Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[dark sister]

Ive already answered this.

But i remember some quote in a jon pov bit i have nothing searchable. Or maybe im wrong.

If you're going to be mean ONCE, she reallh hit a home run. Just like with her strategic blunders.

For the record, she was probably frustrated at having her good advice ignored multiple times amd she went through a familial shitstorm. I dont like how she handled it. Doesnt mean a reader has to like her.

My first reaction to your post was: ??????????

Ok, let me try to sort through this stuff!

Where have you "already answered this"? Plus, I was asking kittyhat, not you. But go ahead, please tell us where you've already answered "this", whatever "this" is!

Please share the Jon quotation with us, we'd like to know.

I don't know, if she hit such a home run, as I said just a little while ago, why doesn't Jon ever think about it again after it happens?

What strategic blunders are you talking about?

So now you're saying that she blundered strategically, but gave good advice? She never said she was frustrated. I'm doing a re-read on ASOS at this very moment, and she never gets frustrated, she is simply resigned when Robb orders her to go to Seagard with Jason Mallister.

And I never said that a reader must like her.

[sillent]

Wow. First of all, learn to spell the characters' names right before you use such inane hyperbole.

Second, you give no reason(s) as to why Catelyn was a "walking disaster".

I think this thread might give you a few reasons as to why he thinks Catelyn is a "walking disaster". (along with all other women)

[Mulled Wino]

Treating a child coldly and distantly under your own roof is a clear sign to that kid that he will never be accepted imto your family, just because he/she was born. Children feel this stuff and it affects them. Its petty, bring your beef to the man in your life that cheated, taking it out on a child will get you zero props coming from me.

I fail to see how Cat gets a pass on this and telling this child that he should have been the one dying, even if she was tired and grief stricken. We know how she feels about Jon from her pov's, so does Jon whether you choose to believe it or not.

[Mulled Wino]

I think this thread might give you a few reasons as to why he thinks Catelyn is a "walking disaster". (along with all other women)

Obvious troll is obvious.

[ElizaMartell]

Treating a child coldly and distantly under your own roof is a clear sign to that kid that he will never be accepted imto your family, just because he/she was born. Children feel this stuff and it affects them. Its petty, bring your beef to the man in your life that cheated, taking it out on a child will get you zero props coming from me.

I fail to see how Cat gets a pass on this and telling this child that he should have been the one dying, even if she was tired and grief stricken. We know how she feels about Jon from her pov's, so does Jon whether you choose to believe it or not.

Wait so Jon who got treated like a Stark son, was educated by Maestors, taught the sword and became friends with his half-siblings was 'mistreated' because Cat didn't want anything to do with him? Really? Really now? We're going for the fact Cat didn't like Jon to make your case? Jon being a bastard and people noting this can not be faulted to Cat. It doesn't make much sense. Do you really believe that if Cat gave him a cuddle everyday it was going to change the way outer society viewed him?

[Kittyhat]

Okay, yes, everyone, the one incident with Cat was an anomaly. She otherwise treated Jon with respect and kindness and made him feel welcome and okay in his own skin.

Because that totally makes sense and is in line with what we all read.

Apparently, "common sense" isn't so common ... especially on these forums. I forget that all too often.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Its amazing how much this fandom will excuse anything that some of their favourite characters have done over the series

This applies equally to Catelyn. Cat fans will frequently rationalize her mistakes or simply refuse to admit that she ever made any. Just like any other character.

[ElizaMartell]

Okay, yes, everyone, the one incident with Cat was an anomaly. She otherwise treated Jon with respect and kindness and made him feel welcome and okay in his own skin.

Because that totally makes sense and is in line with what we all read.

Apparently, "common sense" isn't so common ... especially on these forums. I forget that all too often.

It seems common sense is lacking in your argument. Cat didn't like Jon. That is clear. Not liking Jon is not a form of emotional abuse. She kept her distance from him most of the time, that is not emotional abuse. She did not prevent her children from becoming close to him, that is not emotional abuse. The outburst was cruel and unnecessary but to say that Catelyn had emotionally abused Jon since he came to Winterfell is laughable because it doesn't appear in the text. Keeping your distance =/= emotional abuse. Its mostly assumptions people make out of their own dislike of her character. GRRM said Catelyn didn't emotionally abuse Jon but somehow your convinced she has because she doesn't like him? Goodness me.

