Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[Mulled Wino]

Jon has a very clear perception of how Cat views him? Do you think they spoke about it and Cat talked to him in length of how she feels? I don't think so. She was distant and cold to him. And no, it was not right what she said and she later regrets it. It still doesn't make it right, but it makes it highly unusual behaviour for that person, and in a situation that was extreme (she thought her son may die).

You're a mother right? You don't think kids know a lot more than what is directly spoken to them? You don't think they can sense tenseness and smell out issues in a home or how people really perceive them?

Jon never felt welcome around Cat, I think that's a fault of Cat, not Ned. Someone has to put her big girl panties on and get over it for the sake of the child.

I cannot believe that you are going to type that Catelyn was literally mean to Jon ONCE. Just one time. Even if, in the HIGHLY unlikely instance that she was only mean to Jon once, to tell him that he should have been the one to die is fucking dirty, I mean super dirty. It's worse then rabbit puching a toddler at the park because he/she smacked your toddler and made him cry.

And doing something one regrets later does not make it highly unusual behavior, especially when she has shown other tendencies to act rashly.

[Lyanna Stark]

You're a mother right? You don't think kids know a lot more than what is directly spoken to them? You don't think they can sense tenseness and smell out issues in a home or how people really perceive them?

Yes, I am a mother. Does that make me automatically doomed to love every child that comes my way? Does it automatically, overnight, turn me from "person" into "mother" and I now have to fulfill people's weird notions of that a mother ought to be? How about "No".

Jon never felt welcome around Cat, I think that's a fault of Cat, not Ned.

How is it Cat's fault? She had no power to do anything about Jon. Jon was at Winterfell when she arrived with Robb. She asked Ned about Jon's mother and he intimidated her into silence and told her to never bring it up again. It's utterly clear it's Ned's fault. He created the situation where Cat had to live with the slight. Imagine in Cat instead had been Cersei, one of the Tyrells, Lysa or Selyse Florent, Jon would either be dead, or Ned would have had a constantly hateful and insulted wife. Cersei even reflects that Cat must be a grey little mouse to accept such an insulting situation. All Cat does is to be distant to Jon. She doesn't hate him. The only time she goes out of her way to be mean to him is at Bran's bedside, and she feels bad about it afterwards.

Someone has to put her big girl panties on and get over it for the sake of the child.

Yes, Gods forbid Cat actually had a wish for her own happiness over someone else's? Instead she should just accept the insult and bow her head in submission to whatever insult her Lord husband brought upon her. In fact, going by Westerosi standards, Cat is being overly generous.

I cannot believe that you are going to type that Catelyn was literally mean to Jon ONCE. Just one time. Even if, in the HIGHLY unlikely instance that she was only mean to Jon once, to tell him that he should have been the one to die is fucking dirty, I mean super dirty. It's worse then rabbit puching a toddler at the park because he/she smacked your toddler and made him cry.

She was mean to him once. You may believe she was mean to him more often, but there is no support for that in the text. If you want, I can link you the thread where both Ran and Mormont support this completely, and they are among the better informed about what's in the actual text, I'd say.

And doing something one regrets later does not make it highly unusual behavior, especially when she has shown other tendencies to act rashly.

This is you jumping to conclusions based on no evidence in the text. Cat is mean to Jon once and once only. Apart from that cold and distant. You may want it to be different because you have personal prejudice, but you won't find anything in the text to support your interpretation. And she has absolutely no tendency to act rashly apart from when her children's lives are in danger. In fact, throughout, Cat is extremely controlled. She describes how she always patiently waited for Hoster, or for other men in her family to come back. Always controlled, always patient, always doing her duty. The one time she goes out in a limb is when her children's lives are threatened: hence prone to act rashly is the opposite of the Cat we see in the text.

Before you bring up "arresting Tyrion" consider for a minute why she does that: it's because she has reasons to believe he was behind the murder attempt on Bran, hence it falls under "children's life in danger". She cannot know whether he will make another attempt on Bran's life if he wanted him dead to start with.

[Kittyhat]

"But wait!", you cry O gentle reader, "surely Cat's blunders are few and easily explainable! For instance, her despising Jon Snow: an unknown bastard, baseborn and brought home by her husband even before she had crossed the threshold! And his origins kept a secret by her lord husband, despite her earnest pleadings-how could she not resent the slim youth who resembled her liege more than his trueborn sons?"

