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Nukelavee

Dorothy Dunnett - Amazing Historical Fiction

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Dunnet is the absolute best. I'm utterly convinced Martin had a senile old knight named Lymond in Storm Of Swords, but last time I reread it, he'd vanished or had a name change. I started with Niccolo and fell in love straight away with the writing - elegant and arch and cool and witty. I loved not knowing where it was really going until the plot really kicks in when Marian tells Felix about the marriage. Her skill with plot and character is staggering.

I'm convinced Game of Kings is best read as a romance novel that just happens to incorporate murder mysteries and swashbuckling action and political intrigue and dynastic drama. I think Dunnet was exploring the concept of the bastard in romantic fiction. Is he acting the bastard? He has to be! But he's so convincing! How big a bastard do you have to be to play a bastard so convincingly? Lymond is actually a very difficult character to relate to on first read through, and I, for one, was on the side of the more resentful supporting characters. Second read-through, he's much more sympathetic, and the resentful supporting characters are actually a bit callow and childish. With Niccolo, you get so used to him acting the bastard a bit when he needs to that it comes as a shock to discover that he may, in fact, be the biggest bastard of the whole series. There's a bit in Lions where he completely loses his temper and he's terrifying.

I assume everyone expressing love for Adorne knows he's a real historical figure and was, if anything, even more awesome in reality than he was in the books?

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What is really cool is that Dunnet is actually a good foundation for Stephanson's Baroque Cycle.

Imagine Niccolo going into business with Elizabeth?

Fat Father Jordon having to deal with Half-Cock Jack?

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Lord Lymond Lychester, yes. That said, I believe GRRM has said he hasn't read the Lymond series, and only read some of the Niccol├│ books, so the Lymond name is probably just one of those he pulled from the baby name books.

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I assume everyone expressing love for Adorne knows he's a real historical figure and was, if anything, even more awesome in reality than he was in the books?

Yep. :) The exact extent of his awesomenes, alas, remains hidden from me because his Wiki entry is in Dutch, but I smiled when I read that he actually really had a daughter named Efemie.

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Yeah... I really do want to know about the RL Anselm Adorne and Kathi Sersanders and everyone else! Information in English seems to be at a dearth though... and I still cannot believe how many kids Adorne and Margriet had :o

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Just finished the third Lymond novel. You-know-what just made my eyes burst into flame... What a toolbag.

I did read spoilers because I couldn't wait, so I know Khaireddin doesn't end up too happily, but if he has to spend his entire life as Gabriel's slave/concubine I am going to torch stuff. What a sick fuck. God, I hope Lymond destroys him :devil: Don't want another ending like Gemini where they don't really get their just desserts the way they should... kill, Crawford, kill! :fencing:

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Just finished the third Lymond novel. You-know-what just made my eyes burst into flame... What a toolbag.

I did read spoilers because I couldn't wait, so I know Khaireddin doesn't end up too happily, but if he has to spend his entire life as Gabriel's slave/concubine I am going to torch stuff. What a sick fuck. God, I hope Lymond destroys him :devil: Don't want another ending like Gemini where they don't really get their just desserts the way they should... kill, Crawford, kill! :fencing:

You are SO going to regret this last sentence of yours when you finish Pawn in Frankincense... :crying:

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Reading Queen's Play right now and it is very slow going. I wish I had a companion or guide for the un-translated passages and obscure metaphors. The mood she sets feels very authentic though. The first Lymond book started pretty slowly for me as well (EDIT: But finished spectacularly).

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Dunnet is the absolute best. I'm utterly convinced Martin had a senile old knight named Lymond in Storm Of Swords...

There are several characters named Lymond in ASoIaF. The scene where they are handing out awards and pardons for the Battle of the Blackwater, there are two knights named Lymond.

wolverine - just keep at it. The payoff is really in Book 3, which is just so much more accessible. The Dorothy Dunnett Companion would be of help to you, but I found that it was much better to read the Companion after reading the novels.

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This may be my next reading selection.

You have no idea how momentous of a decision this is on my part.

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Just finished the series. Wow... talk about a punch in the gut! Strangely enough, it was really odd to read about someone I didn't really care about. I love Nicholas, but Lymond is not really a character I could fall in love with... there's also this strain of sheer agony in Lymond that is mitigated in Niccolo by Gemini. Pawn in Frankensense and Part V of Checkmate are especially tough in their emotional vulnerability.

