Tywin as a battle commander

[King Doug]

I don't know that Tywin was feared all around the Seven Kingdoms. I would argue that he was only feared in the Westerlands and maybe the Riverlands.

Tywin was competent. But he's been elevated to a level that is not evident, therefore he is being overrated. If Tywin had been great in other wars, we would know about it. Just like we know about the Blackfish and Barristan the Bold during the war of the Ninepenny Kings. And about Robert and Stannis Baratheon, and Ned during Robert's Rebellion. During the last two major wars Tywin sat out of one and wasn't spectacular on the battlefield in the second.

No one doubts that he was cunning and had a good grasp of politics and knew how to create and exploit turmoil, but with regards to the battlefield he wasn't great. I would place his pillaging of the Riverlands in this category, as it displays his cunning by catching the Riverlands unawares. But this differs from facing an enemy on the battlefield, which is where your battlefield bonafides are made.

Fair point about previous wars, but we may not have heard more about it since we already have a lot of background information about Tywin. His reputation was already established for the readers, so why delve into his military prowess more when it is already established. When we were told about the Blackfish's experience, we needed the additional info because he was an unknown commodity. More info was given about Barristan because we needed to know more background and why he was considered a living legend. I just think there is more to Tywin's experience than we know, his reputation had to come from somewhere.

I also think the criticism of his command of a battlefield is a little unfair. Every battle he commanded, he won. With the exception of the Battle of the Fords. But I'm not convinced that wasn't his plan to begin with. When Roose Bolton led the bulk of the Northern army against him, you guys are all pretending that Roose didn't try to win. He isn't going to march in, sacrifice a few thousand, then run away. Keep in mind, only the Lords/leaders of that army are the ones that know that their march was a distraction. The thousands of troops were fighting to win, and fighting for their lives. The numbers weren't that skewed in the Lannister's favor; the lions had roughly 20,000 while the wolves had 15-16,000. Roose was trying to win, not merely distract.

Theon Greyjoy took over Winterfell before Blackwater. Even if plans didn't initially change that was the beginning of the end for Robb Stark and it is also when I believed Roose decided to fully betray the King in the North. They did affect the war, Roose says it himself in ADWD

Tywin also loses a battle to Edmure Tully who had an inferior army, and he almost managed to kill Tywin.

I don't agree with that statement. I think Roose was true to Robb until the Blackwater. Fighting the Lannisters 1-on-1 was winnable. But fighting the Tyrells also, not so much.

[Chaircat Meow]

@King Doug, yeah, its pretty clear, I think, that Robb didn't think his foot was incapable of achieving victory. He did say to Cat while organizing the campaign that he wanted to give the Greatjon command of the foot and the honour of smashing Lord Tywin. Admittedly he was sanguine about his chances here, part of the reason for his overall strategy, but no one was treating it like a foregone conclusion. Roose also could just have retreated back to the Twins when Tywin got close, rather than engage, as the deception would have largely done its work by then. Instead he tried a surprise attack, a clear attempt to beat Tywin's superior force.

Sometimes an outnumbered force of infantry could defeat a larger, more balanced army of knights and foot, the battle of Bannockburn is an example. We still say Edward I was a good general even though his triumph at Falkirk was less impressive, when numbers and so on are taken into consideration, than Tywin's victory at the Green Fork appears to have been.

Edited for spelling.

[Barty]

@King Doug, yeah, its pretty clear, I think, that Robb didn't think his foot was incapable of achieving victory. He did say to Cat while organizing the campaign that he wanted to give the Greatjon command of the foot and the honour of smashing Lord Tywin. Admittedly he was sanguine about his chances here, part of the reason for his overall strategy, but no one was treating it like a foregone conclusion. Roose also could just have retreated back to the Twins when Tywin got close, rather than engage, as the deception would have largely done its work by then. Instead he tried a surprise attack, a clear attempt to beat Tywin's superior force.

