Catelyn Stark: A Denouncement

[Kittyhat]

Really? Because GRRM said the scene Cat had with Jon wasn't usual at all and was a one off. You can read between the lines until your eyes bleed but GRRM himself has stated she isn't frequently cruel to him. So, sorry "common sense"?

Common sense dictates that every day with her was an exercise in being treated like an intruder, and this is supported by the text.

And yes, it's emotional abuse of an innocent child.

And no, it is not okay. This is not something I will debate; as far as I'm concerned, it's as non-negotiable as "the world is round."

[Fred Stark]

I find it very funny that many hate Cat just because she hates Jon Snow which happens to be a favourite character of many(definitely not mine).

See it from her POV.This is a women who was loyal to her husband,gave her virginity to her husband ans carries his child and then finds out that her husband Ned who is well known for his honour that he has a bastard child.Plus he orders her not to ask any question regarding Jon's mother and raises him as his own.Jon Snow was the symbol of her husband adultery.To the outsiders,Jon Snow is a symbol of Cat's failure as a wife that her husband went for another woman despite having a wife.

She has all the valid reasons to be angry and mistreat Jon.Plus ,its not like she abused him.She was only cold and distant.She never prevents her childrens to mingle with Jon and she doesnt prevent Ned and Jon being close.She just dont talk to him and just ignore him.If you ask me that is better than how Tyein treated Tyrion or Balon treated Theon.

If your spouse bring a child and ask you not to ask anything about the third party and raises the child as his own,would you love the child just as yours?

[Kittyhat]

Emotional abuse LOL...

Got to love this board. Murders are easily excused (see Tyrion, Jaime, Arya...hell, pretty much every popular character), but cold looks towards the super awesome fantastic hero Jon "The Cliche" Snow = unforgivable and utterly despicable behaviour.

Except I don't even like Jon that much as a character. I don't hate him, but I do find him fairly boring.

My problem with her behavior is strictly related to that behavior, not the character at whom it was directed. You might be able to accuse me of bias if it were, say, Daenerys she mistreated instead. ;)

[Lyanna Stark]

Common sense dictates that every day with her was an exercise in being treated like an intruder, and this is supported by the text.

And yes, it's emotional abuse of an innocent child.

You have an odd definition of "emotional abuse" since they interacted very little as Cat was "cold and distant". And clearly from what we have seen on Jon and his memories, he spent a significant amount of time around the other Stark kids, which meant that to Cat he may have been an intruder, but there is no evidence in the text that he was barred from the "normal activities" like education, weapons training etc. In fact, everything speaks to the opposite: in these things, he was included.

The only action Cat took was to be distant and cold. Not abusive. She did not prevent Jon's education or him spending time with the other Stark children.

And no, it is not okay. This is not something I will debate; as far as I'm concerned, it's as non-negotiable as "the world is round."

Sure, debate it, but so far you have not come up with anything convincing from the text that Cat abused Jon emotionally. Unless your definition of that is "the absence of love".

So far your main argument was that the scene with Bran was commonplace, which has been proven false, including by Word of God.

[butterbumps!]

Catlyn was a walking disaster, and in reality a pretty evil bitch. She tells Jon "It should have been you." How can any mother raise children and have nothing but venomous hatred towards one in her household just because she's not his mother?

Did he ask to be bastard-born?

Catlyn and Danyres make horrible choices in this story, in my opinion.

I'm isolating this post in particular, because I think it's a good example of the hyperbole that typifies the more negative readings of Catelyn. "Evil," really? First, aside from the one quote at Bran's bedside, there isn't textual evidence to support that Cat had "venomous" hatred for Jon in either Cat or Jon's POVs. When Cat thinks of Jon, she typically feels a rush of shame (because when people cheat on you and the whole world knows, it tends to be embarrassing), but it does not stop her from sympathizing with Mya Stone, who she knows won't be able to marry the guy of her dreams because of her social status.