I get that you're trying to use irony here (as throughout your post), but in this particular case, it's the ironic position and not your intended message that I agree with. Emotional abuse of an innocent child is capital-N never excusable or acceptable, period end of story.

It doesn't put Catelyn on the same level as utter villains like Littlefinger or Tywin, no, and yes, there were certain mitigating circumstances, but I cannot agree with treating the matter lightly. It's not about being a strong or independent woman -- I'd condemn any man equally for abuse of an innocent child.

It is simply. Never. Acceptable.

[Lyanna Stark]

I get that you're trying to use irony here (as throughout your post), but in this particular case, it's the ironic position and not your intended message that I agree with. Emotional abuse of an innocent child is capital-N never excusable or acceptable, period end of story.

She was mean to him once, cold and distant the rest of the time. Does that qualify as emotional abuse to you?

[Kittyhat]

She was mean to him once. You may believe she was mean to him more often, but there is no support for that in the text.

Sorry ... we agree on a lot, but I have to call common sense on this one. The text makes it explicitly clear that this is normal behavior and a normal situation between them; it's not something that comes out of left field as unexpected and unusual. We I think can safely make some common-sense inferences at times; I don't for example need Martin to spell it out word for word in the text that the characters have to pee sometimes in order to believe that they all do it.

And thinking back to Gulliver's Travels, I can recall how painful it is when an author actually does that ... :P

[Mladen]

This is by war the worst analysis of any character in ASOIAF...I mean of thread creator`s opinion

[Lyanna Stark]

Sorry ... we agree on a lot, but I have to call common sense on this one. The text makes it explicitly clear that this is normal behavior and a normal situation between them; it's not something that comes out of left field as unexpected and unusual. We I think can safely make some common-sense inferences at times; I don't for example need Martin to spell it out word for word in the text that the characters have to pee sometimes in order to believe that they all do it.

And thinking back to Gulliver's Travels, I can recall how painful it is when an author actually does that ... :P

What? You mean when Cat told him it should have been him in Bran's bed chamber, that was explicitly clear that it was normal behaviour?

You do know GRRM himself has stated in SSM that it's an extreme situation and that her behaviour was extreme, hence not at all normal. Even if people misinterpret the text to the degree where they project their own feelings like the poster above who claimed Cat was always mean to Jon, or that she was emotionally unstable or anything, there is Word of God that this is not the case.

So I think it's clear you are dead wrong here, it's actually the opposite. It is an extremely unusual occurrence.

Also, the "common sense" that people seem to infer has no support in the text and since GRRM himself has stated Cat's lashing out as Jon was so exceptional it seems the opposite conclusion should be drawn using common sense: Cat was distant and cold to Jon and certainly didn't love him, nor particularly care for him at all, but she wasn't emotionally abusive to him.

[ElizaMartell]

Excellent.

In before "Innocent Child Jon Snow!", "She turned the North against Robb!" and "Treacherous womb!"....

Wait, that's all been said already. Typical.

Oh well. I suppose Cat also killed Renly and executed Ned herself?

Sorry ... we agree on a lot, but I have to call common sense on this one. The text makes it explicitly clear that this is normal behavior and a normal situation between them; it's not something that comes out of left field as unexpected and unusual. We I think can safely make some common-sense inferences at times; I don't for example need Martin to spell it out word for word in the text that the characters have to pee sometimes in order to believe that they all do it.

. :P

Really? Because GRRM said the scene Cat had with Jon wasn't usual at all and was a one off. You can read between the lines until your eyes bleed but GRRM himself has stated she isn't frequently cruel to him. So, sorry "common sense"?

[dark sister]

In all honesty I'm not a big fan of Cat, but it's more because I find her chapterss continually depressing. They're mostly saved by the interesting events in them, but seriously does she express happiness at all after AGOT? I understand she has good reason: by the time of her death she's lost most of her family, and yet the other Starks are in this position as well and don't give across such a gloomy vibe.

First of all, protar, I'm not singling you out in this, as many people have said virtually the same thing, I just want to respond to it. So this response is for anyone who complains of the same thing ("why isn't Cat ever happy after GOT???")

Well, come on. Even if she had just lost a husband -- whom she dearly loved -- it would have taken years for her to get over the grief. She didn't start out loving Ned, but she grew to love him passionately. Any widow, even in the medieval period, should be allowed more than a couple of months to grieve.

