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The Rhaegar Scroll Thing... and Dany Being Stupid


oliewankanobe

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I nosed around and found discussions about the "moment" when Rhaegar reads something in a scroll in instantly declares he must become a warrior.

Ok.

A few pages later, Dany says she will listen to everyone who speaks to her (after being cautioned to take things with a grain of salt-- or "well salted). At the end of that paragraph we get this:

"She had read that in a book."

Same chapter, a few days later, she is playing with her dragons when Mormont shows up convincing her she can't trust anyone, she should change course, etc. He then admits he has been very dishonestly scoping out the hold and counting everyone's wealth for his own purposes (he claims for Dany, but BS). She, a in typical childish turn, completely ignores all of her own questioning in response to him, declares his hairbrained scheme is genius, and immediately decides to put it into effect...

Then they make out. WTF??? Um, grow a crown, there, Khaleesi, and slap his face... then have him gelded.

While I never trusted Mormont-- in fact, I can't think of any non-Dothraki I DO trust around Dany-- this really had me scratching my head.

Is Martin telling us not to trust what we read? Is he implying that some prophesies are dragon poop? It feels like he's underscoring how Rhaegar went from a "bookish" kid who was well liked to an utter scumbucket after believing a prophecy. Dany talks about how she will listen to all, that she read it in a book, and promptly gets turned in too many directions by too many men... then makes out with Mormont, who is constantly checking her out in an über creepy way.

Am I smoking something?

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Then they make out. WTF??? Um, grow a crown, there, Khaleesi, and slap his face... then have him gelded.

Well, to be fair to Dany, she does think to herself repeatedly that she should have censured him in some way for being so presumptuous as to kiss her. But even though the reader may not fully trust Mormont he is the only one who has been with her the whole way. She is not afraid to talk him down, but at the same time will put up with a lot from him because he's kind of a father figure to her after having lost Viserys, Drogo, and everyone else. She's still a little girl, really, and she even still considers herself to be one. She's going to make a lot of errors in judgment, and she needs an adult to guide her.

Is Martin telling us not to trust what we read? Is he implying that some prophesies are dragon poop? It feels like he's underscoring how Rhaegar went from a "bookish" kid who was well liked to an utter scumbucket after believing a prophecy.

No, I think most prophecies, even just dreams, will tend to come true in this story. This prophecy, specifically, is a really important one that comes up over and over, and there's a lot of plausible reasons to believe it is being carried out, just maybe in a different way than the characters concerned believe.

I'm also not sure Rhaegar became an "utter scumbucket" after believing the prophecy--I think I saw you reference Rhaegar being a rapist and kidnapper in another post? Might not have been you. Anyway, we get the impression he kidnapped and raped Lyanna only from Robert, who has a pretty obvious reason for wanting to believe that's what he did. A lot of fans, and other characters, have the impression Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love--most importantly, people who knew Rhaegar and were around him at the time. (In fact, I could be wrong, but I think in the whole series thus far the only bad things said at all about Rhaegar come from Robert.) Also Meera's story about the Tourney of Harrenhal would seem to suggest they had affection for each other. It's only a story, but again, stuff like this seems to turn out to be true in ASOIAF unless the teller is lying, and Meera would have no reason to lie--she likely has no idea who she's even talking about, she thinks it's just a nice story.

So I think there's scant evidence that believing the prophecy made Rhaegar a bad person. He might have been unduly obsessed--some think he and Lyanna stole away so he could conceive the third head of the dragon with her, or the Prince Who Was Promised, Azor Ahai, or whoever, which effectively started the war, ruined everything for the Targaryen dynasty and caused his death. Reckless, yes. But it's only speculation at this point that the prophecy made him do this--it could well have just been love.

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A few pages later, Dany says she will listen to everyone who speaks to her (after being cautioned to take things with a grain of salt-- or "well salted). At the end of that paragraph we get this:

"She had read that in a book."

That's not to indicate books aren't to be trusted, it's just to show that Dany has no personal experience with leadership. She can only go by what she's read (good or bad).

Same chapter, a few days later, she is playing with her dragons when Mormont shows up convincing her she can't trust anyone, she should change course, etc. ...Then they make out. WTF??? Um, grow a crown, there, Khaleesi, and slap his face... then have him gelded.