I'm no sure what you're reading but it sure is keen on people making convoluted statements.

This applies equally to Catelyn. Cat fans will frequently rationalize her mistakes or simply refuse to admit that she ever made any. Just like any other character.

Ahh no. Catelyn fans are pretty tired of strawman arguments which are made from pre-exisitng dislike of Catelyn Stark and a very flawed understanding of what happened in GoT. And it shows so often its pretty laughable how many people regurgitate the same nonsense.

[Mulled Wino]

My first reaction to your post was: ??????????

Ok, let me try to sort through this stuff!

Where have you "already answered this"? Plus, I was asking kittyhat, not you. But go ahead, please tell us where you've already answered "this", whatever "this" is!

Please share the Jon quotation with us, we'd like to know.

I don't know, if she hit such a home run, as I said just a little while ago, why doesn't Jon ever think about it again after it happens?

What strategic blunders are you talking about?

So now you're saying that she blundered strategically, but gave good advice? She never said she was frustrated. I'm doing a re-read on ASOS at this very moment, and she never gets frustrated, she is simply resigned when Robb orders her to go to Seagard with Jason Mallister.

And I never said that a reader must like her.

"this" being the argument thatcat is only mean to jon once.

I already mentioned that i need to see if im right about the quote and i have no searchable copy of the texts.

She can give good advice and make tactical and or strategic blunders. She was right more often than being wrong.

Ok she wasnt frustrated about not being listened to, she just openly defied robb in front of hiswhole army out of love for her daughters.

I wasnt necessarily saying that you said I cant not like Catelyn, sorry it came off that way. Cat's defenders certainly give that impression.

[Mulled Wino]

Wait so Jon who got treated like a Stark son, was educated by Maestors, taught the sword and became friends with his half-siblings was 'mistreated' because Cat didn't want anything to do with him? Really? Really now? We're going for the fact Cat didn't like Jon to make your case? Jon being a bastard and people noting this can not be faulted to Cat. It doesn't make much sense. Do you really believe that if Cat gave him a cuddle everyday it was going to change the way outer society viewed him?

Cold and distant.

Im super curious about this Grrm quote. Can you direct me?

[Mulled Wino]

Ahh no. Catelyn fans are pretty tired of strawman arguments which are made from pre-exisitng dislike of Catelyn Stark and a very flawed understanding of what happened in GoT. And it shows so often its pretty laughable how many people regurgitate the same nonsense.

Strawman arguments like that releasing Jamie under those circumstances and taking Tyrion prisoner were huge mistakes?

[Lyanna Stark]

Okay, yes, everyone, the one incident with Cat was an anomaly. She otherwise treated Jon with respect and kindness and made him feel welcome and okay in his own skin.

Because that totally makes sense and is in line with what we all read.

Nobody said she treated him with kindness. You are arguing against something nobody has said.

Apparently, "common sense" isn't so common ... especially on these forums. I forget that all too often.

The reason few people can see your "common sense" is that it goes against what is in the text and what the author has stated himself. If you want to base your arguments on what is in the text, you can. Type out the paragraphs you think support your argument.

There is a space between "emotional abuse" and "motherly love" but you don't seem to be able to grasp that Cat inhabited that space, nor that this space exists in the first place.

[ElizaMartell]

Strawman arguments like that releasing Jamie under those circumstances and taking Tyrion prisoner were huge mistakes?

Stawman arguments like Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner caused the war of the five kings or that it was her fault Robb bedded Jeyne Westerling. Both are not only ludicrous but shows a very poor understanding about what was going on between Got and SoS.

[David Selig]

I don't fault Cat for letting Jaime go, especially because that chapter has to be one of the best in the whole series, and the conversation she has with Jaime is one of the most memorable. The only thing that bugs me about Cat is that while she is so smart about some things - as a military adviser to Robb, telling him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands - she's so blind about the dagger sent to kill Bran. She knows Tyrion is cunning but doesn't find it strange that the assassin shows up with some crazy expensive valyrian steel dagger. It should have been obvioust to her that Tyrion wouldn't be so stupid to commission such a opaque assassination attempt.

It's not like this dagger had "property of Tyrion Lannister" written on it. If LF's story was correct, how many people could identify the dagger? LF, Tyrion and probably Jaime.Tyrion won it recently and he's not type that uses a dagger much if at all. LF is thousands of miles away from WF and he hasn't been talking with Catelyn for 15 years, so the odds of her or someone send by her to ask LF about the dagger were really low.