I just think it's getting really carried away to use terms like "evil" and maintain that there was "venomous hate" involved. I tend to reserve "evil" for the characters who, for example, actually engage in crimes against humanity, and there is certainly no shortage of those in this story.

More generally though- to those who maintain that Cat harbored hatred toward Jon and treated him badly: What textual evidence is there that this is the case? Do you mind getting more specific with citations, because I can't think of anything offhand.

[LordBloodraven]

I find it very funny that many hate Cat just because she hates Jon Snow which happens to be a favourite character of many(definitely not mine).

See it from her POV.This is a women who was loyal to her husband,gave her virginity to her husband ans carries his child and then finds out that her husband Ned who is well known for his honour that he has a bastard child.Plus he orders her not to ask any question regarding Jon's mother and raises him as his own.Jon Snow was the symbol of her husband adultery.To the outsiders,Jon Snow is a symbol of Cat's failure as a wife that her husband went for another woman despite having a wife.

She has all the valid reasons to be angry and mistreat Jon.Plus ,its not like she abused him.She was only cold and distant.She never prevents her childrens to mingle with Jon and she doesnt prevent Ned and Jon being close.She just dont talk to him and just ignore him.If you ask me that is better than how Tyein treated Tyrion or Balon treated Theon.

If your spouse bring a child and ask you not to ask anything about the third party and raises the child as his own,would you love the child just as yours?

Unless I misread you, I don't find the difference between mistreat and abuse. There are never valid reasons to misread a child, I can understand her anger though. Ned put them in that situation though he had his reasons. Cat had hers to keep her distance from Jon though, it's perfectly understandable but mistreatment is never right.

[dark sister]

Common sense dictates that every day with her was an exercise in being treated like an intruder, and this is supported by the text.

And yes, it's emotional abuse of an innocent child.

And no, it is not okay. This is not something I will debate; as far as I'm concerned, it's as non-negotiable as "the world is round."

Actually, it's the opposite. And if you say it's supported by the text, let's please get a quotation so that you can support your theory, please?

The text supports that Jon and Robb did indeed grow up as close as brothers. Jon was especially close to Arya, and Jon also remembers everything that Ned taught him. One example I remember especially is when he counsels Stannis to go to the mountain clans, and to win "Big Bucket and The Flint" and feast with them, etc. etc. He grew up with the other Stark children in every single way (I can quote many examples of this fact if you'd like), and we have no proof of his interactions with Catelyn, aside from the fact that she was cold with him. Being cold to a child you can't even ask your husband about is not a crime.

Also, will everyone stop ignoring the SSM where Martin says, unequivocally, that Catelyn's "it should have been you" scene was completely and utterly out of character? Sorry, I don't know what kind of family you grew up in, but I don't call that child abuse. I've grown up with abuse, and if I heard that one time in my life, I wouldn't consider myself "abused".

Here's another point: if that scene was so hurtful and abusive, why doesn't Jon ever think about it? You'd think if it were so important, it would haunt him, the way that his interactions with Ygritte haunts him, or the dreams of the crypts of Winterfell haunt him. Obviously, it didn't cut him to the bone as everyone seems to think it did.

[Fred Stark]

Emotional abuse LOL...

Got to love this board. Murders are easily excused (see Tyrion, Jaime, Arya...hell, pretty much every popular character), but cold looks towards the super awesome fantastic hero Jon "The Cliche" Snow = unforgivable and utterly despicable behaviour.

Yeah I agree with you.They seem to forget much more cruel things but a small thing like Cat being cold and distant as something big.

For instance take Tyrion killing Shae.If you ask me ,Shae did everything she did just because she wants to survive(Cersei blackmailing her) and Tyrion killing her was really cruel and brutal.If the situation was reverse and it was Shae that was accused of the killing Joffrey,I dont think he would sacrifice his life to save Shae.He would try to use his gold but not his life.Fans forget stuff like this but make something less serious as a big issue.

[ARYa_Nym]

You know if Brandon got around as much as people like to say then he should have a few bastards and not just the supposed one with Ashara Dayne.