Recall the scene of the conversation carefully: Dany sends her handmaidens away, then asks Jorah to sit on the bed next to her. She's naked and covering herself with a sheet. A couple of times she drops it, baring her breasts. At the end of the scene, she leaps up, fully naked, to get dressed. That's when Jorah kisses her. From her POV it's clear that none of her actions were meant as a come-on, but think about what Jorah might think she's doing (or might try to convince himself she's doing). I think it's to Dany's credit that she's empathetic enough not to react with violence. On the other hand, being young and inexperienced, she doesn't see how Mormont's unrequited desire is a problem waiting to happen.

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Rhaegar did not turn into a 'scumbucket' after he decided to become a fighter.

This. Every character who remembers Rhaegar (Ned included), remembers him as a smart, honourable guy. The only indication otherwise is Robert saying that he raped Lyanna until she died or something along those lines.

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This. Every character who remembers Rhaegar (Ned included), remembers him as a smart, honourable guy. The only indication otherwise is Robert saying that he raped Lyanna until she died or something along those lines.

I've never seen someone even hint at or even suggest that Rhaegar was anything other than a good man, even those who were his enemies. Outside of Robert of course, who possibly didn't even know what he was talking about, was exaggerating, or plain making things up. It's possible he was just so enraged and jealous that Lyanna would basically choose someone over himself.

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  • 4 months later...

This. Every character who remembers Rhaegar (Ned included), remembers him as a smart, honourable guy. The only indication otherwise is Robert saying that he raped Lyanna until she died or something along those lines.

If he was smart, he wouldn't have run off with Lyanna and his wife and children would still be alive.

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  • 2 weeks later...

What pisses me off about Robert's character is that he puts his anger towards Rhaegar and of Targaryens in general into one giant hate-box, and – when talking to Ned – totally overlooks a far more emotionally traumatic issue of Ned's own brother and father being horrifically tortured and killed. That's surely worse than Lyanna eloping with some dashing Prince. But no, he hates on Rhaegar #1, then the Mad King #2 followed closely by, oh, you know, ALL Targs everywhere. Moron!

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What pisses me off about Robert's character is that he puts his anger towards Rhaegar and of Targaryens in general into one giant hate-box, and – when talking to Ned – totally overlooks a far more emotionally traumatic issue of Ned's own brother and father being horrifically tortured and killed. That's surely worse than Lyanna eloping with some dashing Prince. But no, he hates on Rhaegar #1, then the Mad King #2 followed closely by, oh, you know, ALL Targs everywhere. Moron!

He doesn't seem to have much empathy for how Ned feels about his sister dying, either. Doesn't Ned even have to remind him pointedly at one point that she was his sister? As in, he was acting like it was his loss alone. Still being possessive even after her death.

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He doesn't seem to have much empathy for how Ned feels about his sister dying, either. Doesn't Ned even have to remind him pointedly at one point that she was his sister? As in, he was acting like it was his loss alone. Still being possessive even after her death.

Exactly – Robert's such a narrow-minded drunken buffoon! That's why I don't get why Ned respects him beyond being a battle companion. Maybe Robert really had changed for the worse during all those hard years of Kingin'.

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Exactly – Robert's such a narrow-minded drunken buffoon! That's why I don't get why Ned respects him beyond being a battle companion. Maybe Robert really had changed for the worse during all those hard years of Kingin'.

Well, I can understand why, I mean, they grew up together as wards, didn't they? They've been both childhood friends and wartime compatriots.. seems like a strong bond to break even if one of them becomes an ass. The passions of friendship can tye people together just as well as family and love, under the right circumstances.

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yes, you are smoking something because you don't trust any non-dothraki around dany, while both mormont and selmy have done far more for her than any dothraki.

I would not say that, her bloodriders abandoned everything about their culture to follow Dany, they got on the boats,they follow her as if she was a Khal,they would die for her, and they have saved her life on multiple occasions, Jorah almost killed her, then because of his feeding information toward Varys, Drogo started the whole raid,and eventually died, Yes I know we cant blame him for their deaths but it did happen because of him, and of course he did spy on her. Then Semly was not loyal , and left Viserys and Dany behind when they needed someone to help them, everyone in Westeros turned their backs son them, and now that she is in power they decide to help her, Semly has to make up a lot of ground and he has, before he is neutral. While her blood riders where there for her whenever she needed them,even though it was to drag her to Dosh Khaleen, in their eyes it was the most important and the best thing for her.

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