[ServantOnIce]

Catelyn Stark is perhaps the most despicable character to have set foot in Westoros. Despite her constant protestations of "Family, Duty, Honour", has there ever been a woman more unnatural, more unkind?

"But wait!", you cry O gentle reader, "surely Cat's blunders are few and easily explainable! For instance, her despising Jon Snow: an unknown bastard, baseborn and brought home by her husband even before she had crossed the threshold! And his origins kept a secret by her lord husband, despite her earnest pleadings-how could she not resent the slim youth who resembled her liege more than his trueborn sons?"

"And furthermore", you say, "a mother's grief at losing her two youngest and a mother's fear for her daughters led her to free the Kingslayer! And yet here too, she retained the sense to trust to Tyrion rather than Tywin to return the last of her children safely."

"Weep for it", you say, "for this strong, brave, wise woman. This mother who bore the weight of a dead son-and what load is heavier to bear?"

But I say you are wrong gentle reader for you forgot the culture of Westoros and the nature of women. For Westorosi norms demand not just that bastards be downtrodden but that women revere and obey their husbands. Now consider: Ned is not just Cat's husband but her liege lord as well and she is not just his wife but his devoted subject. Any defiance on her part thus takes on the scarlet hue of treason.

Consider further that she is not just a woman wed but a mother as well-and what can be more natural an instinct than maternal love? Yet she deliberately and perversely stifles any and all affections she may have harboured for the poor defenceless babe, all because of her petty jealousy.

And not being content with being an unnatural woman herself, she seeks to encourage it in other ladies of high birth-consider her approval of Brienne's strange doings and her sending the poor, defenceless Maid of Tarth unescorted to King's Landing in the company of a known blackguard Jaime Lannister.

I submit to you, for your consideration then reader, this perverse, unnatural, traitorous lady, this corrupter of the young and request-nay demand-that you banish her from your good graces forever.

I disagree. Catelyn Forever!!

[Lady Arwen]

Keeping Jon around is a huge insult to Catelyn. Look at the other bastards in the story, none are kept at home around the wife. To give you an idea of how rude and uncommon it is, the exception to this is Walder Frey. Ned may have had a reason, and I believe that R+L = J too, but Catelyn would not know this. All she knows is that Ned had a child with another woman after they were married and then she was forced to see the proof of his infidelity every single day. Ned made the decision not to tell her or Jon. Ned made the decision to keep Jon close. Ned was the one who scared Cat to the point she never confronted him again. Ned is the one who forbid her from ever talking about it. He was the one with the power in the situation. If anyone deserves blame here, it's him.

I really don't understand why people put the blame for all of it on Catelyn yet Ned gets so much of a free pass. You are right, why not just tell her the truth?

Yes. I agree with this so much. Cat didn't have to be cold and distant to Jon, but Ned definitely could have let her in on Jon's parentage so that she didn't have to speculate all those years. I don't know that I would have acted any differently in her situation, and I appreciate the realism of her character even more because of that.

[Kittykatknits]

Ive already answered this.

But i remember some quote in a jon pov bit i have nothing searchable. Or maybe im wrong.

If you're going to be mean ONCE, she reallh hit a home run. Just like with her strategic blunders.

For the record, she was probably frustrated at having her good advice ignored multiple times amd she went through a familial shitstorm. I dont like how she handled it. Doesnt mean a reader has to like her.

I think you bring up some great points! Obviously Cat has a blind spot: with people she doesn't know very well, it's hard for her to know exactly how they might or might not orchestrate something. You mentioned Tyrion and how he would be too cunning to use that dagger. Well, that is true, but people must keep in mind that Catelyn had only met Tyrion once (or maybe twice?) at that point. She didn't know how he thought. But by the time he had weaseled his way out of the Eyrie, she knew by book 2 how his mind worked, and considered him to be the most cunning and dangerous of the Lannisters (which is true). The point is, she's a very quick study, but she needs some time with the person to see how their mind works before she can understand them (I would think that would be true with anybody).

