Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[Winter's Knight]

Cat destroyed the Starks by letting the Kingslayer go. The other stuff is just bravado. I'll break it down for you.

Cat is half to blame for Rob's marriage. Rob was a King in love, surrounded in a world where everyone was doing whatever they wanted. The only positive thing going for Rob between Winterfell and Kingslanding was having the Kingslayer. And his own mother let him go. She might as well of been his best man at that point. Because if there was any doubts of marriage going through Rob's mind, Cat erased them by letting the Jamie go.

Robb had married before he found out about Jaime.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think you are confused with the tv show. Book Cat is not responsible for Robb's marriage. At all. And in the show she was clearly correct to release jaime. I'd confine your hate to one medium if I were you. Unless you were being sarcastic too?

[Swordsaint]

Robb had married before he found out about Jaime.

Really? My bad, been a while. I get confused between the show and books sometimes. Cat still royally screwed Rob by letting Jamie go though.

[Heathered]

Wow! I think I am going back to the other thread. WARNING: only Cat lover's here!

I prefer dogs anyway. (Yes, this is a shout out to the Hound.)

[Swordsaint]

I think you are confused with the tv show. Book Cat is not responsible for Robb's marriage. At all. And in the show she was clearly correct to release jaime. I'd confine your hate to one medium if I were you. Unless you were being sarcastic too?

I completely disagree with you as for the show. I could understand her doing it if Littlefinger had brought the girls to a near by location for trade. But never on the word of a man she knew betrayed her husband, and certainly not on Jamie's word. Even if Tyrion's seal was on a letter, which I might have missed. it's just not the same. Not when you're enemies and lives are at stake. I would have let the Karstark's kill Jamie and see what happens next. Sansa is just a little girl, killing her wouldn't accomplish much at that point, and by letting Jamie go, there is nothing from stopping them from killing Sansa anyways.

[Kittykatknits]

I completely disagree with you as for the show. I could understand her doing it if Littlefinger had brought the girls to a near by location for trade. But never on the word of a man she knew betrayed her husband, and certainly not on Jamie's word. Even if Tyrion's seal was on a letter, which I might have missed. it's just not the same. Not when you're enemies and lives are at stake. I would have let the Karstark's kill Jamie and see what happens next. Sansa is just a little girl, killing her wouldn't accomplish much at that point, and by letting Jamie go they could kill Sansa with no worries.

She wasn't counting on Jaime's word, she was counting on Tyrion who said in open court in front of lots of witnesses that he would exchange Jaime for her daughters. Even Jaime knew this. It's in his first chapter in Storm.

Winter's Knight, I think this thread is lost on some people.

[Queen Cersei I]

And we're off! Everyone be sure to continue to use as many strawman arguments and ad hominem attacks as possible, or else it won't be a proper Catelyn thread. Have fun :D

No need, my good ser, because I think I’ve managed to isolate the one true cause of each and every mistake, personality flaw, and sin that has been attributed to Cat over the years.

On an earlier thread, Apple Martini wrote:


Yes. Caitlyn got Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon off ye olde postman.


That Ned Stark’s watery seed was too weak to sire five children upon is wife is well known; however, Martini errs in her assumption that the father of Arya, Robb, Sansa, and little Riccon was “ye olde postman.” A natural assumption, but (alas for Cat!) postmen do not exist in Westeros, so she was denied that outlet for her passions.

And this, in essence, is the source of each and every personality failing of Catelyn Stark—a deep sense of sexual frustration. The deep, significant role that sexuality in general and the male genatalia in particular plays in the lives of women everywhere has been remarked upon by philosophers and psychologists for centuries; by everyone from Aristotle to Freud. However, the crucial role that sex has played in Cat’s development has been, by the innocent, school boyish posters on these boards, thus far shockingly overlooked. But no more.

In her initial sex scene with Ned, Cat is unable to articulate the exact nature of her frustrated passions and thwarted desires, as so many 1960’s housewives were in their passionless marriages. * But any sensible reader can read between the lines of her apparently casual comments, and see the deep frustration and dissatisfaction with Ned’s sexual inadequacy that lies beneath.

For instance:

“Her loins ached with their lovemaking. It was a good ache.”

Her we have both proof positive that Ned has all the suavity and sophistication of a 15-year-old schoolboy in the sack (aching loins? Way to go with the foreplay, Ned buddy!) and that she is directly denying the frustration she feels, covering it with a phony veneer of affection. (Seriously? A “good ache?”)

