R+L=J v.28

[Alia of the knife]

Are Green eyes completely out of the Targ. gene pool?

Sheera Seastar, a Targaryen Great Bastard, and Bloodravens old lover had two mismatched eyes, with one of them green.

[Elric the White Wolf]

Type 'some secrets' into the search box upper right of this page. There are many good discussion threads to read through on this question.

I am delighted to know that this is available -- now I can spend even more ridiculous amounts of time reading/searching everything related to R+L=J.

Not sure what to say about the triplets theory -- except that it seems a bit much? But that's just mho of course. It's fun to speculate...

[LordGideon]

Hey guys. I'm pretty new to the whole ASOIAF thing. I just finished book 5 yesterday, so bear with me. I just have a couple questions regarding Jon. I'm honestly pretty convinced that R+L=J, but...

How canon is R+L=J? Is it the pretty much the majority among fans? Or are a sizable amount still skeptical?

In interviews, how has GRRM been on the subject of Jon's parentage? Is he quiet? Does he avoid the question? Drop hints?

I'd appreciate answers. Thanks

[Thendel]

Are Green eyes completely out of the Targ. gene pool?

Sheera Seastar, a Targaryen Great Bastard, and Bloodravens old lover had two mismatched eyes, with one of them green.

Presumably because Shiera's mother had green eyes. I never said that Targaeryen genes override green eyes, only that there aren't anyone who could have given those green eyes. There is little indication of anyone in the Stark family having green eyes: Lyanna herself and all of her siblings had grey eyes. If Martin were to pull "Meera is also a secret Targ!" out of his... hat, that would be so contrived, given that we have no indications of any of her supposedly immediate family having green eyes. As would the idea that she got green eyes through some diet she has been fed.

[Arionis]

Presumably because Shiera's mother had green eyes. I never said that Targaeryen genes override green eyes, only that there aren't anyone who could have given those green eyes. There is little indication of anyone in the Stark family having green eyes: Lyanna herself and all of her siblings had grey eyes. If Martin were to pull "Meera is also a secret Targ!" out of his... hat, that would be so contrived, given that we have no indications of any of her supposedly immediate family having green eyes. As would the idea that she got green eyes through some diet she has been fed.

Or some ancestors with the green gene. It's recessive, like the grey and the blue ones. For example, I have green-light blue eyes: my father has grey-light blue eyes and my mother brown eyes, with shades of green that pop out with the sun; I always wondered why, then I discovered my great-grandmother had green eyes, so the gene passed to my gran, to my mother and to me.

I'm not sold on Meera-is-Jon-twin theory, though.

[Thendel]

Or some ancestors with the green gene. It's recessive, like the grey and the blue ones. For example, I have green-light blue eyes: my father has grey-light blue eyes and my mother brown eyes, with shades of green that pop out with the sun; I always wondered why, then I discovered my great-grandmother had green eyes, so the gene passed to my gran, to my mother and to me.

I'm not sold on Meera-is-Jon-twin theory, though.

Still, my beef is not with the genetical probability of Meera having green eyes despite her parents having two different eye colours, but rather with the theory than in a world where he has made a point of distinct family looks (e.g. the "Stark" and "Targaeryen looks"), GRRM reveals Meera to be a descendant of two families with said "looks", neither of which she seems to resemble.

That is way too much out of the blue, and unlike R+L=J, there are no indications of this, other than the fact that she is sixteen years old, her father was best buddies with the Ned, and some ambiguous comment made by a supporting actor who does not share GRRM's exact knowledge of the story. In other words, it would be contrived, and I have higher expectations of GRRM than that.

[Hombre_Lobo]

A thought occurred to me regarding Jon, Daenerys, and (f)Aegon.

As Varys said, Aegon was trained for leadership, his entire life has been to teach him that it is his duty to lead, and not his right by birth.

Daenerys, on the other hand, has had no guide. She has been learning to lead from the start, the hard way.

Jon, meanwhile, is on the wall, learning the obligations of command.Each of the three is being taught to lead, in different ways.

All of this would seem to reflect on the three headed dragon.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Ned calls him "my son" verbally, in the presence of others, but never in his own thoughts.

but more importantly, I dont recall him referring to Jon himself as "son"....when talking to others maybe, but I dont think he ever calls Jon son when talking to him.

[Hombre_Lobo]

but more importantly, I dont recall him referring to Jon himself as "son"....when talking to others maybe, but I dont think he ever calls Jon son when talking to him.

From my recollection, when he called Jon his son, it was because of the company he was in. Throughout Ned has been very cagey about Jon, and to my knowledge that was one of the very few times he called Jon his son.

[Maxpey]

Hey guys. I'm pretty new to the whole ASOIAF thing. I just finished book 5 yesterday, so bear with me. I just have a couple questions regarding Jon. I'm honestly pretty convinced that R+L=J, but...

How canon is R+L=J? Is it the pretty much the majority among fans? Or are a sizable amount still skeptical?

In interviews, how has GRRM been on the subject of Jon's parentage? Is he quiet? Does he avoid the question? Drop hints?

