't try to kill the man who kidnapped and raped your little sister? Especially with the rules and code of Westeros? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthernWarrior Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The people calling Brandon stupid and what he did foolish are not actually looking at the situation. Brandon riding to Kings Landing and demanding Rhaegar fight for Lyanna was the only possible way of preventing the war. Doing nothing is not an option. Its either call the banners and plunge the realm into civil war, or ride to Kings Landing and demand the 1 vs 1 fight to resolve the problem. Aery's response of offering the trial by combat but actually just murdering them is a risk they had to take. Its either risk your own life or the life of thousands of Northman, Brandon & Rickard did the honourable thing to try to and prevent the war. If you think it was so stupid what is the other viable option? The other thing people don't seem to realize is that its not like Brandon rode down to Kings Landing and demanded Rhaegars head in about 5 minutes. Yes the story we are given makes it sound like a rash wild thing to do, but it actually would have taken days to ride from Riverrun to Kings Landing. He had lots of time to think about and knew exactly what he was doing, judgement of the decision after the fact is tainted with hindsight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Patreck Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Are you serious, you think you wouldn't try to kill the man who kidnapped and raped your little sister? Especially with the rules and code of Westeros?Well. yes. But I'd try to do it with an actual army and an actual plan, and not just... You know... Charge into the rapist's den that's full of the rapist's thugs thinking he would accept my invitation to fight one-to-one without any interference.And why everyone keeps mentioning Westerosi rules and codes of conduct? If they are so absolute, no one would advise him against this course of action.Again - His expectations are unreal. If he's willing to believe Rhaegar kidnapped and is now raping Lyanna, why the fuck does he believe Rhaegar would simply hand her back or meet him in single combat, when they're surrounded by Rhaegar's sworn swords and bannermen? It's stupid. He wanted to rain down violence on the Targaryen House, okay, very well, but do it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 The people calling Brandon stupid and what he did foolish are not actually looking at the situation. Brandon riding to Kings Landing and demanding Rhaegar fight for Lyanna was the only possible way of preventing the war.I partly agree with you; it's the bolded part that is the issue.Yes, someone had to go to King's Landing and make sense of the whole mess.No, the true extent of Aerys' paranoia and 'madness' was not known at the moment.But a little diplomacy was in order here. Not a demonstration of gallant bravery (bravado, I'd rather call it).EDIT: It is understandable that Brandon reacted the way he did (hell, I'd probably do the same). But since the two eloping individuals in question were people of high rank and, in turn, anything that happened to them would elicit a responce by people with power, it was imperative to shed light on the issue without calling for swords out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthernWarrior Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I partly agree with you; it's the bolded part that is the issue.Yes, someone had to go to King's Landing and make sense of the whole mess.No, the true extent of Aerys' paranoia and 'madness' was not known at the moment.But a little diplomacy was in order here. Not a demonstration of gallant bravery (bravado, I'd rather call it).I disagree. Sitting down and asking nicely or trying to negotiate would come off as rather weak. Coming down and demanding him to fight, with I am sure half the city as a witness including the nobles at court from all over the realm, is direct challenge to Rhaegar honour and skill. If Rhaegar was there he would have no choice but to accept the challenge or look like a coward. If you wanted a 1 vs 1 fight with another noble this is exactly what you do, you challenge him in front of everyone, trying to play into his pride and ego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Well. yes. But I'd try to do it with an actual army and an actual plan, and not just... You know... Charge into the rapist's den that's full of the rapist's thugs thinking he would accept my invitation to fight one-to-one without any interference.And why everyone keeps mentioning Westerosi rules and codes of conduct? If they are so absolute, no one would advise him against this course of action.Again - His expectations are unreal. If he's willing to believe Rhaegar kidnapped and is now raping Lyanna, why the fuck does he believe Rhaegar would simply hand her back or meet him in single combat, when they're surrounded by Rhaegar's sworn swords and bannermen? It's stupid. He wanted to rain down violence on the Targaryen House, okay, very well, but do it right.Why is it stupid?? Tyrion calls for single combat