Sometimes an outnumbered force of infantry could defeat a larger, more balanced army of knights and foot, the battle of Bannockburn is an example. We still say Edward I was a good general even though his triumph at Falkirk was less impressive, when numbers and so on are taken into consideration, than Tywin's victory at the Green Fork appears to have been.

Edited for spelling.

But was Roose really trying to win? - He's a cautious man as we've been told many times, He doesnt seem to be really the type who would try to defeat Tywin Lannister in a surprise attack especially when he is outnumbered and doesnt have any heavy horse.... Also by the relatively few number casualties( Roose was reported to have managed to bring back together the northern foot in good order) It doesnt seem he was trying to really beat Tywin - only maybe to see if he could surprise him with a night's march and when he saw he couldnt he backed down.

And btw Robb was only quoting the Greatjon when he said that - He himself knew that chances of victory on the green fork are slim to none.

[Barty]

As for Oxcross I think its said Robb takes only his horse west and these are the effective 'professional' part of the army, the knights in other words (or, heavy horse, for the North) whereas its explicit Stafford just had raw levies.

If winning a crushing victory through use of the element of surprise is really child's play all this shows is that kids should be very good at being generals.

He would have been credited for the surprise factor if he had done anything to deserve it.( Like Robb managed to surprise Jaime and Stafford). But Stannis doesnt have any outriders near king's Landing because he's approaching from the sea and Tywin had nothing to do with the Tyrell alliance or the Ghost of Renly because of which many of Stannis' bannermen defected. All Tywin managed to do was get beaten in his attempt to save his homeland and then find out his daughter is in danger so suddenly change direction, be pleasantly surprised when a tyrell army comes up to him and says lets be buddies and then ,as I previously stated, shout charge.

[Chaircat Meow]

He would have been credited for the surprise factor if he had done anything to deserve it.( Like Robb managed to surprise Jaime and Stafford). But Stannis doesnt have any outriders near king's Landing because he's approaching from the sea and Tywin had nothing to do with the Tyrell alliance or the Ghost of Renly because of which many of Stannis' bannermen defected. All Tywin managed to do was get beaten in his attempt to save his homeland and then find out his daughter is in danger so suddenly change direction, be pleasantly surprised when a tyrell army comes up to him and says lets be buddies and then ,as I previously stated, shout charge.

Well Stannis ought to have outriders on the other side of the river, just as Jaime and Stafford ought to have had more scouts. I think it was stated pretty clearly that Robb never snuck up on commanders who were especially good at maintaining a watch on the enemie's movements. Also, it occurs the best time to surprise someone is when they don't have outriders in a position to spot your advance so I'm not sure I even get your point. Tyrion obviously figured out how Stannis would attack KL, from the river, with his army to the south, hence no outriders, so why not Tywin?

Personally I think Stannis' plan was ridiculous from start to finish but besieging KL like he was puts you in difficulties just as besieging RR causes you problems. Both Tywin and Robb take advantage of their enemies when they are at their most vulnerable, which, from his inactivity at HH, Tywin had been planning before he got wind of Stannis' hold up at SE.

I'm not going to argue about the 'all you need to do is shout charge' issue, you could say the same for the Battle of the Camps. We are not told about BW in much detail, as GrrM focuses on Tyrion's deeds just before.

Strangely enough Tywin's battles are not always won by him alone but by other folks too. Shock horror. Like Robb's victory at the WW was essentially facilitated by Cat's negotiating skills and most of his movements from then on expertly screened by the Blackfish. I'm not complaining about the direwolves either but most generals don't have preternatural scouts as their pets.

[Chaircat Meow]

But was Roose really trying to win? - He's a cautious man as we've been told many times, He doesnt seem to be really the type who would try to defeat Tywin Lannister in a surprise attack especially when he is outnumbered and doesnt have any heavy horse.... Also by the relatively few number casualties( Roose was reported to have managed to bring back together the northern foot in good order) It doesnt seem he was trying to really beat Tywin - only maybe to see if he could surprise him with a night's march and when he saw he couldnt he backed down.

And btw Robb was only quoting the Greatjon when he said that - He himself knew that chances of victory on the green fork are slim to none.

