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R+L=J v.28


FrozenFire3

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Not taking sides here, but it has been contended that the green eyes and stature are a result of the diet of the Crannogmen or something in the environment, similar to the Fremen in Dune getting blue eyes from spice exposure.

were was that stated? I thought it was only something the two walders were saying just like the stuff about crannogmen green teeth. :dunno:

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were was that stated? I thought it was only something the two walders were saying just like the stuff about crannogmen green teeth. :dunno:

I was referring to posters making the contention, I don't recall if there was anything in the text.

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So again, HR would have needed to Father a legitmate child around the same time as Jon, or Robb?

HR gets around. :leer:

Anyway, it's as good a theory as any given the total misunderstanding of Mels vision that would have to be taking place.

Personally, I like simple, streamlined theories- the baby-switching with Jon, and possibly Aegon are quite enough for me, or this starts to look like Jerry Springer.

But, I can appreciate the irony of such a theory if this strange girl shows up at the wall needing help, actually fuflilling Mels vision without either Jon, or Mel even knowing it.

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Yes, I agree. The times we are discussing about are very similar to times in real history. Women died in childbirth or nearly died anyway and people did not concern themselves. It was natural. Elia may have been perfectly healthy but have difficulties during pregnancy and/or childbirth... I don't think that would have stopped Rhaegar. The third head of the dragon, the PtwP, all these prophecies obsessed him too much. But if Elia really couldn't give him a child, then he would have chosen someone else... when Lyanna happened he may have fallen in love with her, struck by her beauty, strength, uncommon nature but he was also, I think, trying to fulfill the prophecy. Anyway it was not uncommon for noble men in the past to father children with other women if their wives could not, for example, give them sons.

I also apologize for the term "breeder," as I was in a hurry, and it's a bit harsh for the normal course of things.

I should have clarified "royal breeder," as I tend to have disdain for this idea.

It's true that men did do such things, but with Lyanna, I think it's different because she is so highborn, (I think she may have been the equivelent of a Dukes daughter).

She is also a "Maiden" which means she holds an almost reverent place in a society based on chivalry, so Rhaegar really stepped out of the box.

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I really think Alfie Allen's offhand Luke Skywalker comparison is being taken a little too literally in some cases. In a general way, Luke and Jon are alike - orphaned sons of unknown parents and raised by uncles. Assuming R+L=J, both had mothers who were high born who died shortly after giving birth to them. Luke went on to discover the truth of their parentage, which probably means Jon will too.

I doubt Jon has a secret twin sister. I seriously doubt that Alfie meant to spoil that level of detail by making the comparison. I think it's enough that if R+L=J, Jon has an aunt that he doesn't know about yet. He might develop a romantic attraction to Daenerys before he learns that she is his aunt, just as Luke seemed to with Leia before he learned that she was his sister.

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In response to Ned's verbal acclamation that Jon was his son, I point the posters to Bran's first Reader experience, traveling through the roots of the Heart Trees, back in time to Ned's wish that Robb and Jon grow up to be brotherly. With his desire fulfilled, it would only be too easy to lump them together in that way.

The Meera-is-a-twin theory is new to me and intriguing, although I honestly can't see it (besides perhaps Meera's story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and the Knight, assuming it was in fact Lyanna in disguise, appearing small, crannogman-like). I cannot imagine a situation where Ned would allow a child born of his beloved sister in the care of someone else, regardless of his friendship with Howland Reed.

If Meera was the twin sister of Jon Snow, and the daughter of Lyanna Stark, wouldn't there have been seven direwolf pups instead of six? If that isn't the case, then she would at least show some warging ability or greensight, etc, yet she has yet to do so. Besides, she and Jojen already have a twin-like relationship as siblings.