What makes Catelyn's story so Shakespearian-like tragic is that one bombshell keeps hitting her right after the other.

First, Ned dies. Then, her favorite daughter is a hostage at KL, with the cruelest queen we've seen in Westeros (or at least heard of -- if there had been any crueler ones we surely would have heard of them -- such as, maybe, an Alysanne the Cruel Queen instead of Alysanne the Good Queen [just an example of a Targ name]).

Then, there is no word of Arya, whom she might not relate to as much but loves as much as the rest of her children. Eventually, the people around her, even Robb, say that she is almost certainly dead.

THEN, after warning Robb not to send Theon back to his father, she learns that her worst nightmares have come true - no, not even a nightmare she could imagine - Theon has "killed" Bran and Rickon. In fact, this reminds me of the first thing she had to be grief-stricken about, even before Ned's death -- someone has pushed her sweetest child out a window, breaking his back, paralyzing him, and she has to leave before he even wakes up. It's wonderful that he does wake up, but the ultimate tragedy is that she never gets to see him alive or talk to him again after he does. It's like children who say something casual to their parents before getting murdered or disappearing. The loss of one child in that manner leaves a parent permanently scarred.

Finally, she sees her "first son, and [her] last son" die by Frey's treachery. No wonder she was able to rise after three days of death. She had the grief and anger of all these events empowering her soul.

Part of why I love Catelyn is BECAUSE of all the grief that happens to her. And the thing is, there are lots of characters who aren't happy in their POVs - Sansa isn't happy, Reek isn't happy, Bran isn't happy. But out of those characters I named, the girls get the shit (as ever).

I don't know if many people notice this, but what Cat thinks in her head and what she permits to pass her lips are two very, very different things.

“My lady,” Maege Mormont said to her one morning as they rode through a steady rain, “you seem so somber. Is aught amiss?”

My lord husband is dead, as is my father. Two of my sons have been murdered, my daughter has been given to a faithless dwarf to bear his vile children, my other daughter is vanished and likely dead, and my last son and my only brother are both angry with me. What could possibly be amiss? That was more truth than Lady Maege would wish to hear, however. “This is an evil rain,” she said instead. “We have suffered much, and there is more peril and more grief ahead. We need to face it boldly, with horns blowing and banners flying bravely. But this rain beats us down. The banners hang limp and sodden, and the men huddle under their cloaks and scarcely speak to one another. Only an evil rain would chill our hearts when most we need them to burn hot.”

Dacey Mormont looked up at the sky. “I would sooner have water raining down on me than arrows.”

Catelyn smiled despite herself. “You are braver than I am, I fear. Are all your Bear Island women such warriors?”

This is a perfect example of many, many such cases.

I also don't like what Queen Cersei I had to say about Catelyn's sex life with Ned. After, what, 15-18 years of marriage, I'm sure they've had sex more than hundreds of times, so they may have tried out other positions (if they knew of any). It seems like Robert Baratheon, who was very sexually promiscuous, only used the missionary position, too, from what we've heard from Cersei. When he got too fat, the women would either have to bear his weight, or the smarter(heh) ones would get on top of him. I don't know if the poster was being sarcastic or not, though, so excuse me if she was. I thought the scene between Cat and Ned was sincere. Also, Jon Snow said that Jaime Lannister "had a smile that cut like a knife". So does he desire Jaime, too? :-p

I guess I just can't bash Catelyn even in a funny or sarcastic way, because to me it's like poking a crippled person when s/he's fallen out of a wheelchair. I think there are other, better people to make fun of in a light-hearted way (just personally). Mayhaps Roose Bolton, although I'm sure there are many of those threads. Every time I read "a peaceful land, a quiet people" I can't help but laughing, even though the villainy there is plain.

[Princess_of_Sunspear]

Really? Because when Cat tries to trade a son for a son at the Red Wedding, Walder is totally ok with sacrificing one, plus he says he never cared much for that one either, and it was a grandson, so Cat was welcome to kill him.

Jon has a very clear perception of how Cat views him? Do you think they spoke about it and Cat talked to him in length of how she feels? I don't think so. She was distant and cold to him. And no, it was not right what she said and she later regrets it. It still doesn't make it right, but it makes it highly unusual behaviour for that person, and in a situation that was extreme (she thought her son may die)I

Again, had Ned had a better brain in his head he'd let Jon be fostered with the Cerwyns (half a day's ride away) so Jon wouldn't have been a constant reminder to Cat about Ned defiling their marriage and how she had to suffer the insult forever.