I seriously doubt a cautious person tries to sneak up on a foe, putting his army in easy striking distance of theirs without this being an attempt to win. If Bolton gives up when this move is discovered, so what? He didn't retreat, he stood and had his lines smashed like glass before a hammer when Tywin charged. When in this situation I'm not sure he even has much option but to try and win. Its true he might have concluded the day was lost after his initial ruse failed, but this doesn't seem too important. Lots of battles are lost before they start when the initial plan goes awry.

He does say to Robb before the RW he lost a third or so of his men on the GF and Tyrion reports a lot of captives after the battle.

I interpreted Robb's attitude to appointing the Greatjon to mean he felt there was a chance of success, else he wouldn't have appointed someone who was going to go all out for victory and would have lacked the sense to conduct a more orderly retreat and husband his forces later. Of course, when Cat points it out to him he see the sense in picking the more cautious man. So sanguine about his chances, as I said, but I don't think he was certain he was going to lose though, and unlike in the show, he is sending by far the greater part of the army, maybe 15,000 men against Tywin. You don't just piss that away if its totally hopeless and you're sure you'll get utterly crushed.

Think of it this way. Robb doesn't feel he has an especially good chance of beating Tywin with even the whole force. He sees an opportunity to surprise the vulnerable and unsuspecting force at RR which he determines to take advantage of. His foot can't even get there in time to affect surprise anyway and he needs to not tip off Tywin too soon. Doesn't mean he was convinced engaging Tywin was useless though, just that, given his original chances weren't the best, it seemed more sensible to spread the risk and this way he has a shot at victory on both fronts.

[Frey Pie]

Well was it not more sesible for Robb to attack Jaime and gain himself troops and a powerful castle? If hed marched against Tywin, even if he won, he would have taken serious casualties and still had his most powerful allies under siege with no chance of reinforcement

I think Robb thought there was a small chance of success for Roose/Greatjon against Tywin but i dont think he was counting on it. I think hed be just as happy if Roose held Tywin up and never gave battle

[Chaircat Meow]

Well was it not more sesible for Robb to attack Jaime and gain himself troops and a powerful castle? If hed marched against Tywin, even if he won, he would have taken serious casualties and still had his most powerful allies under siege with no chance of reinforcement

I think Robb thought there was a small chance of success for Roose/Greatjon against Tywin but i dont think he was counting on it. I think hed be just as happy if Roose held Tywin up and never gave battle

You make good points.

I agree Robb was not counting on victory.

I don't agree with the argument that he didn't want to win on the east side of the GF, or that Roose wasn't trying to win.

But I think you're spot on to say that if the purpose of Bolton's army was purely diversionary, then fighting a battle makes no sense.

Tywin finds out about Robb's deception at lunch on the day of the battle and heads off back to the Ruby Ford straight away. By the time he gets back there, using forced marches, to the cost of his army, the battle is long done (he gets word of it at the crossroads inn). Granted, Bolton's timing might have been out, but assuming this is not the case, he can't have thought he was buying Robb time or furthering the deception to any useful purpose by engaging Tywin. Indeed, fighting and losing a battle gives the game away to Tywin through infomation he can glean from northern prisoners. If you want to only deceive, not win, you refuse battle and either fall back or pick a strong position that Tywin has to march to to attack.

Therefore Roose must have just been doing the obvious, giving battle with the aim to win.

I'll also just note that Tywin doesn't pursue Roose because he needs to dash south at once and the Stark foot only reform at the causeway. If Tywin hadn't dashed away after the battle, the northern defeat, already substantial, could have been made very severe with a longer pursuit.

It would certainly have done Bolton and Robb more good to not fight a battle if they were pinning all their hopes on Robb's army as Robb would then still have a full, formidable army to threaten Tywin's rear, rather than a force too weak to do much apart from block the route north.

