Dorothy Dunnett - Amazing Historical Fiction

[wolverine]

So...

Thanks to the generousity of the gracious Chataya, I have 2 copies of "King Hereafter". I passed one along to Tommy Bob, because, hey, MacBeth, and, accurate "Dark Ages" (oh, how Dr Brush would look at me with disappointment for furthering the myth they really were "dark").

As a result, don't be surprised if you see a guy at a NASCAR race reading Dunnet between events....

Even with forewarning, there is no way that could not surprise me.

[Maid Sansa]

I just finished the Niccoló series, ten years after finishing Lymond for the first time. :) All in all, I liked the scope and theme better than in Lymond - trade and politics, that's what I can relate to much better than the slightly ridiculous martial obsession of Francis Crawford of Lymond.

Now what I'd really love to know is...

where in the world does the idea that Nicholas was the father of the first Francis Crawford come from? If I am remembering the timeline correctly, he and Kathi were barely even on the same continent when little Rankin was getting conceived! Not to mention that there isn't even the whisper of a hint that they ever considered having sex with each other.

Nicholas is a real bastard though. A nasty, duplicitous, overbearing, patronising bastard. First-row seats to the destruction of Burgundy were kind of neat, though, and the ending not bad at all (apart form the unsatisfying resolution of the Henry and Simon problem). Realistic, maybe, but unsatisfying.

[Maltaran]

Well, there is a widespread opinion that Robin is incapable due to his injury, so obviously he can't really be the father. Now, how many other close male friends does Kathi have? ;) It helps that Simon and Fat Father Jordan like to spread as many nasty rumours as they can.

[Nukelavee]

Nick is a prick, it's true, but, man, his plots are a lot of fun to watch from here.

Fat Father Jordon is such a horrible person, too.

Adorne's death made me sad

[Maid Sansa]

Well, there is a widespread opinion that Robin is incapable due to his injury, so obviously he can't really be the father. Now, how many other close male friends does Kathi have? ;) It helps that Simon and Fat Father Jordan like to spread as many nasty rumours as they can.

But it was only little Hob who was conceived after Nancy. Rankin was born just about the time Nicholas returned from Russia, IIRC. And I'd say that one particular scene between Kathi and Robin shows pretty explicitly that even afterwards, he was still capable enough. :)

Bah, so it was just Simon and Jordan being their usual charming selves. Phew. :) Otherwise the inbreeding within the Crawford family would have been something awful to behold - it would mean Sybilla Semple married and had kids with her half-uncle.

Nukelavee: me too. Totally.

[Nukelavee]

On that topic -Adorne was such a great character, in some ways, I consider him the best of all the characters. Not so much a favourite (tho he is), but because he quietly provided a character who wasn't driven by hate, who didn't pick and choose when to live up to his image or code.

Having said that......I've likely forgotten some plot point where he does something totally nasty just because he could.

[Nukelavee]

Would he have remained a dyer, tho? He had the support of Marion, and, hey, honestly, he didn't have to enter the game, he could have been content to be a moderately successful merchant. He had the skills.

He is all those things, when he needs to be. Is he fair? I dunno, but he does maintain a balance, which makes him scary, because his limits are all self imposed.

But, compared to, say Tyrion, he is a far far better person, because he lacks the delusions about himself (or rather, I think he feels far more guilt over things than he deserves).

[MinorityReport]

This series sounds interesting. I did a little research and it looks like Dorothy Dunnett was a big Star Trek the Next Generation fan, so big that she wrote some fan fiction with her characters in the Star Trek universe. She posted it on her website, and you can read it here:

http://www.dorothydu...uk/dufanfic.htm

People who have already read the series will probably enjoy it more than those who haven't.

EDIT: Oops! Looks likeit wasn't Dorothy who wrote it, but the person who runs the site. Oh well, it's still interesting...

[Maid Sansa]

Maid Sansa - why do you say "Nicholas is a real bastard though. A nasty, duplicitous, overbearing, patronising bastard...." Sure, he's duplicitous - he has to be. People are duplicitous to him, and if he were straightforward, he'd begin and end as a dyer's apprentice, and DD wouldn't have had a story to tell. I don't see how he's "nasty" - he and Geilis have a game...one that she entered into with eyes open. Is he mean to her? She was mean to him.

The Scotland thing is exactly what I mean. Also, the person-whose-name-we-shall-not-spoil thing.