I would love for one of them to show up.

[Mulled Wino]

Common sense dictates that every day with her was an exercise in being treated like an intruder, and this is supported by the text.

And yes, it's emotional abuse of an innocent child.

And no, it is not okay. This is not something I will debate; as far as I'm concerned, it's as non-negotiable as "the world is round."

Correctomundo.

[Larry of the Lawn]

I don't fault Cat for letting Jaime go, especially because that chapter has to be one of the best in the whole series, and the conversation she has with Jaime is one of the most memorable. The only thing that bugs me about Cat is that while she is so smart about some things - as a military adviser to Robb, telling him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands - she's so blind about the dagger sent to kill Bran. She knows Tyrion is cunning but doesn't find it strange that the assassin shows up with some crazy expensive valyrian steel dagger. It should have been obvioust to her that Tyrion wouldn't be so stupid to commission such a opaque assassination attempt.

Also, while she does a great job in the Inn of getting the men at arms there to support her in taking him into custody, and misdirecting the pursuit by saying they're taking the kingsroad but really they go to the Vale, all brilliant. But she's so off-base with her accusation in the first place. Is it just a mother's rage at an attempt on her son's life that blinds her? Or her exessive trust in Littlefinger?

All in all, that inconsistency just had to happen to move the plot along.

Yeah but I do think that for what she is as a character, Cat get's way too much hate. I wasn't really enthralled with her chapters the first time through, but on the reread her POV's are awesome.

[sillent]

I really dont understand all the Cat hate. I mean I wasn't the biggest fan of her chapters in ACOK but that doesnt mean I hated the character.

As for this whole emotionally abusing Jon Snow. Think about this: Bran could possibly have died. Most of her family was leaving her for Kings Landing AND she hadn't slept in days... if that doesn't constitute an extreme situation I dont know what does.

Have you never been extremely hungry or deprived of sleep and found yourself being super cranky and lashing out at everyone. I'm guessing this would be amplified if you were in a room with someone you really didn't want there.. so I really don't see how that one incident means that this was completely commonplace and would happen all the time to Jon Snow.

The only abuse really I see Jon having suffered was what abuse any bastard suffers: knowing he's a bastard. Apart from that he had a pretty good life. He had siblings that loved him, a father that loved him. He was raised as a highborn- given proper education and sword training and what not. He was on good terms with almost all of Winterfell minus Cat.

[ARYa_Nym]

I don't think she was mean to him besides the I need no absolution from you bastard and the it should have been you comment.

A lot of it was in head. He thought she didn't want him there since she didn't say his name until he was 14. & the looks he interpreted when he was playing with Robb and bested him at anything. Jon mentioned that he was a better swordsman than Robb. He thought Catelyn would have been happy to hear him say that Arya wasn't his sister so he can't help her.

I'm not sure if that's true. I'm sure she wouldn't care who it was but that someone would save her from Ramsay.

[dark sister]

Catlyn was a walking disaster, and in reality a pretty evil bitch. She tells Jon "It should have been you." How can any mother raise children and have nothing but venomous hatred towards one in her household just because she's not his mother?

Did he ask to be bastard-born?

Catlyn and Danyres make horrible choices in this story, in my opinion.

Wow. First of all, learn to spell the characters' names right before you use such inane hyperbole.

Second, you give no reason(s) as to why Catelyn was a "walking disaster".

Yes, she told Jon it should have been him. This was very much out of character for her. Family, Duty, Honor are her words, and she lives by them. Jon is not her family. She is loyal to her family first and foremost. That doesn't excuse her saying it, but try to get inside of her head for one second. She was mad with grief. When she sees the library on fire, she says "thank the gods" because her first thought is that the fire isn't anywhere near Bran. After she is attacked by that catspaw, she wakes up and feels completely ashamed, and realizes that those weeks were like a dream state to her -- a typical feeling for those who have had a psychotic break with reality, which is what I personally feel she was suffering from.

