From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[bgona]

Hi bgona! Your post about the bear and the maiden fair was really intresting. It was funny to picture LF as being the goat from the story and about how Sansa is indeed thinking a bit naughtily about Loras while a song of a maiden is being played out loud :laugh: … though I’m sure she wasn’t one for long after the song ended. The fair=court observation was also accurate I think.. just one quick question since you mentioned Ned’s tourney and loras. Can Sansa still be the queen of love & beauty from that tourney though loras only gave her a red rose? That was the only thing that resembled “courtly love” in that occasion, so…?

I laugh a lot also with Sansa. She deserves to have that thaughts. LOL

Anyway I don´t believe that the act of Loras was never a courtly love, cause I have explained before all Tyrell´s acts are intentional and meditated (less when Loras kills many of his Rainbow Brothers in an act of madness due to the death of his love).

What I really see as an act of courtly love (and also a meaning of change) is the green color. Sansa wears a green outfit at the first day of the Hand´s Tourney, during the whole day. Even when Sandor was telling her how he got his burns and she touched him as an act of supporting. The next day Sandor wears a green cloak. She didn´t give him any favor, he took it from the dress color that she was wearing. This can mean also the beginning of the change of Sandor (normally green is always present in Sandor important acts).

But them ending up together and Sandor having a good heart (which I agree with you he has) instantly made me think about this new interview to George over at WiC where he talks about San/San. We know he’s never really talked that much about this relationship unfortunately, (nor is this interview the exception) but he does say that he is surprised how much fans of his work, particularly women, find themselves so interested in the villains like Jaime, Sandor and Theon, due to them having done some terrible things and other stuff. But this clashes with our belief that Sandor has a gentle heart. So is George just playing coy and will never pretend he can see the Sandor romantic appeal till the very end when he either gets the girl or dies for her? Is he playing with us? Or is he just being honest?

He also mentions Sandor and Sansa’s relationship saying, “And I do know that there are all these people out there who call themselves the San/San fans and want to see Sansa and Sandor get together at the end. The female interviewer says she can understand why Sandor is “appealing” buy the male interviewer sort of gave me the impression that since the show sort of toned down things between these 2, it’s clear they aren’t meant to be together.

I just don’t know what to make of it. Help?? :worried: :unsure:

It’s around 10:00 here:

http://asoiaf.wester...-v/page__st__60

Here is 3:15 a.m so I must go to sleep, but I will try to answer before.

My ideas (they are guess and can be wrong or right): just the three that he has mentioned are in a redemption arc. Theon we have see him recovering his own personality after being Reek. Sandor staying at the QI while his helm is traveling and doing the most terrible things. Jaime is the most difficult for me to know how, but I believe that he search for the Honour that is so precious for him will be reach at the end, maybe thru Brienne (the most honorable knight at Westeros, IOO).

If GRRM wanted villains that have great support, he could have mentioned: Petyr, Roose Bolton and even Tywin.

[Tagganaro]

Well, in Ned/Cat defense of their "education" of Sansa, I'd say it would be borderline impossible for them to prepare her for Joffrey haha. "Oh, Sansa, btw, you'll meet a handsome, charming prince who will turn out to be a psychopathic sadistic ahole who tortures you regularly".

I think her lack of education speaks more to the general patriarchal society in place in Westeros than any type of specific failing of Ned and Cat. The women are "supposed" to be like Sansa according to Westerosi norms. They should care about songs and jousts and whatever, leave the ruling to the males, and make babies when they were so called on. I'd imagine most women in Westeros are raised in a similar type of naive fashion and then left to fend for themselves.

And again, most of them don't have to deal with a psycopathic sadist right off the bat. For Cat, the extent of her disappointment as a young woman was going from the handsome Brandon to the more homely Ned, who turned out of course to be an extremely kind and loving husband. Most women don't go straight from charming prince to psycopath.

[Grail King]

Well, in Ned/Cat defense of their "education" of Sansa, I'd say it would be borderline impossible for them to prepare her for Joffrey haha. "Oh, Sansa, btw, you'll meet a handsome, charming prince who will turn out to be a psychopathic sadistic ahole who tortures you regularly".