In my humble opinion, Jon Snow is very much like Rhaegar, in that they are/were both deeply contemplative about the events leading up to, and including, their birth, their origins, and their destiny. Rhaegar frequented the charred husk of Summerhall alone, trying to deal with the pain of loss that preempted his birth. Jon joins the Night's Watch because of his low status as a result of a seemingly bastard birth. Also, both tend to keep to themselves, surrounding themselves only with friends they take to be genuine and trustworthy (Arthur Dayne, Jon Connington for Rhaegar/Samwell Tarly, Pyp, the Aurochs for Jon).

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Good lord - we're already up to 28?

yep so r+l=j, r+l=meera a+j=tyrion, dany is really Rhaegars, and cerseis bunch are all KING BOB's the drunk

and the good septa lemore is really ashara dayne but also aegon the fake and the septa sand snakes mother :dunno: :huh:

whats missing??????

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I can see Jojen = HR nobody ever said what he looked like. I don't see Meera, she sound like a crann.

Nobody did? I guess I had presumed he was the same age, based on meera's descriptions. I can't recall, but is there anything that would suggest that he is Howland Reed?

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Nobody did? I guess I had presumed he was the same age, based on meera's descriptions. I can't recall, but is there anything that would suggest that he is Howland Reed?

not really except i think bran says something like he looks like a little old man(somn around there)

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I really think Alfie Allen's offhand Luke Skywalker comparison is being taken a little too literally in some cases. In a general way, Luke and Jon are alike - orphaned sons of unknown parents and raised by uncles. Assuming R+L=J, both had mothers who were high born who died shortly after giving birth to them. Luke went on to discover the truth of their parentage, which probably means Jon will too.

I doubt Jon has a secret twin sister. I seriously doubt that Alfie meant to spoil that level of detail by making the comparison. I think it's enough that if R+L=J, Jon has an aunt that he doesn't know about yet. He might develop a romantic attraction to Daenerys before he learns that she is his aunt, just as Luke seemed to with Leia before he learned that she was his sister.

I think the twin theory is a bit too stretched. Afterall, as you said, Alfie said there was a kind of Luke Skywalker situation going on. This does not necessarily mean Jon has a twin. He just grew up with an uncle, his real mother was in love with someone who was considered "the enemy", she died in childbirth, his father died protecting him (Ok Anakin died way after but still... Rhaegar died fighting at the trident, protecting the woman he loved and his son)...The Luke-Leia brother-sister attraction might be developed differently. Jon might fall for Dany.

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I am thrilled that we are up to 28. It shows (me at least) that this subject is very compelling stuff for many of the readers/watchers.

I have a question for the far-more-knowledgeable posters here regarding Viserys and the KG -- not to open the KG discussion again but...do we remember if Viserys commented on the fact that -- in his view at least -- he was the heir to the throne when he went to Dragonstone and his KG protection was not what it should have been given his status as heir? (considering that he would be unaware of the R+L=J situation). Wouldn't this possibly have aroused Viserys' curiosity (though we may never know now)? I can't help but wonder.

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I am thrilled that we are up to 28. It shows (me at least) that this subject is very compelling stuff for many of the readers/watchers.

I have a question for the far-more-knowledgeable posters here regarding Viserys and the KG -- not to open the KG discussion again but...do we remember if Viserys commented on the fact that -- in his view at least -- he was the heir to the throne when he went to Dragonstone and his KG protection was not what it should have been given his status as heir? (considering that he would be unaware of the R+L=J situation). Wouldn't this possibly have aroused Viserys' curiosity (though we may never know now)? I can't help but wonder.

I don't think this was ever mentioned, and I believe that this might partly relate to the explanation concerning Lyanna Ned offered to the world. IMHO, so as to avoid people figuring out two and two, he must have claimed that the KG in that isolated location were out of touch with the world and didn't know about Aerys and Aegon' deaths (possibly not even Rhaegar's). And Viserys was at that time probably too young to wonder about time factors, especially when news must have arrived belatedly at Dragonstone and it all basically boiled down to so-and-son died at Trident, the others at ToJ, the rest betrayed.

