[SPOILERS] RW: Robb Deserved It.

[Pope Killdragon]

He went back on his word. He was warned time and again, and reminded that not was he promised to marry a Frey but also that the late Lord Walder was a fickle person. I think that he was wrong to break his word for the first pretty maid to keep his eye and I know Ned is an aldulterer but he'd never go so far as to marry the girl and certainly not with a kingdom at stake. I still think what the Freys did was disgusting. Breaking all laws of hospitality and what not. But look at it from there prospective. Lord Walder wanted a Frey Queen in the North. He sent his men to die on those terms and now they're to die for Riverrun? What Robb did showed arrogance, stupidity, and a disregard for the Freys. Basically telling them that they meant little and less to them and he could break his word as he saw fit. What the Freys did was bad but what good is a king who breaks his word?

[JimWolf]

He deserved to lose the support of the Freys. He deserved to lose the tactical position of The Twins. He did not deserve to be betrayed by his bannerman Roose Bolton. He did not deserve to be murdered and his army slaughtered after being given guest right under the roof of Walder Frey.

Something that also vexes me regarding the Freys. Walder Frey agreed to have a daughter be wife to the Warden of the North, not a queen. Though Robb's slight was extreme Walder Frey could still look forward to having a son squire the king perhaps becoming a member of his Kingsguard (if he formed one), his grandson would marry a princess of the North and two more Freys would be wards of the King and could look forward to significant marriage pacts. He then agreed to having a daughter marry his Liege Lord, an eventual grandson being Liege Lord of the Riverlands. So Walder Frey was going to be one of the strongest bannermen of the Kingdom of the North even after losing a queen daughter. He gave that up for what exactly? Hated by virtually the entire North and Riverlands who know view his house with contempt? He trades one Liege Lord Edmure Tully for another Petyr Baelish? He was a fool.

Back to your original point, if Robb got what he deserved and more, what does Walder Frey and Roose Bolton deserve?

[AegonTargaryen]

He deserved to lose the support of the Freys. He deserved to lose the tactical position of The Twins. He did not deserve to be betrayed by his bannerman Roose Bolton. He did not deserve to be murdered and his army slaughtered after being given guest right under the roof of Walder Frey.

titcr ;)

[Robb_]

Something that also vexes me regarding the Freys. Walder Frey agreed to have a daughter be wife to the Warden of the North, not a queen. Though Robb's slight was extreme Walder Frey could still look forward to having a son squire the king perhaps becoming a member of his Kingsguard (if he formed one), his grandson would marry a princess of the North and two more Freys would be wards of the King and could look forward to significant marriage pacts. He then agreed to having a daughter marry his Liege Lord, an eventual grandson being Liege Lord of the Riverlands.

I'd never even thought about it like that. I really hope we get some justice in later books.. but the way it's going I can see Sansa being the only Stark left alive at the end of the series, if any.

[Pope Killdragon]

Well..... My opinion has been swayed..... Still a lustful, fool boy though.

[Christopher]

Well..... My opinion has been swayed..... Still a lustful, fool boy though.

I'm not sure you can call it lust. Can you really blame a 16 YO for falling in love and marrying Jeyne? I understand he was betrothed to a Frey of his choosing but he didn't deserve to be betrayed. Neither did Catelyn.

[~DarkHorse~]

He made poor political choices, almost as if he wasn't taught how to play the Game of Thrones and acted like a hormonal 16 year old....oh, wait he was!

Seriously, how can people think someone deserves to have their men and themselves cowardly murdered with no chance to defend themselves and have their pet dogs (wolves) head stitched to their beheaded body because they married the wrong girl?

Perhaps, the Freys did deserve some form of vengeance but they went overboard and that's putting it lightly.

urgh, too many people have disturbing views of justice.

[Blazfemur]

Robb advised catelyn to do whatever she could to get him to cross the twins. Catelyn did as such, to win the war and to get him crowned. this included a promise he was not aware of, but inevitably accepted. He accepted his fate to cross the twins, he knew the terms and conditions from crossing. He didnt have to cross at that point. If he didnt cross, he wouldnt have had to marry. But he did. Crossing, was his signing of the contract between him and walder frey.