I think her lack of education speaks more to the general patriarchal society in place in Westeros than any type of specific failing of Ned and Cat. The women are "supposed" to be like Sansa according to Westerosi norms. They should care about songs and jousts and whatever, leave the ruling to the males, and make babies when they were so called on. I'd imagine most women in Westeros are raised in a similar type of naive fashion and then left to fend for themselves.

And again, most of them don't have to deal with a psycopathic sadist right off the bat. For Cat, the extent of her disappointment as a young woman was going from the handsome Brandon to the more homely Ned, who turned out of course to be an extremely kind and loving husband. Most women don't go straight from charming prince to psycopath.

This is all true, but once Ned and Cat agreed to the betrothal shouldn't Cat at least have had Maester Lewyn teach her some history of politics the good bad and ugly.

Sansa really got short changed here, esp. since her mom is or was familiar with southern politics.

[bloodymime]

This is all true, but once Ned and Cat agreed to the betrothal shouldn't Cat at least have had Maester Lewyn teach her some history of politics the good bad and ugly.

Sansa really got short changed here, esp. since her mom is or was familiar with southern politics.

There's a pov of Cat I can't find for the life of me where she thinks of how it's her duty to take care of her men while it's their duty to protect her. I think it sums up a lot of it well of what Cat expected ladies to be like.

[Caro99]

Bgona, gods i had never thought Sandor may have worn a green mantle as a token for sansa since the night before she’d been wearing a green dress!! But I like that notion cause it allows us a very romantic side of sandor, who after all, is still plagued or intrigued subconsciously with the notion of chivalry he had as a kid. (like with his tearing off the white cloak and later saying “I stood there in my white cloak…” in his “death” speech.

And yes, you’re right. there are obviously other villains around besides sandor or Jaime or Tyrion… Gregor and the others you said are the real deal. So I do wonder if he didn’t mention those on purpose to mislead…?

Grail King

once Ned and Cat agreed to the betrothal shouldn't Cat at least have had Maester Lewyn teach her some history of politics the good bad and ugly.

You’re right, and no matter how much I love Ned or like Robert at times, Ned also should have at least taken some time to find out what Joff was like after he was going to end up marrying his daughter. Sure, he has no idea how cruel Joffrey is, but besides having Ned thinking some negative thoughts about the young prince, there’s the whole issue where he didn’t at least at the beginning of his stay in KL take the time to talk to Sansa and explain to her that they had come to a dangerous place the way he did with arya. Even in that conversation arya, a child, asks Ned how he could allow sansa marry someone like joff. I’m not saying that he ought to have gone around the red keep asking servants what they knew about joffrey (killing tommen’s fawn and ripping those kittens from their mother’s womb) but when Robert on the second morning of the tourney is telling Ned how he wished he could give up being king, he says that what holds him back is the thought of cersei whispering things to joff, he even asks “How could i have made a son like that, ned?”

Either ned shouldn’t have dismissed this with a “he’s only a boy”... or maybe robert could have told ned some of joff’s odd tendencies...

[Tagganaro]

This is all true, but once Ned and Cat agreed to the betrothal shouldn't Cat at least have had Maester Lewyn teach her some history of politics the good bad and ugly.

Sansa really got short changed here, esp. since her mom is or was familiar with southern politics.

There's a pov of Cat I can't find for the life of me where she thinks of how it's her duty to take care of her men while it's their duty to protect her. I think it sums up a lot of it well of what Cat expected ladies to be like.

I think Bloodymime sums it up well here. Cat, in her own way, is very much a product of that society, unlike pretty much every other female POV we have including Sansa (well, post-ACOK Sansa anyway). Cat was never really allowed to engage in politics it seems to me. She didn't have much to do with whatever Ned was doing and I would have to guess that noted woman-hater Hoster Tully would be no different on that front. Cat has a very traditional understanding of women's roles in Westerosi society, I think it's safe to assume she never saw Sansa having the need to get involved in politics.