Well the Cat hate is normally a variation of this. Take your pick: she was a bad mother, she was too emotional, or she was too cold, or she was too distant, she was once mean to Jon Snow, she didn't mother Jon Snow despite him being a child (because as a woman if you encounter a child you HAVE TO WANT TO MOTHER IT or you are simply Bad)

I agree that it must have been insulting for her to have Jon around her own kids, and fostering him elsewhere would have been easier on Cat's marriage to Ned. But perhaps Ned had a reason to keep Jon closer - if R+L=J is true, Jon would have been the sole reminder of his dear dead sister.

I just think it would have been easier for Ned to tell Cat the truth about his parentage- whether Jon was his or Lyana's, and discuss everyithing rationally. Cat strikes me as a reasonable person, and I'm sure that after years of marriage he should have trusted her.

[Kittykatknits]

In all honesty I'm not a big fan of Cat, but it's more because I find her chapterss continually depressing. They're mostly saved by the interesting events in them, but seriously does she express happiness at all after AGOT? I understand she has good reason: by the time of her death she's lost most of her family, and yet the other Starks are in this position as well and don't give across such a gloomy vibe.

I guess to each his own as the emotion in her POVs, depressing though it may be, really reasonate with me. She's not an over the top, unrealistic, bad ass, warrior princess, fantasy trope. Catelyn is one of the most realistly drawn characters in the entire series. She's a woman who has been living the life expected of her, dutiful and loving wife and mother.

But, as to the depression, it makes sense to me. Her husband, who she passionately loved was killed. Her two daughters are a hostage but she only has news on one of them. Then, after Robb lets Theon go, she hears that he took WF and the Ironborn invaded the North. Two of her sons are killed, her daughters are still a hostage. Then, she learns that Sansa is married to the Lannister imp and that her previous effort to free her daughters may be for nothing. All she has left is Robb and then he is murdered right in front of her. I don't know what else to call this than a tragedy. Yet, despite it all, she continues to do her duty and put on a brave face in front of Robb's bannermen.

Some may call that depressing, I'd say the woman is showing some amazing strength under circumstances that would break many people.

[David Selig]

Emotional abuse LOL...

Got to love this board. Murders are easily excused (see Tyrion, Jaime, Arya...hell, pretty much every popular character), but cold looks towards the super awesome fantastic hero Jon "The Cliche" Snow = unforgivable and utterly despicable behaviour.

[Mulled Wino]

Yes, I am a mother. Does that make me automatically doomed to love every child that comes my way? Does it automatically, overnight, turn me from "person" into "mother" and I now have to fulfill people's weird notions of that a mother ought to be? How about "No".

Wow. I asked about a child's intuitivity and now this... Where did I make a generalization about all mothers having to love all the children in the universe?

A mother or father should love every child in their home regardless of that child's parent. You justify Cat's behavior however you want, I dont like it. I think she's self absorbed, snobby, and rash.

Ive said before, she had no cause to arrest Tyrion over suspiscion without any proof AT ALL. Cat absolutely did not consider the ramifications of her actions.

Why did she have to go tell Ned? Why not stay and send Rodrik? Another rash decision, because SHE had to do it even though there were better alternatives. There's just so much.

I know all the arguments as well, the Tyrion one you presented doesnt fly. The Arya and Sansa for alliances doesnt fly. Tyrion vowed in open court in where? The Vale? Pardon me but so fucking what, this is war. And you dont even knkw for sure that they have both your daughters.

[Lord Over]

Too bad I don't know how to use GIFs or else I'd have linked the one where a crowd is cheering. :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mulled Wino]

Emotional abuse LOL...

Got to love this board. Murders are easily excused (see Tyrion, Jaime, Arya...hell, pretty much every popular character), but cold looks towards the super awesome fantastic hero Jon "The Cliche" Snow = unforgivable and utterly despicable behaviour.

Lol, ok. Why do yu read fantasy novels again?

Nothing to do with Jon per se. Just how she treated whoever. Some people, possily based on personal events weight different importance on characters actions. Its good to know that sooooooo many Cat fans care so much.

[Bee Diddie]

Catlyn was a walking disaster, and in reality a pretty evil bitch. She tells Jon "It should have been you." How can any mother raise children and have nothing but venomous hatred towards one in her household just because she's not his mother?