I don't care that he didn't do physical harm. I don't care if they "brought it on themselves" or not. He deliberately and fully aware what it would to to every person in Scotland who ever handled a coin (which, admittedly, wasn't everyone in those times) set out to wreck its economy. For a personal vendetta, innocent people suffered. That's why I consider him nasty. That, and hanging around with Pauel "Major Asshole" Benecke.

The other thing, well... if he hadn't been so convinced of his own superiority and others' inferiority, he'd have shared his knowledge much, much earlier, and probably to a better effect. You do not "protect" grown-up people, competent people, by keeping secrets of this magnitude from them. That's why he's overbearing and patronising.

I won't deny he's an interesting asshole, though. I don't mind him being duplicitous towards his enemies (or adversaries). Even the game with Gelis... the woman had sibling issues and a totally wrong idea of him. They both needed to grow up a bit, and if the game did that, well, good for them.

Incidentally, what about Bonne?

She married a Mr. Unremarkable Name and moved to Zakynthos. I recall Kiaya Khatun sending Philippa to Zakynthos to hunt for Lymond's child, but that merchant's name was Marino Donati... Could there possibly be a connection?

[Joanna vander Poele]

Yes!! Resurrecting this thread and breaking out my lurking to confess my absolute adoration and love of Mme Dunnett. It's so hard to find discussions on the books online... much less speculation on how Nicholas fathered you-know-who! I love the Niccolo books a little too much for comfort... more than ASOIAF by a long margin, hah! whereas Lymond is such a smug fuck that I gave up Game of Kings a while ago.

Something something about the end of Lie With Lions...

Can someone go into specifics about how exactly Nicholas wrecked Scotland? I remember that he was supposed to be very bad, bad, bad, but it all seemed rather vague to me. And I can't help but feel Gelis' disgust and shock toward Nicholas at the end of the book seem kind of hmmm... hypocritical and self-righteous. She seemed so obsessed and hell-bent on their mutually destructive game that I found it impossible to believe she genuinely cared for anyone but herself, and especially for the poor citizens of Scotland.

Also, in retrospect... Gelis being an agent of the Vatachino was a cool reveal... but come on, Egidia/Egidius?? Probably the only time I went WTF at the lameness involved in hiding such information from the reader when no one in-universe should have fallen for that. Just a dorky move.

Still not sure what to feel about Nicholas' divining. I mean, it's Dunnett, so it works out well... I just don't know how to take such a supernatural element in an otherwise "ordinary" setting... Dr Andreas' astrology aside.

Julius is the son of Elizabeth Semple, Jordan's sister, right? My eyes started to blur together after a while... there was a lot of information given about Scotland in Gemini, it got pretty overwhelming without knowing the historical context. Whoa.

Another voice for Anselm Adorne... truly the coolest. Every scene with him and

little Efemie was too precious. So cute. Much tears for Phemie Dunbar :crying:

Will probably try Game of Kings again. Bah! Lymond is such a turd.

[Ran]

Joanna,

To Lie with Lions:

Nicholas encouraged exorbitant, ruinous spending, all on credit.... credit which would evaporate when he's prepared to bring the house of cards down as his revenge for the rejection of his mother and himself, and as a way of proving that he could bring down a kingdom.

I think the scale of it was what shocked her. And it is pretty shocking -- hundreds of thousands dragged down because of one Flemish merchant's need to prove himself. She thought their issues were personal, extending only as far as their immediate circle of associates and acquaintances, and Niccolo revealed himself to have a monstrous need that expanded the scope overwhelmingly.

When everything was explained, I have to admit I was quite as shocked as Gelis was!

[Nukelavee]

I agree with Ran - Gelis seemed to want to make a massive impact on, really, one person; Niccolo wanted to make a massive impact on the world.

Least favourite character - the toothless pirate with the loathsome hat. Occiba?

eta - spelling.

how did I get one from want?

[Joanna vander Poele]

I see, I see... that'll help on a future re-read. Still hard to believe

Gelis' reactions personally, but it was the catalyst that pulled the rug from under her feet and got her thinking seriously, so yeah. My poor, lunatic Nicol...

[Vafler]

Just bought game of kings from amazon because of all the high praise it got here.

[Maid Sansa]

I see, I see... that'll help on a future re-read. Still hard to believe

Gelis' reactions personally, but it was the catalyst that pulled the rug from under her feet and got her thinking seriously, so yeah. My poor, lunatic Nicol...