I dont even blame catelyn, she did as she was instructed to do. Robb knew the terms, and crossed the bridge anyway.

Now, does robb deserve to die for breaking contract? Meh. It may have been harsh. I think Walder, Roose knew Robb was in over his head and Tywin wouldve crushed him should he get his hands on him. Why side with someone whose fate is sealed (and lies), when you can side with someone that not only holds the kingdom, but never breaks agreement?

Roose sided with Tywin because he knew Tywin was going to win. If he remained loyal, Roose and his Bolton house would be eliminated. Same with the Freys.

[theJoker501]

The Late Lord Frey, he had an eye for showing up just long enough to make sure he supported the winning side. The Freys are disgusting people to me I hope the entire lineage of the Freys gets wiped off the face of Westeros!

Another thing that bothers me is why couldn't Robb and the Northmen bypass the twins. I know that it's the only crossing, but if you look at the map, one could go through the Neck and completely bypass the Freys of the Crossing. Only thing I could think of is the convenience when they were hard pressed for time and maybe the neck was too rough to cross with an army(being bogs and swamps).

[Kaguya]

I don't agree that he deserved it per say, but at the same time i'm not really going to miss him, as i thought he was a boring character and a bland king

[C.T. Phipps]

Robb made a large number of mistakes.

* Kinslaying

* Oathbreaking

* Poor marriage match.

He's really a horrible military leader and his moralizing is dubious given the Karstarks killing the boys was monstrous but he had other options. He was just trying to overcompensate.

The Freys actions, however, were by the standards of Westeros a gross overreaction and probably obliterated Robb's faults in the eyes of the public. The Campbells still take **** in Scotland whenever romanticizing the past comes up for their similar crime.

[TinyNeedle]

I think Cat made a lot more mistakes than Robb did. But Robb was definitely too young to be a king, and I think he owes all his victories to his direwolf (it was stated somewhere that he miraculously knew how to best sneak up on his enemies, like a wolf, which leads to his warg powers).

When he crowned himself King, his ego went sky high and mixed with his Stark pride made him feel invincible. He probably had a little bit of a rebel inside him too, a bit like Jon. So with all this he piled up mistakes and got everyone against him.

ADD: Also, the reason he married the Westerling girl wasn't out of love, not even passion. She consoled him the night he learned about his brothers' "death", they shared a bed that night and the next morning he married her because it was an honorable thing to do. Stark's honor killed him, same as Ned.

[JLE]

The Crossing was needed so that Robb could bring his cavalry to the *west* side of the river, bypass Tywin's forces (which were on the east), and ride fast for Jaime's siege of Riverrun, getting there before Tywin could turn round. That's also why the move down the west had to be cavalry-only: infantry would have been too slow.

Which, of course, worked.

If the Crossing was blocked to Robb, he could still have marched his entire army down the eastern branch, and would have had to take Tywin head-on in battle (the tactic suggested initially by the Greatjon anyway). He also would not have had the support of the Freys, so he would not have had the numbers to win a head-on battle, and would have had to find some way to employ hit-and-retreat tactics by establishing a series of defensive positions that he could fall back to in turn, forcing Tywin to pay heavily for crossing them. (Which of course was what Roose Bolton was *supposed* to have done, rather than marching south overnight, to throw forces into a pitched battle he couldn't hope to win with only half the army, and that half tired from an overnight march.) Alternatively, he would have had to decoy Tywin into a deadly ambush - but Tywin is, of course, a much harder nut to crack than the impetuous Jaime: although Tywin might just have fallen for the belief that Robb was a totally green boy with no military understanding, and one underestimation can be fatal.

So, a high-risk strategy that, even then, depended at least on Frey *neutrality* - whereas they could have declared for Tywin, followed Robb south on the east bank, and assaulted Robb in the rear when Robb marched on Tywin? Not going to work. That's why Robb needed the Freys on his side.

Ironically... with the Freys on his side, Robb *just* might have actually had the numbers to take the Greatjon's advice, hit Tywin head-on and smash him first before marching to relieve Riverrun. If only because Tywin would have been prepared for the tactics but not the numbers, since he was *not* yet in contact with the Freys and expected them to remain neutral rather than declaring for Robb... But, again, it would have been risky, which is why Catelyn talked him out of it.