So I'd say the GF does count as a substantial Lannister victory, even if Robb generally got the better of things in that campaign (which he did of course). Bolton was not furthering Robb's western campaign by fighting that battle, he was trying to beat Tywin fair and square on the Green Fork and his defeat set the Stark cause back. This is unlike Duskendale, for instance, which really was just a throw away and constitutes Tarly's second battlefield success.

[King Doug]

This is unlike Duskendale, for instance, which really was just a throw away and constitutes Tarly's second battlefield success.

Tarly is even more of an enigma to me. He's widely respected, but the only 2 victories we know of were meaningless victories (Ashford during Robert's Rebellion, and Duskendale of course). I think his reputation comes form his capability as a warrior as well as his battlefield command. Also the fact he leads from the vanguard gains respect.

[Frey Pie]

You make good points.

I agree Robb was not counting on victory.

I don't agree with the argument that he didn't want to win on the east side of the GF, or that Roose wasn't trying to win.

But I think you're spot on to say that if the purpose of Bolton's army was purely diversionary, then fighting a battle makes no sense.

Tywin finds out about Robb's deception at lunch on the day of the battle and heads off back to the Ruby Ford straight away. By the time he gets back there, using forced marches, to the cost of his army, the battle is long done (he gets word of it at the crossroads inn). Granted, Bolton's timing might have been out, but assuming this is not the case, he can't have thought he was buying Robb time or furthering the deception to any useful purpose by engaging Tywin. Indeed, fighting and losing a battle gives the game away to Tywin through infomation he can glean from northern prisoners. If you want to only deceive, not win, you refuse battle and either fall back or pick a strong position that Tywin has to march to to attack.

Therefore Roose must have just been doing the obvious, giving battle with the aim to win.

I'll also just note that Tywin doesn't pursue Roose because he needs to dash south at once and the Stark foot only reform at the causeway. If Tywin hadn't dashed away after the battle, the northern defeat, already substantial, could have been made very severe with a longer pursuit.

It would certainly have done Bolton and Robb more good to not fight a battle if they were pinning all their hopes on Robb's army as Robb would then still have a full, formidable army to threaten Tywin's rear, rather than a force too weak to do much apart from block the route north.

So I'd say the GF does count as a substantial Lannister victory, even if Robb generally got the better of things in that campaign (which he did of course). Bolton was not furthering Robb's western campaign by fighting that battle, he was trying to beat Tywin fair and square on the Green Fork and his defeat set the Stark cause back. This is unlike Duskendale, for instance, which really was just a throw away and constitutes Tarly's second battlefield success.

Thanks and you do too. Its interesting to speculate and is a bit of an unknown when Roose decided to betray Robb. One thing for sure is i dont think many Dreadfort men were lost in the attack.

And id never really thought about this but why did Tywin not follow up his win? As you say Robbs main strength was on the rout just after being beaten. Surely Tywin knew both from enemy numbers and his prisoners that all Robbs foot was just beaten off. If he pressed his advantage and annihalated Roose then hes almost got it won. Robb wouldnt be able to go west and Stafford coulf raise his levies. Even with his cavalry Tywin could have given chase to Roose.

A military fault? Was he frightened by the loss of his son? Too many injured?

[King Doug]

Thanks and you do too. Its interesting to speculate and is a bit of an unknown when Roose decided to betray Robb. One thing for sure is i dont think many Dreadfort men were lost in the attack.

And id never really thought about this but why did Tywin not follow up his win? As you say Robbs main strength was on the rout just after being beaten. Surely Tywin knew both from enemy numbers and his prisoners that all Robbs foot was just beaten off. If he pressed his advantage and annihalated Roose then hes almost got it won. Robb wouldnt be able to go west and Stafford coulf raise his levies. Even with his cavalry Tywin could have given chase to Roose.

A military fault? Was he frightened by the loss of his son? Too many injured?

I agree that not many Bolton men died at the battle, they were probably with him in the rear guard.

But Tywin didn't pursue Bolton because he retreated to the Twins. Taking those castles would have been difficult, time consuming, and costly. He also had already gotten word that Jaime was defeated. Robb Stark would have gotten word that Tywin was pursuing Bolton and attacked him in the rear. Can't win a battle when you're surrounded. So he went back to Harrenhal, a fortress that he could hold indefinitely.