And again, who the heck foresees what's in store for Sansa with Joffrey the charming psychopath haha? I think even his own mother is shocked at his ineptitude and insanity, and certainly Tywin his grandfather and Tyrion his uncle seem to be in the same boat. Similarly, Sansa is still very young at the start of the books and when she's sent off to KL I don't think anyone has any idea that Westeros is on the brink of civil war and that that war would claim Ned's life and force Sansa into the predicament she's in in ACOK. But really, how the heck could anyone even go about beginning to prepare an 11 year old Sansa for what's in store for her?

[Caro99]

And again, who the heck foresees what's in store for Sansa with Joffrey the charming psychopath haha? I think even his own mother is shocked at his ineptitude and insanity, and certainly Tywin his grandfather and Tyrion his uncle seem to be in the same boat. Similarly, Sansa is still very young at the start of the books and when she's sent off to KL I don't think anyone has any idea that Westeros is on the brink of civil war and that that war would claim Ned's life and force Sansa into the predicament she's in in ACOK. But really, how the heck could anyone even go about beginning to prepare an 11 year old Sansa for what's in store for her?

i think cersei was very surprised at how joff turned out to be even though she was never that blind as to what he did as a little boy (however good she is at deceiving herself). nobody could expect him to turn out to be the way he did, but maybe in his younger years the uncommon characteristics in him where just easier to ignore. i think robb sort of perceived them. he just never cared to pay joff too much attention to do anything more than that.

you're right that no one could know there would be war between all the great houses of westeros. the only war i think they thought could happen was the one with danny or viserys trying to claim back the throne with dothraki.

of course no one could prepare sansa for what she lived through, but maybe at least ned or even the septa who was the one with her at KL could have tried to prepare her better for what they thought would happen to her: marrying joff... but ned doesn't like joff and already knows he is a little "mean" because of the Lady incident, so he could have tried to learn more about the boy. or robert could have opened up to ned with his concernes for joff..? but since they both had some pretty important things to worry about back in AGoT, then at least i will hope that some investigation would've happened had they been allowed to live more :dunno:

[Newstar]

I always thought it was odd that Cat and Ned, both practical, traditional sorts, allowed their daughter to grow up with the sorts of notions she did. Ned's indulgence of Arya's rebellious streak makes sense given her resemblance to Lyanna, but you'd think Cat would be doing her best to help Sansa towards a more realistic worldview. Cat doesn't seem the type to allow her daughter to grow up with the sorts of ridiculous notions Sansa had about how the world worked. On the other hand, Starks are stubborn, so maybe Sansa wouldn't take easily or well to anyone trying to disabuse her of her view of the world.

With that said, I don't think that Sansa's education was particularly deficient for a Willas Tyrell type situation, where she's happily ensconced in some or other castle during peacetime, in a traditional sort of marriage relationship and out of the way of the all the dangerous political infighting in King's Landing. It's true that her education was not suited for a future queen, but I think it's unlikely that her parents ever contemplated that she'd be in a position to be betrothed to the crown prince. Given how little time elapsed between the betrothal and Sansa's departure for King's Landing, there wasn't much time to give Sansa a crash course in politics, either.

As for Joffrey being a nightmare, I think everyone, even his own family, was surprised at just how malevolent he turned out to be.

[bloodymime]

i think cersei was very surprised at how joff turned out to be even though she was never that blind as to what he did as a little boy (however good she is at deceiving herself). nobody could expect him to turn out to be the way he did, but maybe in his younger years the uncommon characteristics in him where just easier to ignore.

He cut open a cat to get her kittens and Cersei thinks of it as mischief and that's certainly not a common thing considering Robert freaked out and knocked his block off. All the things that made Joffrey a monster were the things Cersei admired.

[Caro99]

He cut open a cat to get her kittens and Cersei thinks of it as mischief and that's certainly not a common thing considering Robert freaked out and knocked his block off. All the things that made Joffrey a monster were the things Cersei admired.

fair enough :)

[Raksha the Demon]

I don't think you can necessarily decide Sansa's parents wrapped her in swaddling cloth with no idea of outside world. How far should they go in destroying their daughter's dreams and fancies? Should they pull a Tarly on her? She's seen plenty of northern men like Whoresbane and Arnolf Karstark to know the world isn't full of shining knights. She's an eleven year old chld. She's going to hear what she wants to hear and see what she wants to see.

