Hugely disappointed in someone I had come to "admire"....SPOILERS

[KhaleesiDany]

Never trust a Lannister.

[Porcelain Steel]

I can't remember where I heard or read this, but some readers have suggested that Tywin may have despised Tyrion partly because Tyrion was the most like Tywin himself of the three children. I mean, I think he still hates Tyrion primarily because he "killed" Joanna, but this pours salt on the wound.

Tywin and Tyrion have the same cunning when it comes to matters of governance, as opposed to Jaime who solves problems with his sword and Cersei who likes to give orders but doesn't understand the complexities of ruling near as well as she thinks she does. Tywin and Tyrion are both intelligent and like to read, something that doesn't describe the other two. And Tywin and Tyrion have the same weakness for whores. The difference is Tywin feels shame about being weak and bringing dishonour to his House, and Tyrion is quite open and accepting about it. Tywin can't stand to be reminded of this and that's why he reacts so harshly to the whore problem.

I agree with this. I think that a big part of Tywin's characterization is shame . He is ashamed of his fathers 'weakness' and that's what motivates him to become what he is. I think Tywin sees Tyrion as a walking manifestation of the parts of his own personality that he is ashamed of, maybe even sees him as a punishment for having what he considers to be weak thoughts/feelings. My favorite part of Tywin's death sequence is right after Tyrion shoots him, when Tywin starts to tell Tyrion he is no son of his and Tyrion says :

" Now that's where you're wrong, father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small"

I have to hijack this thread a bit.

I still don't understand why Tyrion in the end tells Jaime that he killed Joffy. Why risk it all with a lie? Jaime might be the only person who would believe him if he said no.

I also think this was just to hurt Jamie, but this is one of the moments in the series that I just hated reading. I've always appreciated the relationship of mutual admiration between the Lannister brothers, and I'm holding out hope that they might meet again and have a chance to repair it.

[Brindled]

i also just finished the book, and seemingly wanted it to never end.

the second tyrion heard the woman in the hand's room i figured whom it would be. however, i had accidentally come across spoilers here in the forum of the tywin's murder, so that also wasn't a surprise.

it had not occurred to me that the secret passage was tywin's doing, but it makes a lot of sense. tywin was never really high on my list of favorites.

i'm still in the dark about who sent the catspaw to kill bran. jaime and tyrion have surmised it to be joffrey, but that seems too convenient. i will have to reread where arya overhears the two men speaking where the dragon skulls are located.

arya tends to disappoint me most. she seems to be going down a dark path, which the crone in the woods foreshadows. i guess it's not quite as bad as i make it sound, but i was hoping she'd reunite with nymeria in this book and do some damage.

on to AFFC.

[David Selig]

OP, let me get this straight - you were OK with Tywin ordering the mass slaughter and raping of thousands of civilians in the Riverlands, and Tysha's gang rape, but him having sex with a prostitute was tremendously disappointing? OK...

BTW, there's a theory that Varys organised the whole thing with Shae in Tywin's room to provoke Tyrion to murder him and actually Tywin wasn't having sex with her.

[LuisDantas]

Not sure how anyone can admire Tywin, myself. Ever since he ordered Gregor and company to storm the Riverlands back in AGOT at least. And the way he treats his children is beyond despicable.

[ivor the swine]

He knew he probably wasnt gonna see the end of the war and with his grandson gone I was hoping of a bit more compassion from him. He knew his victory in Blackwater was the last of his luck. It seemed like after Jaimes return and the Purple Wedding, he felt the end of the Lion's was close.

[Brindled]

BTW, there's a theory that Varys organised the whole thing with Shae in Tywin's room to provoke Tyrion to murder him and actually Tywin wasn't having sex with her.

i'm guessing the more appropriate place to discuss said theory would be its source, but how could varys even hope that tyrion would consider killing tywin in the first place? it seems like a long shot, but obviously tywin would have wanted to conceal her presence in his room initially. which would mean that varys would have known, more than likely, that she would be in tywin's chambers. again, though, how could varys ever have hoped that tyrion would confront his father? maybe it was a gamble varys was hoping would occur, but what were the odds that tyrion could actually have won such a confrontation?

also, i've wondered why tywin never screamed out for help after being shot. anyway, without knowing the actual layout of the tower it would be hard to be sure if he'd be heard or not.

the "what if's" are so hard to deal with when considering fiction. *sigh* i guess that's the fun of it.

[Corvinus85]

minor spoiler from AFFC

Aunt Genna tells Jaime that she always considered Tyrion to be Tywin's son, not him. I guess this includes whoring.

[AegonTargaryen]

OP, let me get this straight - you were OK with Tywin ordering the mass slaughter and raping of thousands of civilians in the Riverlands, and Tysha's gang rape, but him having sex with a prostitute was tremendously disappointing? OK....

"Despite this, I had come to admire the man both for his military and political mind, but also for what seemed like very honourable personal life, especially compared to guys like Robert and Jaime."

Not sure what you're getting at, you're stating the obvious. I mentioned and acknowledged in my post that Tywin ordered some horrid atrocities, and listed the murder of Elia and her children as my example. You simply listed some other ones.

What I said is that despite his atrocities, Tywin was a brilliant leader and tactician. Most of all, despite restoring and building the power of house Lannister, being the hand of the king, and being by many measures the most powerful and wealthy man in Westeros, Tywin seemed to lead an exemplary personal life. We are lead to believe that he loved his wife deeply, and treated her with affection and respect uncharacteristic of his time. We are lead to believe that the man never drank or whored, even after her death. What disappointed me is that the way I understood Tywin as a character was completely off.

[A Bear covered in Fluff]

I'm not going to spoil anything from affc but i believe the point Tyrion made that he and his father were truely identical is brought up again by one of my favorite lannisters :)

thats all I'm going to say so coming back and re-reading this and realizing that tywin had that tunnel made, clicked that additional scene for me. So thanks for putting the pieces together :)

[Big Daddy Dave]

It wasn't until I read this thread that the small bit about the tunnel being dug by a former Hand hit me as being Tywin. I was thinking it had been around much longer, though Tywin being a two time Hand was always on my mind. I should have seen it, and I didn't, even with Tyirion finding Shaye in his father's bed.

And as for it being a disappointment, it wasn't to me. It just added another layer to a man that was built up to readers as this serious guy and made him more interesting. Turns out in the end he had the same weaknesses many other men have. In addition to not being able to shit gold.

[par]

The gang rape ofTaysha and the murder of the Targaryen children are only details.

The act for which the man should be despised is its decision to start a war and put the inhabitants of the Riverrun to the sword for the sake of the petty interest of his house.