[Frey Pie]

I agree that not many Bolton men died at the battle, they were probably with him in the rear guard.

But Tywin didn't pursue Bolton because he retreated to the Twins. Taking those castles would have been difficult, time consuming, and costly. He also had already gotten word that Jaime was defeated. Robb Stark would have gotten word that Tywin was pursuing Bolton and attacked him in the rear. Can't win a battle when you're surrounded. So he went back to Harrenhal, a fortress that he could hold indefinitely.

Ya i missed that he retreated to the Twins. Still how far away is the battle site from the Twins? Roose is in a very bad position on his way back. He has no cavalry and beaten demoralised troops to cover the retreat. Surely Tywin could have forced the matter?

It seems to me if he wanted to he could have

[King Doug]

Ya i missed that he retreated to the Twins. Still how far away is the battle site from the Twins? Roose is in a very bad position on his way back. He has no cavalry and beaten demoralised troops to cover the retreat. Surely Tywin could have forced the matter?

It seems to me if he wanted to he could have

Sure he could have raided the retreating troops. But to what end? Take out a thousand or so troops, while at the same time going farther and farther away from Harrenhal. Also at the same time allowing Robb Stark to sever his supply lines. Benefit does not outway the risk.

[Frey Pie]

Sure he could have raided the retreating troops. But to what end? Take out a thousand or so troops, while at the same time going farther and farther away from Harrenhal. Also at the same time allowing Robb Stark to sever his supply lines. Benefit does not outway the risk.

Not necessarily. Take a leaf outta Robbs book and split your forces. His cavalry will be the ones harrying. March the infantry to harrenhal. A thousand seems low to me. Tywin has in and around 8000 cavalry. Bolton is very approachable. Especially right after the battle when men are fleeing. Add these casualties to the wounded who wont make the march and desertions which are inevitable and you have a significant ammount of casualties.

In any case the Twins are lightly held. IIRC 4000Freys left with Robbs men. Thats the vast majority of their strength. Stop Bolton getting there by forcing battle. Im pretty sure they could be taken but at a cost and im not sure of their value in comparison to Harrenhal. Surely though you must see the value in mounting some sort of chace?

[Chaircat Meow]

I think the time Tywin gets various pieces of information is important in explaining this.

As I recall from GoT Tywin believes he has beaten the whole Stark army just after the end of the battle. He is then, very speedily, disillusioned and the deception is revealed.

So 1) he may not have been overly concerned about a pursuit because the whole Stark force was in ignominious rout, as far as he was concerned, and with the Tullys already beaten there was no pressing need to add to the victory he had already won. Also, correct me if I am wrong about this, doesn't he still think he can pacify the Starks with Ned and the two girls.

2) He learns about Robb before he can organize a longer pursuit and he decides to take the army south to try and reach Riverrun in time to save Jaime, which, to be honest, given the distances involved, is pretty desperate but it does explain the lack of a pursuit.

I don't see that Robb could have the time to take him in the rear at this point if he pursues Bolton for some of the way back to the Twins, to get all the way up the GF from the south would take ages from RR. Also, he wouldn't really be surrounded by northmen in this scenario as Bolton's army was badly beaten up.

The unbelievable thing about it all is that the lannisters don't notice the paucity of northern horse during the battle.

[So1ar]

• In the war of the five kings the Lannisters were the only ones not to win a single battle on their own merits. Not too impressive from the house of the feared Tywin Lannister, huh? Robb Stark had inferior numbers.
  

he won at the green fork against roose.

[The Trumpet of Joramun]

he won at the green fork against roose.

Yes I forgot to mention this, I think i mentioned it in a later post.

[Ragnorak]

And as a "battle commander" Tywin lost, what, one skirmish? Tywin was forced into the war by Catelyn, Jaime, and Ned's actions. He didn't choose to start a war, but he saw that one was imminent and took initiative.