[King Wayne-1st of His Name]

I agree. The Red Wedding was also pretty telegraphed, especially now that I'm going through the books again for fun and not focused on passing the show to see if some of my hated characters die.

[Darkstar112]

"Another thing that bothers me is why couldn't Robb and the Northmen bypass the twins. I know that it's the only crossing, but if you look at the map, one could go through the Neck and completely bypass the Freys of the Crossing. Only thing I could think of is the convenience when they were hard pressed for time and maybe the neck was too rough to cross with an army(being bogs and swamps)."

without adding too much to what JLE has already put in the post above, also at that point urgency was also paramount as Ned was still alive and they needed to win both battles in front of them but also push onto Kings Landing as fast as possible.

I dont think that apart from the poor selection choice in marriage he made huge mistakes, my memories a bit vague, but if Edmure hadnt caused the strategy with Tywins forces to fail then Kings Landing could or would have fallen under attack from Stannis.

[Crowzeye]

I think Cat made a lot more mistakes than Robb did. But Robb was definitely too young to be a king, and I think he owes all his victories to his direwolf (it was stated somewhere that he miraculously knew how to best sneak up on his enemies, like a wolf, which leads to his warg powers).

When he crowned himself King, his ego went sky high and mixed with his Stark pride made him feel invincible. He probably had a little bit of a rebel inside him too, a bit like Jon. So with all this he piled up mistakes and got everyone against him.

ADD: Also, the reason he married the Westerling girl wasn't out of love, not even passion. She consoled him the night he learned about his brothers' "death", they shared a bed that night and the next morning he married her because it was an honorable thing to do. Stark's honor killed him, same as Ned.

It seems the only way to kill a Stark is an "Honour Trap" Heh

[Fostofina]

I really find it kind of irritating how they keep saying that he's just like Ned and all that. Ned happened to have married his brother's betrothed so he wouldn't break a pact. And if he had the chance to bargain for his daughter's safe return he would've definitely took it instead of keeping a hostage. IDK he wasn't one of my favorites anyway :dunno:

[Dorian Martell]

"Another thing that bothers me is why couldn't Robb and the Northmen bypass the twins. I know that it's the only crossing, but if you look at the map, one could go through the Neck and completely bypass the Freys of the Crossing. Only thing I could think of is the convenience when they were hard pressed for time and maybe the neck was too rough to cross with an army(being bogs and swamps)."

without adding too much to what JLE has already put in the post above, also at that point urgency was also paramount as Ned was still alive and they needed to win both battles in front of them but also push onto Kings Landing as fast as possible.

I dont think that apart from the poor selection choice in marriage he made huge mistakes, my memories a bit vague, but if Edmure hadnt caused the strategy with Tywins forces to fail then Kings Landing could or would have fallen under attack from Stannis.

They couldn't cross again until the ruby ford, where Tywin was waiting. They needed the feint to catch the army at Riverrun unawares. No matter how you slice it, they were outnumbered and had no tactical advantage. Tywin had troops time and hostages. Until Robb captured Jamie, the north had very little hope. The Crossing gave them troops, a tactical advantage and an ally at their back

[Darkstar112]

no they werent actually outnumbered + the freys

maybe bending the knee to Renly would have been the smart choice, but I dont think Robb desereved his outcome due to that.

[FakeJaqenH'ghar]

As a boy king, what can one really expect? His political prowess was far inferior to the lords and self proclaimed kings in Westeros and beyond, as it understandably would be for someone of his age. Some blame stupidity, others honor. I see it as a combination of both.

I don't think any of it matters though, because the Starks were doomed before Robert rode off to Winterfell seeking a new Hand. The values, beliefs, and dispositions of the Stark family weren't built to survive the cruel cutthroat nature of the emerging power seeking individuals surrounding them. One way or another, the Starks were going to be involved in the chaos that is the struggle for the Iron Throne. And one way or another, the Starks did not have someone in a political position willing to go against values they were raised by.

Here's to the remaining five (Jon, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon). As they have seen the diabolical world unfold before their eyes, maybe they will have the stomach for what it takes to truly survive.

“The singers make much of kings who die valiantly in battle, but your life is worth more than a song.”

-Jaqen