Later, the full extent of Cat’s suffering is made clear when she notes,

“…he rolled off her as he’d done hundreds of times before.”

Incredulous, the reader is forced to reread this little bombshell over and over again, laughing with disbelief. Yes ladies and gentlemen, Cat told it true—in 15+ years of marriage, Ned has tried another position save missionary.

Cat’s unthinking acceptance of this makes it all the sadder; it shows that not only is Ned hopes sly inadequate and sexually uncreative; but that Cat has actually forced herself to believe it’s normal that he’s sexually inadequate and uncreative.

The next sign of Cat’s deep sexual frustration comes when she encounters a man everything Ned Stark is not—sexy, confident, fiery, virile, blonde. Yes, I speak of Jaime Lannister, whom Cat pretends to hate; but whom clearly ignited a fire in Cat that burned her alive and led her to wreak havoc on all those around her with her denied passions.

When the kingslayer (wounded and captured but still sexy as all get out) is imprisoned by Cat, the good widow is struck, unsurprisingly, by the need to visit him in his dungeon. Unfortunately, Cat cannot bring herself to beg him for what she most wants—nay, needs!—from him. This unarticulated longing comes to a painful and humiliating climax when Jaime, oblivious to Cat’s burning ardor, mocks her, inviting her to sleep with him. Cat blathers about the offense her son would have taken at Jaime’s comments. (Note, though, that she does not say that SHE is offended by them. Ever.)

Jaime then scoffs at Cat, telling her she is “not half so lovely as Cersei.” Clearly, though Cat internally denies the shame of this rejection, in her heart of heart she is deeply hurt. To quote: “His smile cut like a knife.” (So thinks Cat after Jaime’s told her she’s not hot enough to bang.) Clearly, Cat’s thwarted, unrealized passion for the kingslayer is a major factor in her behavior from this point onward. Does anyone truly buy that Cat totally lost it and freed Jaime for her children’s sake? Please. Cat was totally hot for the young lion, and driven into a mad frenzy by her lust. It was not a silly love for her children; but a burning passion for the Kingslayer, that ultimately drove her to set her hostage free.

In short, Cat’s sexual frustration is clearly a key factor in her personality, perhaps THE key factor. It seems to me that her mistakes, her failings, even her ambivalence towards Jon Snow can be traced back to this issue.

Much ink has been spilt over the issue of whether Cat is unforgivable or misunderstood. Yet clearly now it is time for all of us to put such small issues aside, and see Cat for what she was—a long suffering woman whose husband was crap in bed.

*I.E, "the problem that has no name."

[Winter's Knight]

QCI, I am awed by your genius. :bowdown:

Winter's Knight, I think this thread is lost on some people.

It's meant to be yet another Cat-discussion board. I had hoped that a humourous OP might keep the tone light.

Ah well, c'est la vie.

[Swordsaint]

She wasn't counting on Jaime's word, she was counting on Tyrion who said in open court in front of lots of witnesses that he would exchange Jaime for her daughters. Even Jaime knew this. It's in his first chapter in Storm.

Winter's Knight, I think this thread is lost on some people.

There were a lot of witnesses in open court the day Cersei Ripped up Robbert Baratheon's letter confirming Ned Stark as lord protector. As the saying go's "words are wind". If I was in Cat's shoes, after what happened to my husband, the only way I would make a trade is if my children were close enough for a confirmation.

[Ser Hippie]

Thank God, a Catelyn hate thread, it'd been literally minutes since I last saw a post criticizing her. The vile wench is guilty of so many things in this series that I don't think I can fit them all in.

Catelyn Stark is the Great Other

Catelyn Stark burned down Summerhall

Catelyn Stark lit the fire that burned Rickard Stark

Catelyn Stark cheated on Ned with Varys

Catelyn Stark stole Daenarys' dragons in TV Qarth

[Lady Lea]

Dammit Queen Cersei! now everytime I reread AGOT all I'll be able to think is "Ned only does it missionary style"

[Kittykatknits]

I bet she secretly started Robert's Rebellion too by forcing Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna.

[Lady Lea]

She's probably the one who drove king Aerys mad in the first place, too

[Winter's Knight]

Dammit Queen Cersei! now everytime I reread AGOT all I'll be able to think is "Ned only does it missionary style"

But we know why he's so uncreative-he's not interested in Cat now is he? *wink**wink*Muscled like a maiden's dream.