Even after Cersei has Lady killed she stays infatuated with Joffrey, the Lannisters and all the other shiny things. It takes his having Ned executed for her to see him as he really is. We all have our delusions. We especially had them at that age and nobody was going to tell us different.

Even after Bran is crippled he wants to be a big and shining knight just like in all the stories. Noboy hounds him for it despite all the horrible examples of knights we see in the world.

I wouldn't expect Ned and Cat, who love their children, to suddenly send 10-or-11-year-old Sansa out into the wilderness for survival training, or shout unwelcome truths at her. And Sansa seems to have a natural bent towards believing good things about the world.

I was very like Sansa as a child and young girl, with the difference of hating sewing and 'women's' chores. But there was a huge difference. At eleven years of age, my parents had no expectation of marrying me off at 16 or 17 to a feudal baron with a good-sized to huge estate and vassals; vassals I would have to host and entertain in a politically sensible way, not to mention harmoniously manage the great house/keep. The Stark tradition promotes the lord's treating his vassals and his staff and his smallfolk with dignity; and Catelyn herself does not seem one to sit back and eat bonbons without knowing her servants' names or needs.

There should have been a medium between letting the child Sansa turn out, at 11, just a few years away from expected marriage; so woefully ignorant of reality, sheltered and dreaming of knights and ladies, and exposing her brutally to some unwelcome truths. I still don't understand why she was allowed to think of the stables as a dirty place of apparent little concern to her, as the future Lady of a great house, she should have been taught that grooms and farriers and stableboys are essential to the health of the horses that she and her lord and family would depend on for transport, and to at least acknowledge the worth of both the horses and the people who care for them. Starting when Sansa was about eight or nine, Catelyn should have realized that the child's natural desire was to daydream and read old romance tales; and allow her to continue doing so while gradually tutoring her to understand that the world in which Sansa was going to live was not the world of Florian and Jonquil, and how to cope with that real world, at least start to prepare the kid.

Perhaps Catelyn resented having responsibility thrust upon her at a young age when she was motherless and her father's heir before Edmure arrived; and her indulgence of Sansa's dreamy worldview was the fulfillment of her own wishes for a more carefree childhood? It's hard to tell; but Sansa's practical education should have been begun by her parents, not Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish. Thankfully, Sansa's own formidable powers of observation have helped her try to bridge that education gap. It's still a shame that she didn't have a parent who guided her into the real world without disillusioning her about her ideals; because she is facing that conflict now and in my opinion not very well. (well, her only guide is Littlefinger, so it's no wonder that Sansa seems to be growing more cynical and laissez-faire about certain core principles).

[1234567]

@ Bgona

Lovely analysis of the Bear and the Maiden fair, however (unfortunately) I think it could also apply to Tyrion or LF: Especially as Tyrion, Jorah and Penny have the Bear and the Maiden Fair routine in ADWD. :(

The bear initially seems reluctant to go to the fair, but then when he smells the Honey (her claim) he decides to seize her. The Maid in the song protests against this as Sansa protested against the marriage. The bit about lifting her high into the air is interesting (if Tyrion gets control of a Dragon he could indeed lift her up in the air). However the Maid didn't want to Dance with the Bear, whereas Tyrion refused Sansa's offer to dance at the wedding.

However LF took her to the Eyrie, which again corresponds to being lifted high into the air. LF is also not a Knight, which again links to the song and Sansa thinking Ser Dontos was the Knight would was going to save her, only to find it was LF. Edit: Also the Maid being reluctant fits in with how Sansa doesn't want LF's kisses and attentions. The idea that the Bear forces his attentions on the Maid, who initially is resistant but then adores those attentions, seems very creepy as it echoes Dany and Drogo's relationship.

