Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[Winter's Knight]

I know this is meant to be a humorous thread, but I do think there is a reason people hate Cat (I don't) more than you would expect.

This is meant to be a Cat discussion thread-the OP is humourous because it's Friday night.

Please feel free to discuss Cat as seriously as you'd like.

[Yuri Targaryen]

I really don't understand how in a book full of cruelty, deaths, tortures, rapes, people pay attention on what Cat said to Jon in AGoT. It's so freaking small and yet this comes over and over again.

[Lady Arwen]

Cat also smashed baby Aegon's head against the wall and stabbed little Rhaenys half a hundred times.

I too felt terrible about the "It should have been you" comment to Jon, and I'm a big fan of Cat. I wouldn't justify that comment, even though I understand that she was grief-stricken over Bran and probably not thinking rationally. It's just not right to say (or even think) something like that to an innocent teenager. But I choose not to hold that against her until the end of time.

[loveigniting09]

I'm not a Cat fan, but I understand some of her motivations. My wife would trade an entire country for 1 of our kids without thinking twice. I think this is just a normal reaction from mothers. For guys it's a little different. How can you ask someone else to sacrifice their family members if you're not willing to do the same?

The only instance where I thought she was just a complete bitch is when she told Jon it should've been him. I get that she's grieving, but if Jon had beat her to death with his bare hands in that moment I wouldn't have thouhgt less of him. 14 years worth of eating shit sandwiches is enough without being told you should be crippled/dying just because.

Jon is one of my favorite characters and yet, I don't think Cat's words to him in that instance were monstrous. She was out of her mind with grief and sometimes, people say things during times like that (I know I have) that an outsider looking in might find hateable. I'm not justifying her words but I'm saying that that it doesn't make her an awful person that deserves to be on most hated lists with people like Ramsay Bolton and Gregor Clegane. Also, I might be imagining this because I haven't read the books in a while but I think she felt some regret or shame for what she said so yeah. It's a human moment IMO and while it's not Cat at her finest, it's not something to write her off for completely.

[butterbumps!]

The only instance where I thought she was just a complete bitch is when she told Jon it should've been him. I get that she's grieving, but if Jon had beat her to death with his bare hands in that moment I wouldn't have thouhgt less of him. 14 years worth of eating shit sandwiches is enough without being told you should be crippled/dying just because.

I think this comes up a lot, and it's debatable. I think that for the most part, Jon was involved in all of the family activities (training, studies, mealtimes, etc), except when the King comes to visit where he has to eat off to the side. This had far more to do with expectations of propriety (imagine the umbrage Cersei would have taken at a bastard sitting up on the dais), than a pattern of excluding Jon from the family. Honestly, I got the idea that Cat and Jon simply kept a respectful distance from each other- she didn't go out of her way to treat him badly, but more likely ignored him/ let him be. I think the "it should have been you" was a very isolated incident.

[Lady Arwen]

I know this is meant to be a humorous thread, but I do think there is a reason people hate Cat (I don't) more than you would expect. I think because she is comparatively realistic, the way that she often judges others (her worst quality, although she has many other positive ones to compensate for it) can bother people at a more personal level than the more outlandish crimes of some of the other characters. Most of us (thank god) have probably never been victimized by a Gregor Clegane or a Ramsay Bolton, but many of us have felt judged by a Cat Stark type individual in our lives - perhaps a co-worker, or a parent, or a teacher, so I think her cruelty toward Jon, so early in the series, her bad judgment when it came to Tyrion, and her other self-righteous moments when it came to her brother, to Lysa, and some other characters tend to evoke a more personal response.

This is very astute. :agree:

[Queen Cersei I]

Thank God, a Catelyn hate thread, it'd been literally minutes since I last saw a post criticizing her. The vile wench is guilty of so many things in this series that I don't think I can fit them all in.

Catelyn Stark is the Great Other

Catelyn Stark burned down Summerhall

Catelyn Stark lit the fire that burned Rickard Stark

Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned with Varys

Catelyn Stark stole Daenarys' dragons in TV Qarth

The night is dark and full of CATELYN.

I agree with the OP, she's unnatural and traitorous, as are all the ladies of Westeros

No, they're not "unnatural and traitorous; they're all just essentially sexually frustrated. Give Cersei Lannister one night of bliss with Tormund's mighty member, and she'd sweeten right up. I guarantee it.

[Sevumar]

I really don't understand how in a book full of cruelty, deaths, tortures, rapes, people pay attention on what Cat said to Jon in AGoT. It's so freaking small and yet this comes over and over again.

Just because Catelyn's cruelty isn't the worst cruelty in the story doesn't mean we shouldn't take note of it. It's a real blind spot in what is otherwise a very capable, adaptable, and insightful woman. Recognizing that her attitude and her behavior toward Jon were unnecessarily cruel doesn't negate Catelyn's many good qualities and her strength as an adviser to her son. It's a pretty big issue precisely because of the impact it had on Stark family life over the decade and a half prior to the story.

Part of the tragedy is that Ned believed he had no choice but to keep Lyanna's secret and allow this one point of disagreement to continue to fester in his relationship with Catelyn over the years of their marriage. The truth could well be that her fear and her distrust were misplaced and she will never know.

[Lady Lea]

I really don't understand how in a book full of cruelty, deaths, tortures, rapes, people pay attention on what Cat said to Jon in AGoT. It's so freaking small and yet this comes over and over again.