when presented to Lysa and surrounded by Lysa's sworn swords and bannermen and he is not denied. Try to understand that single combat is a very old custom and tradition in westeros - Brandon had no idea that he would be denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Patreck Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Why is it stupid?? Tyrion calls for single combat when presented to Lysa and surrounded by Lysa's sworn swords and bannermen and he is not denied. Try to understand that single combat is a very old custom and tradition in westeros - Brandon had no idea that he would be denied.Tyrion was arrested on false charges. He was to be judged, and choose to ask for Trial by Combat. He didn't charge in the Eyrie. It was his only choice.Brandon was acting on the belief that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister. If a man is willing to do this, he must also be willing to employ every weapon in his arsenal to come out on top. Including ordering all his guards to strike you down once you defy him.To put in other words - How do you think Joffrey would react if Robb charged alone in King's Landing commanding him to answer for Eddard's beheading?Tyrion was arrested under the pretense of Justice, and acted on that belief. Brandon thought he was dealing with a mad petty tyrant... And acted in a way inconsistent with that... If I'm going to go against a crimelord, I don't expect him to answer to a judicial order without force to back it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblair Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I find it extremely sad that we don't get more of Brandon Stark, but I may be bias, since I'm a Stark loyalist. I bet his POV chapters would be awesome!!!From what I've gathered, it would involve a lot of random fucking and fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nQthing Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Are you serious, you think you wouldn't try to kill the man who kidnapped and raped your little sister? Especially with the rules and code of Westeros?Yes, anyone would. But he didn't threaten a man. He threaten rhaegar. The man everyone in westeros loves and wants to be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barty Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Tyrion was arrested on false charges. He was to be judged, and choose to ask for Trial by Combat. He didn't charge in the Eyrie. It was his only choice.Brandon was acting on the belief that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister. If a man is willing to do this, he must also be willing to employ every weapon in his arsenal to come out on top. Including ordering all his guards to strike you down once you defy him.To put in other words - How do you think Joffrey would react if Robb charged alone in King's Landing commanding him to answer for Eddard's beheading?Tyrion was arrested under the pretense of Justice, and acted on that belief. Brandon thought he was dealing with a mad petty tyrant... And acted in a way inconsistent with that... If I'm going to go against a crimelord, I don't expect him to answer to a judicial order without force to back it.Brandon was accusing Rhaegar of raping his sister and demanding trial by combat. He was also acting on the belief that Rhaegar was in King's Landing - We all agree (i think) that if Rhaegar was in King's Landing he would have accepted Brandon's challenge - is it wrong for Brandon to also think the same as us??Rhaegar is known over the whole kingdom for his chivalry - no doubt Brandon thought Rhaegar would have to agree if he was present just to protect his image and not be labelled as a coward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Yea, sure, Brandon didn't know all the facts, how many Westerosi do when they act? He wanted to save his sister. I'm not going to call the man stupid for a brave and noble act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alric Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Brandon was accusing Rhaegar of raping his sister and demanding trial by combat. He was also acting on the belief that Rhaegar was in King's Landing - We all agree (i think) that if Rhaegar was in King's Landing he would have accepted Brandon's challenge - is it wrong for Brandon to also think the same as us??Rhaegar is known over the whole kingdom for his chivalry - no doubt Brandon thought Rhaegar would have to agree if he was present just to protect his image and not be labelled as a coward.I actually disagree. Rheagar had plenty of time to get to King's Landing if they had Brandon imprisoned for long enough for Rickard to get there for the trial. Rheagar knew he wasn't beating Brandon and let Dad deal with it. In addition he was fixated on being the Father of the Prince Who was Promised, not his reputation. Rheagar never cared about being labeled Baleor the Blessed rebarn until it occurred to him from soemthing he read he needed to learn to fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Patreck Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Brandon was accusing Rhaegar of raping his sister and demanding trial by combat. He