I am not that surprised myself. Gelis comes from a merchant family, and she's very knowledgeable about economy. Among other things, what Nicholas forced with his deliberate channeling of gold and silver into ridiculous ostentation on credit was devaluation (as we find out in Caprice & Rondo, I think). Have you ever seen a devaluation? I have. It was not nice to see my parents' paychecks and savings disappearing overnight. People would rush from work on paydays to buy Deutschmarks on the black market in order to have at least something at the end of the month.

This also means you practically can't import anything because your currency is worthless compared to others. Gelis knew that, and she also knew that Scotland was a very marginal economy at the best of times. Such a blow was likely to cripple them for a long time.

[Devaki Khanna]

So, true story: Even though I've been a fan of GRRM for a long time (25 years or so), ASOIAF was something I didn't pick up until, oh, 10 years ago. Mostly because I'd been burned by a lot of his stuff I found lackluster.

But, I picked it up one day, because I had a craving for some good characters and great plotting, and, well, I couldn't find any more Dunnet to read.

So, basically, everybody saying "I need something like GoT to fill my days...", I say Dunnet.

Take out the magic, take out all the Myrish swamps and fat pink masts, strip off teh fantasy overlay from GoT's inspirations..

The House of Niccolo, and Lymond are what you get. You get epic battles, duels, hatreds, loves...amazing backdrops, politics, wealth..

You ponder R+L=J....try guessing who the fuck is funding that little shit wee David.

Niccolo runs during the 1400's, and covers Europe from Iceland to Scotland, to Trebizond, Rhodes, Africa, and all points in between.

Lymond? Ask Chataya, or wait for me to finish the big box of Lymond she sent me.

So, seriously, anybody but me and Chat read these?

I've read both Niccolo and Lymond, in that order. And I read both the series while waiting for ADwD to come out.

Niccolo's character, in many ways, is hard to pin down. At first, we see him as this village idiot, who keeps getting into trouble and getting beaten up. But then, he comes up with an absolutely brilliant business scheme to make money for the woman who brought him up after his mother committed suicide--it appears her younger sister was married to his maternal grandfather. And then he goes from strength to strength, and the story gets more interesing and complicated. I remember sitting up at least two nights to finish reading parts four and five of this multi-volume work.

Lymond is wonderful too, in its own way, although I was at first very sceptical about the inclusion of so many Indian allusions/references in the books--I didn't think 16th century Europe was so clued in about Indian (Hindu/Buddhist/Jain) scripture. But then, this story, with its Scottish backdrop during Mary Queen of Scots' minority, is an engrossing read.

[Devaki Khanna]

I just finished the Niccoló series, ten years after finishing Lymond for the first time. :) All in all, I liked the scope and theme better than in Lymond - trade and politics, that's what I can relate to much better than the slightly ridiculous martial obsession of Francis Crawford of Lymond.

Now what I'd really love to know is...

where in the world does the idea that Nicholas was the father of the first Francis Crawford come from? If I am remembering the timeline correctly, he and Kathi were barely even on the same continent when little Rankin was getting conceived! Not to mention that there isn't even the whisper of a hint that they ever considered having sex with each other.

Nicholas is a real bastard though. A nasty, duplicitous, overbearing, patronising bastard. First-row seats to the destruction of Burgundy were kind of neat, though, and the ending not bad at all (apart form the unsatisfying resolution of the Henry and Simon problem). Realistic, maybe, but unsatisfying.

Niccolo is not the father of the first Francis Crawford--Crawford marries Niccolo's grand-daughter, Jordie's daughter, Sybelle Semple. That's the big secret in the Lymond series--Sybelle's relations with Francis and his son, by whom she has Richard.

[Gillio]

International Dorothy Dunnett Day coming up

http://dunnettcentral.org/news/international-dorothy-dunnett-day-2012

[Maid Sansa]

Niccolo is not the father of the first Francis Crawford--Crawford marries Niccolo's grand-daughter, Jordie's daughter, Sybelle Semple. That's the big secret in the Lymond series--Sybelle's relations with Francis and his son, by whom she has Richard.

Yes, I was absolutely certain this was so. However, I saw the idea I wrote in the spoilers mentioned on... huh, I wish I could remember. A long time ago on a fan site / forum far away, before I even started on the second Niccolo book. I guess it must have been just a lone opinion then. It got stuck in my head as if it was commonly accepted, and then I was a bit confused when I finished the series.

[Arbor Gold]

I bought The Game of Kings several years ago, I'm pretty sure based on the strength of Mexal's praise of Dunnett. I never actually read it, though. Just pulled it off my shelf and will give it a try.