Forced? What Cat warged into him and made the choices for him? He owned Pycelle, Robert owed him millions in gold, and his daughter was queen. He had no other options? Please. No one was attacking him with any military force or even assembling a host yet. He was the military aggressor and therefore had the option to attack in a time, place, and manner of his own choosing. He chose and if the circumstances were bad like you asserted then he chose bad circumstances.

One skirmish? Let's put aside that he lost two entire Lannister hosts. That they are not under his direct command doesn't matter. (Robb could have picked the more reckless Greatjon but chose Roose and owns some credit for both the caution and the later betrayal.) Tywin picked the leaders, gave their deployment orders, and was officially their CIC. It was all his strategy. He fought part of Robb's army under Bolton's command which according to Robb's own battle plan Tywin was supposed to beat. Robb wanted to lure Tywin further away from Jaime and he took the bait. There is no victory in that win. Robb's vision happened Tywin's did not. Tywin's vision was to wait at Harrenhall and have Robb's strength ebb over time or force Robb to march on him at Harrenhall. Neither happened. Robb marched on the westerlands and forced Tywin to come to him. Robb's vision happened Tywin's did not. Tywin planned on marching to meet Robb which included crossing a river. Tywin couldn't cross. Edmure's vision happened Tywin's did not. Tyrion, LF and the Tyrells formulated and executed a strategy and invited Tywin to participate. He had no part in any that. The victory came because half of Stannis's army switched sides which was all because of Loras and Renly's armor. Tywin beat Edmure out of the gate and was not responsible for a single military victory afterwards.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of that first sentence is. So Tyrion made a political move, that reflects poorly on Tywin why? And Tywins death was the result of his mental abuse of Tyrion, not a result of the Tyrell alliance or even Joffrey's death.

LF has no control of the riverlands to use against the Lannisters. Just a promise of position. The Vale wasn't given to him, he took it when they sent him to seduce Lysa. His hold on both is tenuous at best.

The point was that the "first class scheming" you attributed to Tywin was actually done by Tyrion, LF, and Loras. The reward of Harrenhall and Lord Paramount was approved by Tywin. LF set up and betrayed Tywin just as badly if not worse than he did Ned yet this is somehow viewed as a good move by Tywin. LF killed Tywin's King, stole his Stark heir, set his son up to take the fall, and was rewarded for it by Tywin. If you want to credit Tywin with the scheme let's look at the actual scheming.

Forgive me, I forgot Stannis ran away to the North. The War of Five Kings is over, Tywin won. Look it up. No, he didn't wipe out all his enemies Rains of Castamere style, but he won the war. Stannis is fighting in a new conflict.

What allies? Maybe I just can't think of it, but I can't remember a single ally who has changed their opinion on the Lannisters because of the Red Wedding. Remember, Westeros thinks of that as a Frey betrayal.

As to the odds, at the beggining of the war 4 great houses were trying to destroy Tywins 1 great house. He should have been crushed. But at the end of the war Tywin was left standing. If that's not beating the odds, then the saying has no meaning.

It was never 4 on 1 against Tywin. Renly was against Stannis, the Lannisters and wanted Robb to bend the knee or face war. Stannis was the same way. Did you miss the whole Stannis killing Renly part of the story?

Stannis was not vanquished. He still has an army and a claim. There is no new conflict-- there was no peace treaty, there was never an end to hostilities. As a matter of fact, Stannis is the only one of the original 5 Kings the war was named after that still draws breath. You also may have noticed Tywin is dead and Stannis lives.

The first new ally is Manderly. Manderly tells Davos that if he sails to Skagos to get Rickon that White Harbor will declare for Stannis. He also seems to be just a tad upset about the Red Wedding throughout that whole conversation. Jon says that if Stannis can get White Harbor the rest of the North would follow. Manderly himself says "I can deliver King Stannis the allegiance of all the lands east of the White Knife, from Widow's Watch and Ramsgate and the headwaters of the Broken Branch." That means "allies." The Northern mountain clans are not following Stannis because he's "next in line." They want revenge for the Red Wedding and Cafe Stannis put it on the menu. So yes, the Red Wedding has already driven allies into the Stannis camp and more are likely to follow.