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I really think Alfie Allen's offhand Luke Skywalker comparison is being taken a little too literally in some cases. In a general way, Luke and Jon are alike - orphaned sons of unknown parents and raised by uncles. Assuming R+L=J, both had mothers who were high born who died shortly after giving birth to them. Luke went on to discover the truth of their parentage, which probably means Jon will too.

:agree:

And this begs the question: why are so many heroes in popular culture orphans raised by their aunt/uncle?!

Knowing Martin's habit of subverting the genre, this makes me fear for Jon more than anything else.

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I am thrilled that we are up to 28. It shows (me at least) that this subject is very compelling stuff for many of the readers/watchers.

I have a question for the far-more-knowledgeable posters here regarding Viserys and the KG -- not to open the KG discussion again but...do we remember if Viserys commented on the fact that -- in his view at least -- he was the heir to the throne when he went to Dragonstone and his KG protection was not what it should have been given his status as heir? (considering that he would be unaware of the R+L=J situation). Wouldn't this possibly have aroused Viserys' curiosity (though we may never know now)? I can't help but wonder.

I re-read Danys' POV in GoT a few weeks ago, and I don't recall Viserys ever commenting on the KG not being with him on Dragonstone. I have to assume that just about everyone in Westeros (and a few in Essos) assumed that the KG were at the TOJ because Rhaegar ordered them to hold the "kidnapped" Lynanna at all costs. It appears that Viserys also believed that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, as he told Dany that Rhaegar took her at swordpoint.

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:agree:

And this begs the question: why are so many heroes in popular culture orphans raised by their aunt/uncle?!

Knowing Martin's habit of subverting the genre, this makes me fear for Jon more than anything else.

Being raised outside of the family of origin, by a second degree relative or step-parent, as a bastard, or in an adoptive family, is an integral part of the epic hero monomyth. The archetype goes back thousands of years and crosses many cultures.

To see a direct application of why this childhoood experience serves the hero in their epic tasks to come, please read some of the discussion on the Learning to Lead? Jon and Dany parallels thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...-adwd-chapters/

The alienation inherent in the fostering environment prepares heroes for the time when they must set themselves aside from their companions and peers and go forth to complete their destiny.

And I don't think we need to worry about Jon, at least until the end of the series, since his task is not complete. He needed to undergo a metaphorical death of some type to progress. Jon has survived the attack somehow and will complete his epic journey.

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Being raised outside of the family of origin, by a second degree relative or step-parent, as a bastard, or in an adoptive family, is an integral part of the epic hero monomyth. The archetype goes back thousands of years and crosses many cultures.

To see a direct application of why this childhoood experience serves the hero in their epic tasks to come, please read some of the discussion on the Learning to Lead? Jon and Dany parallels thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...-adwd-chapters/

The alienation inherent in the fostering environment prepares heroes for the time when they must set themselves aside from their companions and peers and go forth to complete their destiny.

And I don't think we need to worry about Jon, at least until the end of the series, since his task is not complete. He needed to undergo a metaphorical death of some type to progress. Jon has survived the attack somehow and will complete his epic journey.

I have been thinking something along the same lines. Jon Snow has been made to suffer all his life, despite his heritage. Something Varys said actually works here, to a degree, that (f)aegon has been trained to serve, that he won't see the throne as his right, but as his duty. There is a similar parallel with Jon.

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Nobody saw this one coming and my head may have exploded after thinking about it...but...if Aegon is younger than he is said to be (judging by how he acts), and given Jon and Meera were born in the same year, then it's possible R + L = J, A, and M....zomg!

The dragon will have three heads...triplets. boom. And if Targ madness was passed on and Meera and Jon lucked out then it would be fitting and heartbreaking for new-Aegon to have to go down / compete with his sibling.

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Yes, Aegon, real or fake, may fit the archetype as well.

I'm not convinced that Aegon is fake. Granted his sudden appearance draws all sorts of questions, but we know Illyrio of Pentos has nothing better to do than hide Targaryens and Lannisters. This is his bread and butter.

The thought, though, that he is fake, is interesting. Illyrio, though he has had very little appearance in the series, seems to be controlling quite a bit.

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