Who will win the battle of Winterfell?

[Lord Stannis Baratheon]

I read this argument over and over again. It doesn't make any sense!!!!

Stannis is a great battle commander, I get that. But when you take 1.000 sick, starving footsoldiers, and you have to fight 2.000 soldiers on horses, you're gonna lose. That's not bad writing. On the contrary. It would have been bad, cliche superhero writing to turn a great battle commander into some kind of magician / Jesus Christ.

What has Stannis versus Ramsay to do with the inevitable outcome (if the script is at least somewhat realistic) of this battle????

300 men killed and almost won thousands warriors from the Persian Empire?why cant Stannis win?

If war were arithmetic, the mathematicians would rule the world....

[The Citadel of Masyaf]

The books have setup Stannis to eventually take Winterfell. At the very least, the show's version of the Battle of Ice is essentially impossible to replicate in the Winds of Winter. The sample chapter would have to be basically retconned out of existence for it to be plausible. Not just the huge advantages, forewarning, and apparent plan, but the whole signing of the contract with the Iron Bank's representative would be illogical if Stannis immediately died after that event. The Battle of Ice is clearly intended to echo Robert's battle near Summerhall.

The Boltons serve little continuing purpose in the books. Their extirpation and elimination from Winterfell would logically follow from what is occurring. The Wildling plot arc makes more sense if that happens.

It could be the case that Stannis dies some point in TWOW after taking Winterfell. Perhaps fighting the Others. Alternately, it could be that the show producers have decided to ditch Stannis through the creation of a substitute. If Stannis is destined to become a second Night's King in the books, the show may have filled that role with a lesser substitute.

The sample chapter has essentially confirmed the outcome of the Battle of Ice. The battle of Winterfell's outcome is less certain, but still tilted toward Stannis/allied northern lords/Wildling allies.

[[Deleted]]

The books have setup Stannis to eventually take Winterfell. At the very least, the show's version of the Battle of Ice is essentially impossible to replicate in the Winds of Winter. The sample chapter would have to be basically retconned out of existence for it to be plausible. Not just the huge advantages, forewarning, and apparent plan, but the whole signing of the contract with the Iron Bank's representative would be illogical if Stannis immediately died after that event. The Battle of Ice is clearly intended to echo Robert's battle near Summerhall.

The Boltons serve little continuing purpose in the books. Their extirpation and elimination from Winterfell would logically follow from what is occurring. The Wildling plot arc makes more sense if that happens.

It could be the case that Stannis dies some point in TWOW after taking Winterfell. Perhaps fighting the Others. Alternately, it could be that the show producers have decided to ditch Stannis through the creation of a substitute. If Stannis is destined to become a second Night's King in the books, the show may have filled that role with a lesser substitute.

The sample chapter has essentially confirmed the outcome of the Battle of Ice. The battle of Winterfell's outcome is less certain, but still tilted toward Stannis/allied northern lords/Wildling allies.

We still don't know if the deserting happens in the books. If Stannis does something stupid right before the battle and loses half his army, he could still lose. Maybe the show combines two plots and had Stannis burn Shireen as the stupid act, but perhaps in the books he does something else which causes him to lose the loyalty of his men.

I think the Boltons are going to stick around for awhile.

[Slowpoke Martin]

I read this argument over and over again. It doesn't make any sense!!!!

Stannis is a great battle commander, I get that. But when you take 1.000 sick, starving footsoldiers, and you have to fight 2.000 soldiers on horses, you're gonna lose. That's not bad writing. On the contrary. It would have been bad, cliche superhero writing to turn a great battle commander into some kind of magician / Jesus Christ.

What has Stannis versus Ramsay to do with the inevitable outcome (if the script is at least somewhat realistic) of this battle????

That was not bad writing? Do you even know what bad writing is?

Stannis was mentioned as having more men than the Boltons. He had 6000 men when he marched, lost half of them after burning Shireen, and possibly lost some men along the way to Winterfell.

So lets say he had around 2500 when he arrived at Winterfell.

The Boltons ride towards them on what looks to be around 3x as many men, all of which are CAVALRY. Where the hell did the Boltons get that many cavalry? Stannis supposedly had more men than them when he had 6000.

If you think the Boltons magically having 5000+ cavalry is not bad writing, then you are an IDIOT!