Do you actually think everyone doesn't know Tywin was involved in the Red Wedding? Every Northman at the Red Wedding died or was imprisoned but the Boltons. Roose Bolton goes from leading Robb's eastern army to the Lannister pick for Lord Paramount of the North and has the Lannister King legitimize Roose's bastard son and gives Roose's son Winterfell while a Lannister is married to Sansa. People don't suspect Tywin was behind the Red Wedding-- they know it.

Tywin is feared because he has a big army and is utterly ruthless and unmerciful. But there is absolutely no evidence that he is more than an average battlefield commander. Stannis, with only Dragonstone and a few minor Lords, is more feared than Renly who was currently marching on KL with 100,000 troops. There is no comparable evidence in the text to point to with Tywin. He beat his father's vassals. You are supposed to be able to beat your vassals, that's why they're the vassals and you're the Lord. He beat Duskendale with the forces of the entire rest of the Seven Kingdoms at his disposal. He won battles he was supposed to win so he's likely competent. But we're never given any indication of "brilliance" like we are for Stannis, Tarly, and even Robb.

[Frey Pie]

I think the time Tywin gets various pieces of information is important in explaining this.

As I recall from GoT Tywin believes he has beaten the whole Stark army just after the end of the battle. He is then, very speedily, disillusioned and the deception is revealed.

So 1) he may not have been overly concerned about a pursuit because the whole Stark force was in ignominious rout, as far as he was concerned, and with the Tullys already beaten there was no pressing need to add to the victory he had already won. Also, correct me if I am wrong about this, doesn't he still think he can pacify the Starks with Ned and the two girls.

2) He learns about Robb before he can organize a longer pursuit and he decides to take the army south to try and reach Riverrun in time to save Jaime, which, to be honest, given the distances involved, is pretty desperate but it does explain the lack of a pursuit.

I don't see that Robb could have the time to take him in the rear at this point if he pursues Bolton for some of the way back to the Twins, to get all the way up the GF from the south would take ages from RR. Also, he wouldn't really be surrounded by northmen in this scenario as Bolton's army was badly beaten up.

The unbelievable thing about it all is that the lannisters don't notice the paucity of northern horse during the battle.

Point one could be very true. But this is Tywin. Hes ruthless. Jon Connington says Tywin would have won the battle of the bells because he would have set fire to the whole town. I think if Tywin could send Ned back to a bloody and battered host or back to the relatively intact army of Roose he would prefer the first choice. I think he would have pursued Roose but before he had it organised he learnt Jaime had been beaten and taken and this clouded his judgement

[Chaircat Meow]

Thanks and you do too. Its interesting to speculate and is a bit of an unknown when Roose decided to betray Robb. One thing for sure is i dont think many Dreadfort men were lost in the attack.

And id never really thought about this but why did Tywin not follow up his win? As you say Robbs main strength was on the rout just after being beaten. Surely Tywin knew both from enemy numbers and his prisoners that all Robbs foot was just beaten off. If he pressed his advantage and annihalated Roose then hes almost got it won. Robb wouldnt be able to go west and Stafford coulf raise his levies. Even with his cavalry Tywin could have given chase to Roose.

A military fault? Was he frightened by the loss of his son? Too many injured?

I'm also unclear how crucial it is that an army blocks the route north. Cat seemed to think it was very important in her pre-battle advice to Robb but Ned told Cat Moat Cailin could be held with very inconsiderable forces. So even if Tywin did take more of a toll on Roose's army breaking into the north might not have been made easier. Moreover, Tywin wouldn't want to march to Winterfell, it would be a really terrible plan overall and so the north was probably pretty safe, at least as regards Tywin's army.

Tywin would also have to sit between the Twins and the Moat to block Robb's communications with WF even if he totally destroys Bolton, which he isn't going to do either, esp not with the trouble in the south.