Did he ask to be bastard-born?

Catlyn and Danyres make horrible choices in this story, in my opinion.

[Bee Diddie]

Emotional abuse LOL...

Got to love this board. Murders are easily excused (see Tyrion, Jaime, Arya...hell, pretty much every popular character), but cold looks towards the super awesome fantastic hero Jon "The Cliche" Snow = unforgivable and utterly despicable behaviour.

That's not it at all.

[Kittykatknits]

I agree that it must have been insulting for her to have Jon around her own kids, and fostering him elsewhere would have been easier on Cat's marriage to Ned. But perhaps Ned had a reason to keep Jon closer - if R+L=J is true, Jon would have been the sole reminder of his dear dead sister.

I just think it would have been easier for Ned to tell Cat the truth about his parentage- whether Jon was his or Lyana's, and discuss everyithing rationally. Cat strikes me as a reasonable person, and I'm sure that after years of marriage he should have trusted her.

Keeping Jon around is a huge insult to Catelyn. Look at the other bastards in the story, none are kept at home around the wife. To give you an idea of how rude and uncommon it is, the exception to this is Walder Frey. Ned may have had a reason, and I believe that R+L = J too, but Catelyn would not know this. All she knows is that Ned had a child with another woman after they were married and then she was forced to see the proof of his infidelity every single day. Ned made the decision not to tell her or Jon. Ned made the decision to keep Jon close. Ned was the one who scared Cat to the point she never confronted him again. Ned is the one who forbid her from ever talking about it. He was the one with the power in the situation. If anyone deserves blame here, it's him.

I really don't understand why people put the blame for all of it on Catelyn yet Ned gets so much of a free pass. You are right, why not just tell her the truth?

[David Selig]

That's not it at all.

Care to elaborate?

Lol, ok. Why do yu read fantasy novels again?

Nothing to do with Jon per se. Just how she treated whoever. Some people, possily based on personal events weight different importance on characters actions.

Good for them. But I find it quite ironic and somewhat hypocritical too.

[Lyanna Stark]

Wow. I asked about a child's intuitivity and now this... Where did I make a generalization about all mothers having to love all the children in the universe?

When you said this: You're a mother right? You don't think kids know a lot more than what is directly spoken to them? You don't think they can sense tenseness and smell out issues in a home or how people really perceive them?

Indicating that Cat was in the wrong for not loving Jon. You assume she created issues because she does not love him. Because she did not abuse him, she avoided him, so the only way you can see that she created issues for him is for her failure to love him. Apart from that, there is nothing. She even compares him to Theon later, and she was not particularly mean to Theon, just didn't include him in the love she felt for her own children, and she was suspicious of him (as she was of Jon).

A mother or father should love every child in their home regardless of that child's parent. You justify Cat's behavior however you want, I dont like it. I think she's self absorbed, snobby, and rash.

Ah yes, the whole "but she is a mother she ought to love him". You do realise Cat had no choice on whether or not to accept Jon, right? He was forced into her home without her wanting him to be there. When she asked Ned about it, he intimidated her into silence. Over and over and over Cat's wishes were totally ignored or totally trampled, yet she is the one in the wrong?

Ive said before, she had no cause to arrest Tyrion over suspiscion without any proof AT ALL. Cat absolutely did not consider the ramifications of her actions.

The proof that was sent to her with so much secrecy from Lysa, then Littlefinger nicely framing Tyrion for the murder of Bran? You do realise to Cat, it was a clearcut case. Even so, she was trying to avoid Tyrion and let someone else deal with when Marillion gave her away at the Inn by calling attention to himself from Tyrion. At that point, she knew Tyrion had seen her and would figure out she'd been in KL in secret, meaning she had to act. Rereading AGOT really helps here.

Why did she have to go tell Ned? Why not stay and send Rodrik? Another rash decision, because SHE had to do it even though there were better alternatives. There's just so much.

At the time, there were few good alternatives, which means Cat went.

I know all the arguments as well, the Tyrion one you presented doesnt fly. The Arya and Sansa for alliances doesnt fly. Tyrion vowed in open court in where? The Vale? Pardon me but so fucking what, this is war. And you dont even knkw for sure that they have both your daughters.

"Doesn't fly" is hardly a good retort. If you think they "don't fly" then post your rebuttals.

Lol, ok. Why do yu read fantasy novels again?

Why should we read fantasy novels according to you? You clearly have a good answer.