was also acting on the belief that Rhaegar was in King's Landing - We all agree (i think) that if Rhaegar was in King's Landing he would have accepted Brandon's challenge - is it wrong for Brandon to also think the same as us??Rhaegar is known over the whole kingdom for his chivalry - no doubt Brandon thought Rhaegar would have to agree if he was present just to protect his image and not be labelled as a coward.The conclusions don't follow. See, if he was so sure Rhaegar was this chivalric and noble individual, why was he so hasty to jump to the conclusion he was raping his sister? If he thought Rhaegar was a coward and a criminal, why charge, unprotected, on the lion's den and ask for his head?Brandon's actions were stupid. If he rode home to call his banners, than that would be brave, perhaps, even noble, if a bit rash. But charging the Red Keep itself, and asking for the Crown Prince's head? Aerys' fame was big already. What did he think, that he was too good to be captured?Actually, yes, that was probably what he thought. And that's the point. Brandon is rash and hot-headed, and in a world like Westeros, these aren't good qualities at all. This isn't an action flick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balintos Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 If he had fought a duel against Rhaegar he would have been brave. But the only thing he did was to provoke a mad king by himself so he was stupid (and brave). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alric Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 SO for all the people who are saying Brandon should have raised his banners a quick question. It is better for the Noble of a Great House to rebel and bring the Kingdom to war killing thousands rather then demand trial by combat widely used in Westernos and bring one or two deaths about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't get the "he shouldn't have tried to duel Rhaegar" approach. He had no way of knowing Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep. If Rhaegar had been there, he would have won the duel and left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balintos Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 I don't get the "he shouldn't have tried to duel Rhaegar" approach. He had no way of knowing Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep. If Rhaegar had been there, he would have won the duel and left.If he had been there and if he wanted to accept the duel and he could convince his fater and the Kingsguard not to intervene than probably he would have won the duel. Sounds like a good plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 why do people assume Rhaegar would accept the duel? Aren't this duel to the death? If so then why would Lyanna want that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alric Stark Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 They have shown people can yield in a duel/trial by combat. In the Hedge Knight the Targaryans withdrew their accusations against Dunk and yielded rather then be killed. So it was not common, but could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser_Patreck Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 SO for all the people who are saying Brandon should have raised his banners a quick question. It is better for the Noble of a Great House to rebel and bring the Kingdom to war killing thousands rather then demand trial by combat widely used in Westernos and bring one or two deaths about?I'll assume this was meant for me.Yes, it is, because calling his banners is actually effective. He didn't demand a trial by combat because there was no one being formally accused of anything. He demanded a duel, presumably on the condition that if he won, Rhaegar would release Lyanna. The question is, tough, if Rhaegar was a criminal willing to use his royal privilege to kidnap the daughter of a Great Lord, why believe he would actually agree to such a duel? And if he agreed, why believe he would actually go along with the terms and not just order his goons to beat the stupid one defying him?As it stands - The banners had to be called and thousands died anyway. He was ineffective. He was stupid.I don't get the "he shouldn't have tried to duel Rhaegar" approach. He had no way of knowing Rhaegar wasn't in the Red Keep. If Rhaegar had been there, he would have won the duel and left.Even if Rhaegar were in the Red Keep, Aerys would have done the same thing. Even he were in the Red Keep and Brandon was right and he did kidnap and rape Lyanna, it's much more probable he'd order the Kingsguard to beat him up and kill/imprison him. Even if he'd accept the duel, it wasn't guaranteed Rhaegar lose. Even if Rhaegar lost, there was no guarantee he'd actually surrender Lyanna.Brandon's actions and choices all operate on the beliefs that either he was so awesome that he could take the Red Keep by himself or Rhaegar would be so noble that a duel would solve everything. Both are stupid belief worthy of early-aGoT Sansa. Hence, Brandon is stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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