Like another poster said, it's probably because most people can relate to that on a more personal level than the other cruelties. I was upset when I read it the first time but I can definitely understand her reasons. She's always had this bastard in her own home, being treated by Ned like one of his legitimate children, which is just a constant source of humiliation for her. Most people focus on Jon and forget about her feelings. The Jon situation was NOT normal. Anyone would have been insulted in her position. There was a common belief that bastards were treacherous people too, which she probably believed. I think many mothers would feel that it was an injustice that her son was in that situation when the bastard, the bad egg wasn't. It's very sad, but I don't really think she actually wanted Jon dead. It was just a moment of grief.

[Thallus]

. It's just not right to say (or even think) something like that to an innocent teenager. But I choose not to hold that against her until the end of time.

Jon is not innocent. He is born in sin, he has become the embodyment of sin. Bastards are abominations.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

I think the problem with Cat is that she is almost too realistic of a character to be in a fictional fantasy setting.

Fan favorite characters in fiction generally are willing to make huge personal sacrifices for the greater good. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" and so on.

With Cat though, she is actually willing to take on some collateral damage in order to save her kids. It's probably the same decision that 99% of real life parents would make but it is unlikely to gain much admiration from readers, especially in a story on such an epic scale as this one.

[Fightbringer]

so what your saying is that she's a terrible character because she doesnt know her place as a woman? give me a break.

[Evamitchelle]

so what your saying is that she's a terrible character because she doesnt know her place as a woman? give me a break.

The OP was being sarcastic.

[Valmorfëa]

Incredulous, the reader is forced to reread this little bombshell over and over again, laughing with disbelief. Yes ladies and gentlemen, Cat told it true—in 15+ years of marriage, Ned has tried another position save missionary.

Well, she is Cat... she wouldn't like it doggy style. :leaving:

[protar]

In all honesty I'm not a big fan of Cat, but it's more because I find her chapterss continually depressing. They're mostly saved by the interesting events in them, but seriously does she express happiness at all after AGOT? I understand she has good reason: by the time of her death she's lost most of her family, and yet the other Starks are in this position as well and don't give across such a gloomy vibe.

[Mulled Wino]

I think this comes up a lot, and it's debatable. I think that for the most part, Jon was involved in all of the family activities (training, studies, mealtimes, etc), except when the King comes to visit where he has to eat off to the side. This had far more to do with expectations of propriety (imagine the umbrage Cersei would have taken at a bastard sitting up on the dais), than a pattern of excluding Jon from the family. Honestly, I got the idea that Cat and Jon simply kept a respectful distance from each other- she didn't go out of her way to treat him badly, but more likely ignored him/ let him be. I think the "it should have been you" was a very isolated incident.

And others dont feel that way, especially because Jon has a very clear perception of how Cat views him.

It us never right to tell any child that it should have been them that died, regardless of your grief level.

Alas, I suppose it makes it just fine if you mention in conversation later that your feel bad about it.

[Mulled Wino]

Walder Frey loves the kids.....Catelyn, not so much.

[Lyanna Stark]

Walder Frey loves the kids.....Catelyn, not so much.

Really? Because when Cat tries to trade a son for a son at the Red Wedding, Walder is totally ok with sacrificing one, plus he says he never cared much for that one either, and it was a grandson, so Cat was welcome to kill him.

And others dont feel that way, especially because Jon has a very clear perception of how Cat views him.

It us never right to tell any child that it should have been them that died, regardless of your grief level.

Alas, I suppose it makes it just fine if you mention in conversation later that your feel bad about it.

Jon has a very clear perception of how Cat views him? Do you think they spoke about it and Cat talked to him in length of how she feels? I don't think so. She was distant and cold to him. And no, it was not right what she said and she later regrets it. It still doesn't make it right, but it makes it highly unusual behaviour for that person, and in a situation that was extreme (she thought her son may die).

Again, had Ned had a better brain in his head he'd let Jon be fostered with the Cerwyns (half a day's ride away) so Jon wouldn't have been a constant reminder to Cat about Ned defiling their marriage and how she had to suffer the insult forever.

so what your saying is that she's a terrible character because she doesnt know her place as a woman? give me a break.

Well the Cat hate is normally a variation of this. Take your pick: she was a bad mother, she was too emotional, or she was too cold, or she was too distant, she was once mean to Jon Snow, she didn't mother Jon Snow despite him being a child (because as a woman if you encounter a child you HAVE TO WANT TO MOTHER IT or you are simply Bad)

[Mulled Wino]

OP, i need to borrow the sarcasm font for my Walder Frey post.

[danm_999]

Catelyn, alongside her evil sister Lysa, groomed Petyr Baelish for years, culminating in a brutal rape by her sister Lysa of an unconscious Petyr. Catelyn then had poor Petyr beaten by her new toy to complete the crime.

Catelyn, a vicious patrician snob, brutally attacks a common man who enters Bran's bedroom with a knife, who for all we know was there to give poor Bran a hair cut on Robb's orders. Poor Robb was probably forced to play along with her assassination theory afterwards lest she turn on him too.

We don't know where Catelyn was during the Night's King fiasco, suffice to say the Night's Queen was described as having "skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars". SOUND LIKE ANYONE WE KNOW?