Another reading that could possibly pertain to Sandor is that if the Honey represents her claim to Winterfell, then by licking the Honey (removing it essentially), it may foreshadow her staying Alyane Stone and giving up her claim entirely, which would tie in with Sansa's recent feelings about her claim.

The moving here to there bit at the end is interesting, as it would perhaps suggest some sort of continuous travel in Sansa's life if the song pertains to her.

NB: Septa Mordane should go down in History as the worst Septa ever. But more on this later.

[bloodymime]

I wouldn't expect Ned and Cat, who love their children, to suddenly send 10-or-11-year-old Sansa out into the wilderness for survival training, or shout unwelcome truths at her. And Sansa seems to have a natural bent towards believing good things about the world.

I was very like Sansa as a child and young girl, with the difference of hating sewing and 'women's' chores. But there was a huge difference. At eleven years of age, my parents had no expectation of marrying me off at 16 or 17 to a feudal baron with a good-sized to huge estate and vassals; vassals I would have to host and entertain in a politically sensible way, not to mention harmoniously manage the great house/keep. The Stark tradition promotes the lord's treating his vassals and his staff and his smallfolk with dignity; and Catelyn herself does not seem one to sit back and eat bonbons without knowing her servants' names or needs.

There should have been a medium between letting the child Sansa turn out, at 11, just a few years away from expected marriage; so woefully ignorant of reality, sheltered and dreaming of knights and ladies, and exposing her brutally to some unwelcome truths. I still don't understand why she was allowed to think of the stables as a dirty place of apparent little concern to her, as the future Lady of a great house, she should have been taught that grooms and farriers and stableboys are essential to the health of the horses that she and her lord and family would depend on for transport, and to at least acknowledge the worth of both the horses and the people who care for them. Starting when Sansa was about eight or nine, Catelyn should have realized that the child's natural desire was to daydream and read old romance tales; and allow her to continue doing so while gradually tutoring her to understand that the world in which Sansa was going to live was not the world of Florian and Jonquil, and how to cope with that real world, at least start to prepare the kid.

Perhaps Catelyn resented having responsibility thrust upon her at a young age when she was motherless and her father's heir before Edmure arrived; and her indulgence of Sansa's dreamy worldview was the fulfillment of her own wishes for a more carefree childhood? It's hard to tell; but Sansa's practical education should have been begun by her parents, not Sandor Clegane and Petyr Baelish. Thankfully, Sansa's own formidable powers of observation have helped her try to bridge that education gap. It's still a shame that she didn't have a parent who guided her into the real world without disillusioning her about her ideals; because she is facing that conflict now and in my opinion not very well. (well, her only guide is Littlefinger, so it's no wonder that Sansa seems to be growing more cynical and laissez-faire about certain core principles).

I think there's a level of privilege we're overlooking here even in a practical family like the Starks. They had servants for brushing their hair. There's an SSM actually talking about this I'll have to try to find. The gist is families like the Starks are as far above the other nobles as those nobles are above the smallfolk. You notice even when Ned brought in men to sit at his table, it's not the stableboy up there, it's the master of horses. I think we're expecting a lot of practicality in Sansa that simply wouldn't be there even as a Stark.

[Kittykatknits]

That's going to be Bran's duty when he gets older. Sansa is learning her duties as a lady as well. The sewing and managing a household.

I don't expect Sansa to attend executions but the scene shows that Sansa's upbringing is not entirely because Ned and Cat were trying to shield their children from the harder side of life.

we haven´t even met Willas yet) but we know that Sandor has a good heart. This is shown in his actions with Arya

This could mean that they will meet again and they will have another scene together before Sansa agrees to stay with Sandor.

This song can refer to them, and if it does, I will love to read that scene!!!

I´m also open to any suggestion.

Thanks again bgona for posting your Bear and the maiden fair analysis :) I really enjoyed it. In that particular scene my reading of it was related to her final acceptance of Willas Tyrell, but I've always seen the parallels between the Bear and Sandor and I think you do a really nice job on the symbolism (the Tyrells and foreshadowing their treachery) and how it could apply to those other men in Sansa's life (Petyr/satyr/goat).