I'd appreciate answers. Thanks

While GRRM is coy about answering the question, people connected to the show (Sean Bean, Alfie Allen, B & W) have basically come out and said that GRRM has told them R + L = J is true. Sean Bean gave an interview in New York magazine. There is a thread about the Alfie Allen interview on this forum. I can't recall what magazine the B & W interview appeared, but I am sure you can google it. Hope this answer helps.

[Maxpey]

but more importantly, I dont recall him referring to Jon himself as "son"....when talking to others maybe, but I dont think he ever calls Jon son when talking to him.

Completely playing Devil's Advocate here, but neither does he ever think of Jon as the lawful heir to Westeros. Common sense would say that this thought would at least cross his mind, ever so briefly, at some point in time. I understand it's not quite the same, but I think we shouldn't put too much weight on this one point.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Completely playing Devil's Advocate here, but neither does he ever think of Jon as the lawful heir to Westeros. Common sense would say that this thought would at least cross his mind, ever so briefly, at some point in time. I understand it's not quite the same, but I think we shouldn't put too much weight on this one point.

His best friend conquered the throne, and disposed of the Targaryens. If R+L=J there is no reason for Ned to believe that Jon is the lawful heir to Westeros.

[Ygrain]

Completely playing Devil's Advocate here, but neither does he ever think of Jon as the lawful heir to Westeros. Common sense would say that this thought would at least cross his mind, ever so briefly, at some point in time. I understand it's not quite the same, but I think we shouldn't put too much weight on this one point.

Well, maybe it does cross his mind, in between his PoVs :D In the PoVs themselves... with the Baratheons, whom Ned certainly does not intend to depose, firmly in power, there is virtually no reason why he should be thinking about Jon in connection with the throne, unless something reminds him. - Basically I go about my daily business without thinking about my son's food allergy, even though it affects the preparation of every single meal, and I can't recall the last time I uttered the statement "my son is alergic", unless as a response to a direct question. I find it entirely plausible that Ned doesn't think at all about Jon's worthless claim to a metal chair, he has no reason to.

[Lady Octarina]

While GRRM is coy about answering the question, people connected to the show (Sean Bean, Alfie Allen, B & W) have basically come out and said that GRRM has told them R + L = J is true. Sean Bean gave an interview in New York magazine. There is a thread about the Alfie Allen interview on this forum. I can't recall what magazine the B & W interview appeared, but I am sure you can google it. Hope this answer helps.

I don't think I had heard about any comments by Sean Bean on this subject - what exactly did he say?

:eek:

[Maxpey]

His best friend conquered the throne, and disposed of the Targaryens. If R+L=J there is no reason for Ned to believe that Jon is the lawful heir to Westeros.

I completely understand that.

However, don't you think at some point during his POV chapters Ned would let his thoughts wander and think to himself that he was raising the lawful heir to throne?

How about when the small council was debating what to do with Dany because of the potential threat she posed as the presumed Targaryen heir? I don't know about you, but if I was Ned, Jon would surely cross my mind at this point. But, this is GRRM's world and we are stuck with his rules. He decided that we would not be privy to Ned's thoughts about this subject, for understandable reasons.

I guess I am arguing that GRRM's failure to have Ned think of Jon as his son is not the strongest piece of evidence supporting R + L = J.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I completely understand that.

However, don't you think at some point during his POV chapters Ned would let his thoughts wander and think to himself that he was raising the lawful heir to throne?

How about when the small council was debating what to do with Dany because of the potential threat she posed as the presumed Targaryen heir? I don't know about you, but if I was Ned, Jon would surely cross my mind at this point.

I guess I am arguing that GRRM's failure to have Ned think of Jon as his son is not the strongest piece of evidence supporting R + L = J.

But, if R+L=J which is one of the biggest mysteries of the novels, would GRRM really place that thought in Ned's POV chapters?

[Maxpey]

I don't think I had heard about any comments by Sean Bean on this subject - what exactly did he say?

:eek:

For some reason, I can't post the link. Sorry.

In a nutshell, he is asked about Jon's parentage, and in his answer he says something to the effect of "even if I was his father . . ."

[Teal'c]

But, if R+L=J which is one of the biggest mysteries of the novels, would GRRM really place that thought in Ned's POV chapters?

No more than he will give us a POV on Varys or Littlefinger. We'd know too much too soon.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

No more than he will give us a POV on Varys or Littlefinger. We'd know too much too soon.

Exactly, that's the point I was trying to make. It would ruin the mystery.

[Maxpey]

But, if R+L=J which is one of the biggest mysteries of the novels, would GRRM really place that thought in Ned's POV chapters?

You are correct that he wouldn't.

I guess I am having trouble differentiating between what is and what isn't reasonable for Ned to think about. People are arguing that if Jon was Ned's son, then it is reasonable to assume that Ned would think of him as such. The fact that he doesn't means that Jon is not Ned's son. That is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.

However, I think it is not the "strongest" argument because it is not as logically sound as other arguments, for the reasons I posted above. I guess I am just nitpicking at this point.