[Yuri Targaryen]

She's a loving mother, loving wife and a decent, good person. Many people prefer Gregor or Ramsay, but that's life... Love you Cat!

[loveigniting09]

Cat's the reason the seasons are unbalanced.

In all seriousness, I can accept people disliking Cat but I don't understand the virulence with which she is hated. She's the character I probably feel for the most.

[Helgar]

Cat is just one of those characters that people dislike because her chapters are, uh... angsty, I guess? Controversial? Not as colorful as Arya's and Tyrion's? Davos would probably be among those characters too, but here in these forums we beat up anyone who doesn't like Davos. Metaphorically, of course.

The thing is Cat has a different mindset than most people. We, as readers and fans, may be fascinated over who wins in the end, we may be making threads about Varys vs Littlefinger, threads about how we don't want Dany on the throne or we don't want Jon on the throne, or about how Stannis would make a good or bad king and so on -- because all that stuff is what gives the series its unique flavor. But Cat is not a reader and fan of the series and simply does not care. She is a mother, and what she cares about is the safety and happiness of her family. I imagine that Catelyn was at her happiest in Winterfell, surrounded by her husband and children, with no fear for their lives. And then she is thrust into a deadly war that makes her lose everything, even her own life. I can absolutely understand why Lady Stoneheart is like she is. She has nothing left in the world now. All she has is the people who took away all she held dear. What would you do? Sue for peace?

And regarding Jon Snow... Jon is one of my favorite characters, but I can understand where Cat is coming from. She believes that Ned cheated on her. The matter of Jon Snow is the only complaint she ever had from her husband, the only thing she could never forgive in him. It wouldn't matter if Ned had kept Jon away from Winterfell, but bringing him in the castle and letting him in the company of her own children... she must definitely find that an insult and a threat to her own children as well.

Of course, Jon actually turned out to be a very good person and he would never think of using underhanded means to take Winterfell from his siblings. In fact, he loves every single one of them, especially Robb and Arya. We know that because we are in Jon's head and we can hear his thoughts. But Catelyn doesn't know that... and I think it's easier for her to believe that Jon is a bad person, and to not trust him, because then she won't feel guilty over having such dislike for the boy. That is the biggest flaw in Catelyn's character, in the character of a kind, honorable, modest woman who always tries to do what's best for her family.

I am willing to forgive Catelyn for setting Jaime Lannister free. If I was Sansa I would want my mother to do everything in her power to keep me safe too, even if it was irrational.

[butterbumps!]

I also heard that Cat was responsible for the Doom, and possibly the explosion of the Hindenburg.

Wow! I think I am going back to the other thread. WARNING: only Cat lover's here!

I prefer dogs anyway. (Yes, this is a shout out to the Hound.)

Jokes aside, I wanted to say that I kind of sympathize with your sentiment (though I like Cat tremendously, so not literally in this instance :cool4: ), because I think a lot of the characters either resonate or don't personally, and it's sometimes just a matter of taste or an issue of how we individually frame our priorities. Sometimes the characters we don't like aren't necessarily the villains or objective bad guys, and god knows I like the chance to express that now and again. I think the issue with Cat and Sansa though is that sometimes the vitriol gets to a level of abuse that's almost offensive depending on what's being called out.

[Jolene Brown]

I know this is meant to be a humorous thread, but I do think there is a reason people hate Cat (I don't) more than you would expect. I think because she is comparatively realistic, the way that she often judges others (her worst quality, although she has many other positive ones to compensate for it) can bother people at a more personal level than the more outlandish crimes of some of the other characters. Most of us (thank god) have probably never been victimized by a Gregor Clegane or a Ramsay Bolton, but many of us have felt judged by a Cat Stark type individual in our lives - perhaps a co-worker, or a parent, or a teacher, so I think her cruelty toward Jon, so early in the series, her bad judgment when it came to Tyrion, and her other self-righteous moments when it came to her brother, to Lysa, and some other characters tend to evoke a more personal response.

[TWR]

I'm not a Cat fan, but I understand some of her motivations. My wife would trade an entire country for 1 of our kids without thinking twice. I think this is just a normal reaction from mothers. For guys it's a little different. How can you ask someone else to sacrifice their family members if you're not willing to do the same?

The only instance where I thought she was just a complete bitch is when she told Jon it should've been him. I get that she's grieving, but if Jon had beat her to death with his bare hands in that moment I wouldn't have thouhgt less of him. 14 years worth of eating shit sandwiches is enough without being told you should be crippled/dying just because.