There was a thread about this song here on Westeros very recently. The OP was wondering who the song was about. A few felt it was about Dany/Jorah because of the bear reference and Mormont's having the bear as their family sigil. However, a pretty common opinion is that it was about Sandor and Sansa. The extent of analysis was not nearly as deep as your post bgona but several pointed out allusions between the song and the couple.

But them ending up together and Sandor having a good heart (which I agree with you he has) instantly made me think about this new interview to George over at WiC where he talks about San/San. We know he’s never really talked that much about this relationship unfortunately, (nor is this interview the exception) but he does say that he is surprised how much fans of his work, particularly women, find themselves so interested in the villains like Jaime, Sandor and Theon, due to them having done some terrible things and other stuff. But this clashes with our belief that Sandor has a gentle heart. So is George just playing coy and will never pretend he can see the Sandor romantic appeal till the very end when he either gets the girl or dies for her? Is he playing with us? Or is he just being honest?

He also mentions Sandor and Sansa’s relationship saying, “And I do know that there are all these people out there who call themselves the San/San fans and want to see Sansa and Sandor get together at the end. The female interviewer says she can understand why Sandor is “appealing” buy the male interviewer sort of gave me the impression that since the show sort of toned down things between these 2, it’s clear they aren’t meant to be together.

I just don’t know what to make of it. Help?? :worried: :unsure:

It’s around 10:00 here:

http://asoiaf.wester...-v/page__st__60

Here is 3:15 a.m so I must go to sleep, but I will try to answer before.

My ideas (they are guess and can be wrong or right): just the three that he has mentioned are in a redemption arc. Theon we have see him recovering his own personality after being Reek. Sandor staying at the QI while his helm is traveling and doing the most terrible things. Jaime is the most difficult for me to know how, but I believe that he search for the Honour that is so precious for him will be reach at the end, maybe thru Brienne (the most honorable knight at Westeros, IOO).

If GRRM wanted villains that have great support, he could have mentioned: Petyr, Roose Bolton and even Tywin.

I watched that video clip a few times and even had my poor husband watch it to get a more objective opinion. The male interview, don't know his name, actually gave me the impression that the show played up the relationship between the two of them. The exact phrase he used was "stoking the fires" and since he was obviously not a SanSan fan, I would say this is a good thing.

He's brought up the three of them in the past when talking about how he is surprised at how popular some of the characters are so that doesn't surprise me at all. At one point, Martin said that he deliberately planted their interactions the way that he did which tells me that the romantic undertones that we all have noticed is very real. I think he actually acknowledged it without actually acknowledging it, if that makes sense. Before Martin talked about SanSan, he was talking about fan intensity which surprised him, I think that is the more important takeaway from what he was talking about. He is not surprised that people noticed the romantic subtext as he put that there. He is just surprised that as many people have reacted as strongly as they did, especially all the women. So, I wouldn't worry. I'd say the interview is a good thing.

Also, my husband, who agrees with me on Sansan but has none of the emotional investment that I do, had pretty much the same thoughts and is still convinced they will meet again.

[SkyBry]

^{Can someone recall the name of the guy Sansa is berothed to by Baelish... And what was his story?}

^{Why was his throneclaim good? and together even better?}

^{it's been a while since i read that part!}

^{*valar Morghulis*}

[Valkyrja]

^{Can someone recall the name of the guy Sansa is berothed to by Baelish... And what was his story?}

^{Why was his throneclaim good? and together even better?}

^{it's been a while since i read that part!}

^{*valar Morghulis*}

You mean Harrold Hardyng, aka Harry the Heir?

This wiki entry should help you out. :)

http://awoiaf.wester...Harrold_Hardyng

[Elba the Intoner]

Hi SkyBry. Welcome. The name of the man Baelish betrothes to Sansa is Harry the Heir, or Harold Hardyng. He is the Heir to the Vale of Arryn should anything happen to Sweetrobin, because Harry is the descendant of Jon Arryn's sister. He is a ward of Lady Anya Waynewood. Baelish is trying to entice Sansa into the marriage with Harry as that would give them ties to the Vale through Harry, and Winterfell and the North as well as the Riverlands through Sansa.