She is not an evil bitch. When she met Brienne, she could have had the reaction that other high-born ladies and even peasant women had, but she didn't. She bonded with her and tried to get past the walls that surrounded her, to befriend her. Could you imagine Cersei doing that.

Which leads me into my next question. If you think that Cat is a walking disaster and an evil bitch, what is your opinion of Cersei Lannister?

That's not it at all.

Then what is it?

[Mulled Wino]

Actually, it's the opposite. And if you say it's supported by the text, let's please get a quotation so that you can support your theory, please?

The text supports that Jon and Robb did indeed grow up as close as brothers. Jon was especially close to Arya, and Jon also remembers everything that Ned taught him. One example I remember especially is when he counsels Stannis to go to the mountain clans, and to win "Big Bucket and The Flint" and feast with them, etc. etc. He grew up with the other Stark children in every single way (I can quote many examples of this fact if you'd like), and we have no proof of his interactions with Catelyn, aside from the fact that she was cold with him. Being cold to a child you can't even ask your husband about is not a crime.

Also, will everyone stop ignoring the SSM where Martin says, unequivocally, that Catelyn's "it should have been you" scene was completely and utterly out of character? Sorry, I don't know what kind of family you grew up in, but I don't call that child abuse. I've grown up with abuse, and if I heard that one time in my life, I wouldn't consider myself "abused".

Here's another point: if that scene was so hurtful and abusive, why doesn't Jon ever think about it? You'd think if it were so important, it would haunt him, the way that his interactions with Ygritte haunts him, or the dreams of the crypts of Winterfell haunt him. Obviously, it didn't cut him to the bone as everyone seems to think it did.

Ive already answered this.

But i remember some quote in a jon pov bit i have nothing searchable. Or maybe im wrong.

If you're going to be mean ONCE, she reallh hit a home run. Just like with her strategic blunders.

For the record, she was probably frustrated at having her good advice ignored multiple times amd she went through a familial shitstorm. I dont like how she handled it. Doesnt mean a reader has to like her.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ive already answered this.

But i remember some quote in a jon pov bit i have nothing searchable. Or maybe im wrong.

If you're going to be mean ONCE, she reallh hit a home run. Just like with her strategic blunders.

For the record, she was probably frustrated at having her good advice ignored multiple times amd she went through a familial shitstorm. I dont like how she handled it. Doesnt mean a reader has to like her.

Your words here.

You have no basis for your arguments in the text, same as with her supposed "strategic blunders". You keep saying it, but so far there have been no real arguments posted from you, just what you feel about it with no basis what so ever in the actual text.

[ARYa_Nym]

I keep making random comments but the Jon thing didn't bother me so much except that they weren't necessary. He was trying to be nice to her. I dislike that she engaged Arya to Elmar and never thought about the boy again. She never hoped that he would be good for her if Arya was found. I also noticed on reread that Walder said that the two Walders were good kids and we know that the little one was a Ramsay in training.

Not to mention the deal sucked. Robb was going to be able to pick which one he wanted. He still gets to be Lord of Winterfell. Arya would have stepped down like Genna Lannister did. I understand why Catelyn did it though because she wanted to help Robb in his war efforts.

Elmar was mean to her and when she insulted he tried to grab her so he possibly was going to hit her. Of course he should be more worried about her. He was sickly and therefore no match for her.

[ElizaMartell]

Common sense dictates that every day with her was an exercise in being treated like an intruder, and this is supported by the text.

And yes, it's emotional abuse of an innocent child.

And no, it is not okay. This is not something I will debate; as far as I'm concerned, it's as non-negotiable as "the world is round."

Common sense would dictate you do not equate a one of incident as emotional abuse to a child. It one completely misrepresents the relationship that Jon and Cat had with each other and devalues the true trauma of child emotional abuse. One outburst does no equate to abuse. And the offhanded use of it doesn't appear really bode well with one claiming to have "common sense".