The best battle commander just walks in front of Winterfell, on foot, then gets his ass handed to him by an army pulled out of thin air? Yep, amazing writing.

[Boltons Bastard]

That was not bad writing? Do you even know what bad writing is?

Stannis was mentioned as having more men than the Boltons. He had 6000 men when he marched, lost half of them after burning Shireen, and possibly lost some men along the way to Winterfell.

So lets say he had around 2500 when he arrived at Winterfell.

The Boltons ride towards them on what looks to be around 3x as many men, all of which are CAVALRY. Where the hell did the Boltons get that many cavalry? Stannis supposedly had more men than them when he had 6000.

If you think the Boltons magically having 5000+ cavalry is not bad writing, then you are an IDIOT!

The best battle commander just walks in front of Winterfell, on foot, then gets his ass handed to him by an army pulled out of thin air? Yep, amazing writing.

It is quite bad writing.

For example, if I was a show viewer and not a book reader I would be confused as to how Roose Bolton can return from the South with just as large an army as Robb had when their campaign started. The force that marched through Moat Cailin and assembled outside WF at the end of season four was immense.

[Little Bird of Varys]

Who will win the battle of Winterfell?

My opinion: The White Walkers...

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

That was not bad writing? Do you even know what bad writing is?

Stannis was mentioned as having more men than the Boltons. He had 6000 men when he marched, lost half of them after burning Shireen, and possibly lost some men along the way to Winterfell.

So lets say he had around 2500 when he arrived at Winterfell.

The Boltons ride towards them on what looks to be around 3x as many men, all of which are CAVALRY. Where the hell did the Boltons get that many cavalry? Stannis supposedly had more men than them when he had 6000.

If you think the Boltons magically having 5000+ cavalry is not bad writing, then you are an IDIOT!

The best battle commander just walks in front of Winterfell, on foot, then gets his ass handed to him by an army pulled out of thin air? Yep, amazing writing.

Stannis had about 1,300 troops in that battle scene, which is about the same number as his loyal southron troops in the books. Keep in mind that the additional Northern troops boost his number up to 5,400 in the hooks, which is close to the 6,000 he started with in the show. The Boltons had about 2,000 troops, which is actually less than the amount of troops they have in the books(somewhere around the 3,000 mark, not even counting the Frey army).

So no, the numbers are more or less close to that of the books. Not really bad writing, just not well established enough.

http://m.imgur.com/QSBvfTg

[Slowpoke Martin]

Stannis had about 1,300 troops in that battle scene, which is about the same number as his loyal southron troops in the books. Keep in mind that the additional Northern troops boost his number up to 5,400 in the hooks, which is close to the 6,000 he started with in the show. The Boltons had about 2,000 troops, which is actually less than the amount of troops they have in the books(somewhere around the 3,000 mark, not even counting the Frey army).

So no, the numbers are more or less close to that of the books. Not really bad writing, just not well established enough.

http://m.imgur.com/QSBvfTg

No, I'm talking about the show only. In the show it is mentioned he marches to Winterfell with 6000 men, which is more than the Boltons have (Littlefinger mentions it to Sansa). He loses half of them after burning Shireen and I accounted some more leaving during the march on foot, which I put him as having around 2500 men when he gets to Winterfell.

The Bolton cavalry rides out to meet them, the size of the cavalry looks MASSIVE in comparison to Stannis' army. Where exactly did the Boltons get this massive FULL cavalry army?? From thin air?

That is terrible writing because the writers include all these logistics and just throw around numbers. When you include numbers and in the end they do NOT match up, then it IS terrible writing!

It might be explained when the next season starts, but as it was shown, it was very confusing and incorrect information handed out.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

No, I'm talking about the show only. In the show it is mentioned he marches to Winterfell with 6000 men, which is more than the Boltons have (Littlefinger mentions it to Sansa). He loses half of them after burning Shireen and I accounted some more leaving during the march on foot, which I put him as having around 2500 men when he gets to Winterfell.

The Bolton cavalry rides out to meet them, the size of the cavalry looks MASSIVE in comparison to Stannis' army. Where exactly did the Boltons get this massive FULL cavalry army?? From thin air?

That is terrible writing because the writers include all these logistics and just throw around numbers. When you include numbers and in the end they do NOT match up, then it IS terrible writing!

It might be explained when the next season starts, but as it was shown, it was very confusing and incorrect information handed out.