With Petyr, I think it goes back to her family words, again. She considers Petyr pretty much as one of the family, and she says several times how he has been like a brother to her. She has many fond experiences of their growing up together, and doesn't realize how much she's changed. Also, Littlefinger is good at keeping that mask on, esp. for Cat when he sees her. He knows the part he must play if she will trust him. And she, like everyone else who tries to play with Littlefinger, is deceived. Outmatched, if you will.

I think all in all, she gives absolutely brilliant advice and while she IS sad, I don't think she deserves people's hatred.

Well I adore Cat and personally, I don't care whether people like or her or not, as long as those reasons are actually based upon evidence in the text.

You are quite right about Catelyn. She has a hard time judging people she doesn't know, just like everyone else! :) But, once she has had some time to observe, she is very accurate. She knows that Tyrion is the cunning one, she knew not to trust Theon, she correctly judged about Roose.

Treating a child coldly and distantly under your own roof is a clear sign to that kid that he will never be accepted imto your family, just because he/she was born. Children feel this stuff and it affects them. Its petty, bring your beef to the man in your life that cheated, taking it out on a child will get you zero props coming from me.

I fail to see how Cat gets a pass on this and telling this child that he should have been the one dying, even if she was tired and grief stricken. We know how she feels about Jon from her pov's, so does Jon whether you choose to believe it or not.

Hmmm, except that he was. Jon ate with the faily, was taught weapons with all the other boys, was very close to Robb and Arya, had the exact same education as the other children. He was very much a member of the faily.

She did bring her beef to Ned. He intimated her in to silence and forbid her to ever speak of it again. Catelyn also says in all their years of marriage it is the only time he ever frightened her.

"this" being the argument thatcat is only mean to jon once.

I already mentioned that i need to see if im right about the quote and i have no searchable copy of the texts.

She can give good advice and make tactical and or strategic blunders. She was right more often than being wrong.

Ok she wasnt frustrated about not being listened to, she just openly defied robb in front of hiswhole army out of love for her daughters.

I wasnt necessarily saying that you said I cant not like Catelyn, sorry it came off that way. Cat's defenders certainly give that impression.

Mullen Wino - let us know when you find all these examples in the text where Cat was mean to Jon? I have a strong feeling we will be waiting here a very long time.

[Lady Arwen]

Treating a child coldly and distantly under your own roof is a clear sign to that kid that he will never be accepted imto your family, just because he/she was born. Children feel this stuff and it affects them. Its petty, bring your beef to the man in your life that cheated, taking it out on a child will get you zero props coming from me.

I fail to see how Cat gets a pass on this and telling this child that he should have been the one dying, even if she was tired and grief stricken. We know how she feels about Jon from her pov's, so does Jon whether you choose to believe it or not.

Jon felt that he would never be accepted into the family for reasons other than simply Cat's attitude towards him. He reflects on how Sansa had kept her distance from him, and how even Robb made an innocent comment about him being a bastard once when they were little. I wouldn't put the onus of Jon feeling like an outsider solely on Cat (not that you were doing that specifically).

Cat's feelings towards Jon also never prevented him from largely enjoying a similar upbringing as the Stark kids. We know he trained alongside Robb, played with all the others, and was very much included. He even mentions having handled Ice loads and loads of times, which seems like a pretty sweet privilege. So what if he didn't get to sit with the family when the king and his court visited? I fail to see how Cat's coldness toward Jon ruined his childhood.

[Kittykatknits]

Yes. I agree with this so much. Cat didn't have to be cold and distant to Jon, but Ned definitely could have let her in on Jon's parentage so that she didn't have to speculate all those years. I don't know that I would have acted any differently in her situation, and I appreciate the realism of her character even more because of that.

I think very few women would have acted differently and it does make for a more accurate character. Essentially, Ned told Cat that he cheated on her and that the proof of that would be in front of her face every single day with her not having any say in it and him refusing to provide her with any explanation. Many women would not react by welcoming that child with open arms. I certainly would not and I feel no guilt over that fact.

[Mulled Wino]

Are you trolling? So far you have not posted anything sensible to back up why these things are huge mistakes. You state that they are, but have nothing to say why. Until you do, it's going to be your opinion which is loosely based on something you misinterpreted. In other words: it has no basis in the actual text.

This has been going on for about 2 days now and Ive responded directly to you which you have conveniently ignored or responed to which i have countered. Sometimes it was you, sometimes is was another anoter poster in between.

When i get on a computer, not a phone I can requote if you need it.