[SkyBry]

You mean Harrold Hardyng, aka Harry the Heir?

This wiki entry should help you out. :)

http://awoiaf.wester...Harrold_Hardyng

Hi SkyBry. Welcome. The name of the man Baelish betrothes to Sansa is Harry the Heir, or Harold Hardyng. He is the Heir to the Vale of Arryn should anything happen to Sweetrobin, because Harry is the descendant of Jon Arryn's sister. He is a ward of Lady Anya Waynewood. Baelish is trying to entice Sansa into the marriage with Harry as that would give them ties to the Vale through Harry, and Winterfell and the North as well as the Riverlands through Sansa.

Yes it came back ! you thank!

I am kinda hoping she'll be a new and better version of Cersei, without the madness that is!

[voodooqueen126]

This might be a generational gap issue. I don't know the ages of anyone here. I'm 37,in the us, and like I said I see little difference in the Septa and the teachers I had at that age. Martin being even older would likely have the same experience. Even up to Sansa's age and beyond education was little more than memorization of facts and figures. There was no teaching you to think for yourself and believe me that idea was discouraged not encouraged.

I don't think much medieval education encouraged critical thinking anyway. In fact at a pre-high school level (under the age of 13)education shouldn't really have to encourage critical thinking: at that stage, children need to rote learn grammar (which is actually learning logic, especially if that language is latin), to communicate clearly, and maths.

Once you have these building blocks, then later critical thinking becomes much easier.

Not to mention that knowing latin in a medieval context would be the only way you would be able tor read a book that wasn't Romance of the Rose/it's local equivalent, but would context you to ideas both contemporary (Thomas Aquinas and Roger Bacon) and past (Cicero etc)

Indeed the reason the modern education system is so utterly woeful, is that it doesn't focus on these building blocks (for instance I don't know formal English grammar) making subsequent learning rather difficult.

My problem with Septa Mordane is that she didn't seem to be providing much in the way of building blocks, but merely teaching her charges the Medieval equivalent of political correctness.

Who knows, perhaps Septa Mordane is vaguely based off some cranky nun that GRRM knew as a child, since h my Aunt's experience with teaching sisters, was that they were utterly awful. My aunt is a older than GRRM.

Of course the whole Septa thing doesn't seem all that realistic-sure nuns were occassionally sent to noble ladies as companions (atleast I think Teresa of Avila complains about it) but they were, in theory, supposed to be cloistered. Actively sending out young women (since presumably Septa Mordane was quite young when she became a Septa) to teach noble girls in noble households, seems to be asking for scandal and disaster.

As for Septa Mordane's advice holding up the patriarchy. Well that's not entirely surprising: the reason so many women ended up in convents seemed to be that:

a) younger sons ended up in monastic orders and the priesthood, so that families could conserve inheritance for the eldest son

b] leading to a shortage of eligible aristocratic men (interestingly the Anglican Church began establishing convents at the same time that the british empire was expanding...)

c] Spain and it's colonies seemed to have had semi-equal inheritance laws, thus it was especially imperative that ones sister join a convent, so that you didn't have to share inheritance (thats why the Dornish situation is utterly ridiculous to me: allowing the first born child to inherit even if female wouldn't create female leadership, it would create men who conspire to place their sisters in cloisters).

[bloodymime]

I don't expect Sansa to attend executions but the scene shows that Sansa's upbrining is not entirely because Ned and Cat were trying to shield their children from the harder side of life.

Did I say they were actively trying to shield their children from reality? I'll have to look but if I did I wrote wrong since I don't feel that way or I've changed my mind. I think it's more a matter of privilege that perhaps we're not expecting to see in a family like the Starks and yet outside of the exception of Arya we are for the most part shown that they do have a clear and wide separation between their own smallfolk and themselves. We don't ever hear an actual stableboy's name aside from the exceptional Hodor even from Arya for that matter. Even Ned's idea of bonding with the men is for the heads of the different duties eat at his table.The Starks are the royalty of the North and that's how they lived.