Look at the picture I linked. It's about 2,000 Boltons troops vs 1,300 Baratheon troops. The Bolton army only looks massive because they are on horse and because they are more spread out. In the books, it's established that the Boltons by themselves have about 3,000 men during ADWD, so the Bolion army out numbering Stannis army by the end of his campaign in the show makes sense. Of course, the problem here is that the Bolton army shouldn't all be mounted

Edit: Actually, according to the wiki page, the Boltons should have about 1,000 cavalry, so maybe if half of that Bolton force was mounted, it wouldn't be too farfetched.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell

[Slowpoke Martin]

Look at the picture I linked. It's about 2,000 Boltons troops vs 1,300 Baratheon troops. The Bolton army only looks massive because they are on horse and because they are more spread out. In the books, it's established that the Boltons by themselves have about 3,000 men during ADWD, so the Bolion army out numbering Stannis army by the end of his campaign in the show makes sense. Of course, the problem here is that the Bolton army shouldn't all be mounted

Edit: Actually, according to the wiki page, the Boltons should have about 1,000 cavalry, so maybe if half of that Bolton force was mounted, it wouldn't be too farfetched.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/March_on_Winterfell

Jesus tap dancing Christ!!

I know what happens in the books, I'm talking about the SHOW ONLY!

Did you even read anything I said? Or just go about mentioning numbers from the books when I was very clearly talking about the show.

Whatever, go about your business.

[Hos the Hostage]

I'm still guessing that Stannis will win the battle of Ice in tWoW. The show dealt that story very badly. I absolutely loved the Theon-Sansa escape, but apart from that everything show-made was nonsensical. We really cannot form speculations about what will happen in the books based on what happened in the show. At most the S5 finale hints that Stannis is unlikely to survive the sixth book. The Winterfell scenario is a lot more complicated in the books, and the show seem to replace the Northern players with familiar faces. Maybe Sansa will play the role of Stannis and the Manderlys in Winds.

I reread the Theon sample chapter and it is clear that Bolton is in a much worse state than he is in the show. The only thing that gave me worries about Stannis's safety is Asha's request to carry out Theon's execution. It is very crackpot-is, but Asha Greyjoy will not give up so easily. She must have some trick up her sleeve before letting her little brother executed, leading to her mother's grief and Euron's kingsmoot being valid. The arrest of the Karstarks has caused some confusion and fear in the camp. If Asha was not Ironborn, she could influence the Northmen to turn against Stannis. Stannis's men are useless in the march to Winterfell, and they seem to be all for burning infidels. But of course this won't work because the Northerners will never forgive the Ironborn. If Asha wrote the pink letter, goading Jon Snow to come south, this could be a ploy part of GNC, with the Northmen and Asha planning to ditch Stannis and declare Jon King in the North and take Winterfell in his name. GRRM has said more betrayals are coming, after all.

Sidenote: I had generally assumed it will be Theon's death that will be the blood sacrifice that will help Bran and Bloodraven bring Jon back to life, but what if Melisandre had the right of it, because if Stannis's death caused Jon to be reborn, that means Stannis(Mel's Azor Ahai) woke a dragon. Maybe she saw Stannis waking a dragon in her fires leading her to belive Stannis is Azor Ahai - she thought the man who woke the dragon(Stannis) was Azor Ahai reborn, but maybe it was the dragon(Jon) who is the real Azor Ahai?

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Jesus tap dancing Christ!!

I know what happens in the books, I'm talking about the SHOW ONLY!

Did you even read anything I said? Or just go about mentioning numbers from the books when I was very clearly talking about the show.

Whatever, go about your business.

And again, I mentioned the numbers from the show.

Boltons have 2,000, how is that hard to comprehend?

[T and A]

Ok ok. You are right. Stanis is gonna win the Battle in the books. He is Azor Ahai. He is gonna sit on the throne at the end. The Show just changed it bebause they are evil. There is actually no sense talking to some people here 😔.