Its amazing how much this fandom will excuse anything that some of their favourite characters have done over the series but Catelyn wrongly shouting at Jon somehow means she is an evil bitch stepmother who abused poor wittle Won Won when he was in Winterfell. People's misplaced anger at Cat makes them create scenarios and faults that never happened in the text.

[Mulled Wino]

I don't fault Cat for letting Jaime go, especially because that chapter has to be one of the best in the whole series, and the conversation she has with Jaime is one of the most memorable. The only thing that bugs me about Cat is that while she is so smart about some things - as a military adviser to Robb, telling him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands - she's so blind about the dagger sent to kill Bran. She knows Tyrion is cunning but doesn't find it strange that the assassin shows up with some crazy expensive valyrian steel dagger. It should have been obvioust to her that Tyrion wouldn't be so stupid to commission such a opaque assassination attempt.

Also, while she does a great job in the Inn of getting the men at arms there to support her in taking him into custody, and misdirecting the pursuit by saying they're taking the kingsroad but really they go to the Vale, all brilliant. But she's so off-base with her accusation in the first place. Is it just a mother's rage at an attempt on her son's life that blinds her? Or her exessive trust in Littlefinger?

All in all, that inconsistency just had to happen to move the plot along.

Yeah but I do think that for what she is as a character, Cat get's way too much hate. I wasn't really enthralled with her chapters the first time through, but on the reread her POV's are awesome.

I dont see why you let the Jamie thing slide though.

Maybe Cat's chapters will do it for me on the third reread, which I'm not motivated to start. i didnt like Sansa on my first read, but really enjoyed her chapters on my reread.

@ nym People think its ok for Cat to be cold towards jon snow. I dont. Its not his fault Ned's a total ahole and wont tell her the damn truth. And i dont care if it was jon snow or the bastard was freakin hodor.

[dark sister]

I don't fault Cat for letting Jaime go, especially because that chapter has to be one of the best in the whole series, and the conversation she has with Jaime is one of the most memorable. The only thing that bugs me about Cat is that while she is so smart about some things - as a military adviser to Robb, telling him not to send Theon to the Iron Islands - she's so blind about the dagger sent to kill Bran. She knows Tyrion is cunning but doesn't find it strange that the assassin shows up with some crazy expensive valyrian steel dagger. It should have been obvioust to her that Tyrion wouldn't be so stupid to commission such a opaque assassination attempt.

Also, while she does a great job in the Inn of getting the men at arms there to support her in taking him into custody, and misdirecting the pursuit by saying they're taking the kingsroad but really they go to the Vale, all brilliant. But she's so off-base with her accusation in the first place. Is it just a mother's rage at an attempt on her son's life that blinds her? Or her exessive trust in Littlefinger?

All in all, that inconsistency just had to happen to move the plot along.

Yeah but I do think that for what she is as a character, Cat get's way too much hate. I wasn't really enthralled with her chapters the first time through, but on the reread her POV's are awesome.

I think you bring up some great points! Obviously Cat has a blind spot: with people she doesn't know very well, it's hard for her to know exactly how they might or might not orchestrate something. You mentioned Tyrion and how he would be too cunning to use that dagger. Well, that is true, but people must keep in mind that Catelyn had only met Tyrion once (or maybe twice?) at that point. She didn't know how he thought. But by the time he had weaseled his way out of the Eyrie, she knew by book 2 how his mind worked, and considered him to be the most cunning and dangerous of the Lannisters (which is true). The point is, she's a very quick study, but she needs some time with the person to see how their mind works before she can understand them (I would think that would be true with anybody).

With Petyr, I think it goes back to her family words, again. She considers Petyr pretty much as one of the family, and she says several times how he has been like a brother to her. She has many fond experiences of their growing up together, and doesn't realize how much she's changed. Also, Littlefinger is good at keeping that mask on, esp. for Cat when he sees her. He knows the part he must play if she will trust him. And she, like everyone else who tries to play with Littlefinger, is deceived. Outmatched, if you will.

I think all in all, she gives absolutely brilliant advice and while she IS sad, I don't think she deserves people's hatred.