Poor Philippa! I was wondering how she and Lymond would come around, and that was one way... although I confess I got tricked and thought Lymond would genuinely die. Never sure how I feel about writing shenaginans like those...

Guzel was a very cool character, but I couldn't help but question how such a self-possessed and calm woman would survive in a court as turbulent as Ivan's... it doesn't matter how savvy you are if one crazy tsar or prince has had enough of you... sad to hear her end though.

So the Dame of Doubtance is Dr Andreas' daughter? Their names are Camille!

Poor baby Khaireddin! The save-my-son plot in Lymond and Niccolo is pretty similar, though there was only one of Jodi and it was definitely his son. I wonder if Lymond would have spent more time with the child if he had saved Khaireddin instead. I didn't expect to hear so little of Kuzum. And I thought Gabriel was going to be the bastard recurring villain a la Jordan and Simon, so really surprising to see him taken out by the mutes, but very satisfying.

I confess I'm still a little confused over the timeline of Kuzum's birth. He has to be older than Khaireddin...? Joleta had to have him before she was pregnant again in the Disorderly Knights?

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This may be my next reading selection.

You have no idea how momentous of a decision this is on my part.

I'm halfway through a re-read of the Niccolo Series, I got it on my KOBO. Its so long since my first read, I've forgotten such a lot.

Before Niccolo I re-read Lymond, and I thoroughly recommend it

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Just finished the series. Wow... talk about a punch in the gut! Strangely enough, it was really odd to read about someone I didn't really care about. I love Nicholas, but Lymond is not really a character I could fall in love with... there's also this strain of sheer agony in Lymond that is mitigated in Niccolo by Gemini. Pawn in Frankensense and Part V of Checkmate are especially tough in their emotional vulnerability.

Poor Philippa! I was wondering how she and Lymond would come around, and that was one way... although I confess I got tricked and thought Lymond would genuinely die. Never sure how I feel about writing shenaginans like those...

Guzel was a very cool character, but I couldn't help but question how such a self-possessed and calm woman would survive in a court as turbulent as Ivan's... it doesn't matter how savvy you are if one crazy tsar or prince has had enough of you... sad to hear her end though.

So the Dame of Doubtance is Dr Andreas' daughter? Their names are Camille!

Poor baby Khaireddin! The save-my-son plot in Lymond and Niccolo is pretty similar, though there was only one of Jodi and it was definitely his son. I wonder if Lymond would have spent more time with the child if he had saved Khaireddin instead. I didn't expect to hear so little of Kuzum. And I thought Gabriel was going to be the bastard recurring villain a la Jordan and Simon, so really surprising to see him taken out by the mutes, but very satisfying.

I confess I'm still a little confused over the timeline of Kuzum's birth. He has to be older than Khaireddin...? Joleta had to have him before she was pregnant again in the Disorderly Knights?

Finished the series in three days :) Goes fast after Book 3, doesn't it?

I'm a little confused over the timeline of the K's birthdates - however, it is supposed to be clear in the book that they are only months apart. I wonder, personally, if Guzel switched them while she was in the harem. After all, Joleta's baby was described as "not thriving". Khaireddin was the kid who didn't thrive. Oonaugh's (I might have mangled that spelling) baby was described as a happy baby.

The babies both had the same brand. Now, putting aside my hatred for the bastard who would brand a baby, for god's sake, let's think about the reason...Joleta's kid wasn't property. The only reason for him to be branded was "a mistake". A mistake that would be enough to allow the kids to be switched. Guzel was the one who would have allowed the mistake - she was the principal mistress, controlled the harem.

Yes, Camille is the Dame de Doubtance...

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Thanks Chataya. I confess that just makes things more confusing, but I was reading so fast I probably skipped a lot of details. Really makes me re-think Guzel... what was her game, I wonder? I'll have to re-read those parts sometimes...

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I think Guzel thought she could change fate and thwart Camille's plans for Lymond.

I think Marthe thought do too.

Btw how do you pronounce Marthe?

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Mart', I guess, because it's a French name.

I have a phonetic font on my laptop, but I think the board's software won't display that properly.

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