[Curled Finger]

I've stayed away from the forums on purpose since the season finale. Admittedly, I've been searching the show like Mel at the fire hoping for glimpses of Winds of Winter. I got a strangely regurgitated Arya, unrecognizable Dorne and Jamie and realized my secret hope for Stannis. Everything was a lot easier to accept than coming to grips with being a super secret Stannis fan. Turns out I've come to be fond of Stannis as something of an unlikeable Ned. I know that's dangerously close to blasphemy, but can't help it. To rationalize, Ned had to be smarter than the guy who spilled his entire plan to Cersei of all people and Stannis doesn't actually appear to have any ambition to me. He seems to want this throne the same way I want to root for him, begrudginingly and reluctantly. I was shocked at the ruination of a really interesting character, but over the past few days reality has settled in and thankfully, the show is not the books again. The GNC is my favorite theory. Read the Huis Clos twice--can't get enough of this clever idea. But I still think there were slivers of future truth in the past show season. Never even occurred to me that Stannis would lose the battle for Winterfell. Roose & Co really really need a stern lesson in humility. Ramsay sucks, the Freys suck. Lady Dustin sucks, but she interesting. Book Stannis isn't ambitious or fervent enough to burn his only child to win this battle. That will be all Mel and her sycophants. Now that the pink letter has been turned on its ear, perhaps Stannis will lose the battle but cause enough damage and confusion for the Boltons to allow the loyal Northerners to win back the North without his Southern interference. Ok, it's a begrudging Stannis admiration here. The North has always been separate from the rest of the kingdom and I never could fully piece together how they would get away from Stannis if he won this battle. I couldn't see them actually swearing for him--that blows the whole North mystique for me..it's one thing to hate the new boss, but oust him for a Southerner? No way. The North wants to be far away from Southern politics and intrigue, they wont embrace Stannis. It could all work out with Stannis pulling Rickon out of the air and rallying some support with that, but I doubt any Northerner will send their best men to battle for him when they have a STARK in Winterfell. Just chiming in in an attempt to reconnect with book Stannis--the real Stannis who irritates me and makes me want him to win something--anything! . .

[sifth]

Ok ok. You are right. Stanis is gonna win the Battle in the books. He is Azor Ahai. He is gonna sit on the throne at the end. The Show just changed it bebause they are evil. There is actually no sense talking to some people here .

While not evil, I certainly wouldn't call them wise. Case and point, Barristan the Bold was killed off by peasant fighters in open combat. The show never even bothered giving him armor too; while in the books Barristan is hardly ever out of his armor after he reveals himself to Dany.

[WhatIsDeadMayNeverLive]

The Boltons serve little continuing purpose in the books. Their extirpation and elimination from Winterfell would logically follow from what is occurring. The Wildling plot arc makes more sense if that happens.

This. The Boltons serve no further purpose, they are just "the bad guys to rebel against". I know GRRM loves his twists but the Boltons winning would be bad storytelling.

[JonisHenryTudor]

No, I'm talking about the show only. In the show it is mentioned he marches to Winterfell with 6000 men, which is more than the Boltons have (Littlefinger mentions it to Sansa). He loses half of them after burning Shireen and I accounted some more leaving during the march on foot, which I put him as having around 2500 men when he gets to Winterfell.

The Bolton cavalry rides out to meet them, the size of the cavalry looks MASSIVE in comparison to Stannis' army. Where exactly did the Boltons get this massive FULL cavalry army?? From thin air?

That is terrible writing because the writers include all these logistics and just throw around numbers. When you include numbers and in the end they do NOT match up, then it IS terrible writing!

It might be explained when the next season starts, but as it was shown, it was very confusing and incorrect information handed out.

This is the book side of the forum so it makes sense to lean on the book unless trying to see parallels, but in order not to be rude the massive cavalry on the show was produced by hitting buttons on a machine to make the army look vast. So yes, thin air.

[sifth]

This. The Boltons serve no further purpose, they are just "the bad guys to rebel against". I know GRRM loves his twists but the Boltons winning would be bad storytelling.

why are they even still alive on the show.

I mean does the tv show still need these guys, especially when they have Euron coming up next season.

[JonisHenryTudor]

300 men killed and almost won thousands warriors from the Persian Empire?why cant Stannis win?

If war were arithmetic, the mathematicians would rule the world....

Well for one thing the Battle of Thermopylae was not in an open field. The Spartans positioned themselves perfectly to avoid being surrounded. Stannis marched into the open without having trenches dug, spear walls set up, etc.

Ajax....umm well you may want to pay close attention to what happened at Agincourt. The French cavalry and army outnumbered the English, and they still were obliterated. A combination of sludge, rain, longbowmen, and spear walls helped divert the French mounted knights.

[zalim]

i like stannis alot but i dont think he is going to survive this battle