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Wildlings/Free Folk


BlueEyedCrow

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I'm not sure anyone should be forced to live in the Dreadfort after what Ramsay has done there. Burn it to the ground and let Tormund settle the Gift, if he wants.

If there's one man out there in the westeros universe who only has half a member (which is still bigger than most men's), and can reestablish the reputation of the meadfort :cheers:, by the old gods and the new, that man is Tormund Giantsbane, the Tall Talker, Father to Bears, Tormund Thunderfist, Horn Blower, and Mead King of Ruddy Hall!!!!! :commie: Har!!!

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I kind of liked the idea Jon Snow had about the NW to join forces with the Wildilngs / Free folk.

The NW was in a kind of catastrophic state, with the lack of men, equipment and food.

So if there is possible to resolve the issues with food and equipments, it would have been quite impressive if the abandoned forts along the Wall could be manned again and the NW standing strong.

I wonder what really happens with Join Snow in WOW, and what kind of consequences it will have for the situation with the Wildlings / Free folk that Snow let through to the other side of the Wall.

If Jon Snow were to die, god forbid, the remaining men of the NW will probably not be so very keen on having the Wildling/ Free folk hanging around the Castle black, or the wall.

But then again, what could the men of the NW really do? They are being outnumbered by the Wildlings and now they don`t even have the Wall to seperate them if it came to figting...

And would really the Wildlings / Free folk like to stick around the Wall? I am not so sure about that..

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And would really the Wildlings / Free folk like to stick around the Wall? I am not so sure about that..

Anywhere else they would likely get executed on sight. In the North they have the best chance of peaceful existence, especially if the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is behind them. Down south there isn't much Jon could do for them. Their best hope is to help NW defend the realm on the Wall, which is a great strategic advantage, and I believe that Wildling know that if The Others get through they will have nowhere to run, no matter how south they go.

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I think the Wildlings, their leaders at the least, are intelligent enough to realize that they have a common enemy with the Night's Watch. I don't see them fleeing south, regardless of what happens with Jon. They might even be more inclined to stay because people like Tormund respect Jon and understand what he was trying to accomplish, and also realize that their lives are on the line as well.

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As mentioned the wildings know the enemy, and that they are coming, and the whole reason they united together with Mance was to use their combined strength to get to the other side of the wall to protect them from the others, if they did defeat the others and make it to the other side no doubt they would of just remained around the gift area to avoid getting the armies of the south going against them and man the wall against the Others. But that plan was crushed when Stannis came, displaying that even a force of 1500 armored soldiers could break the wildings force, so if they were faced with 10-30 thousand from the south they would of been destroyed so they would of remained at the Wall and no doubt those who are currently across would remain because the people of the North do not like them very much.

Then again I again a surprise might be the wildings marching against Roose Bolten simply in Jon honour, and that was his last wish.

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As mentioned the wildings know the enemy, and that they are coming, and the whole reason they united together with Mance was to use their combined strength to get to the other side of the wall to protect them from the others, if they did defeat the others and make it to the other side no doubt they would of just remained around the gift area to avoid getting the armies of the south going against them and man the wall against the Others. But that plan was crushed when Stannis came, displaying that even a force of 1500 armored soldiers could break the wildings force, so if they were faced with 10-30 thousand from the south they would of been destroyed so they would of remained at the Wall and no doubt those who are currently across would remain because the people of the North do not like them very much.

Then again I again a surprise might be the wildings marching against Roose Bolten simply in Jon honour, and that was his last wish.

That would be AWESOME. The only problem is, like you said, they are not exactly knights. On that same logic they'd probably be smashed by Bolton unless they had a huge numbers advantage. Maybe Stannis will do that job for them, though. Besides, Jon will be back!

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Something that people haven't mentioned, from the Melisandre chapter in ADWD:

"Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken [Mance Rayder's] words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished."

(This isn't the first time GRRM has indicated this; the early Jon chapters in ASOS are filled with intimations that the wildlings seem themselves as dying out.)

This doesn't necessarily mean that all the wildlings will be dead by the end of the series, but I think it's easy to imagine how wildling culture could generally die out. As noted before, only a small percentage (less than 10,000 people) have managed to make it beyond the Wall by the end of ADWD, and it's unlikely that very many more will survive. The rest will largely be turned into wights, giving the Others an undead army tens of thousands strong. The surviving wildlings largely remain on the Gift or in various castles along the Wall.

The upshot of this is that once the Wall falls, most of those wildlings who live will be either killed by the collapse itself or on the front lines against a ravenous undead horde. So most of those who survived the long march to the Wall will die shortly thereafter, as will most of the Night's Watch. By the end of ADOS, it would not be surprising to me if the number of surviving wildlings number in the hundreds. Of those, the ones most likely to survive will be the Thenns, who are more disciplined fighters than the others and likely to be at Karhold when the Wall falls.

Also, if this is the direction that GRRM is going, it's hard for me to imagine Tormund and Mance surviving the series. If 99% of the wildlings are going to die, then GRRM needs to sell that by killing the two most prominent and memorable wildlings as well.

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Something that people haven't mentioned, from the Melisandre chapter in ADWD:

"Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken [Mance Rayder's] words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished."

(This isn't the first time GRRM has indicated this; the early Jon chapters in ASOS are filled with intimations that the wildlings seem themselves as dying out.)

This doesn't necessarily mean that all the wildlings will be dead by the end of the series, but I think it's easy to imagine how wildling culture could generally die out. As noted before, only a small percentage (less than 10,000 people) have managed to make it beyond the Wall by the end of ADWD, and it's unlikely that very many more will survive. The rest will largely be turned into wights, giving the Others an undead army tens of thousands strong. The surviving wildlings largely remain on the Gift or in various castles along the Wall.

The upshot of this is that once the Wall falls, most of those wildlings who live will be either killed by the collapse itself or on the front lines against a ravenous undead horde. So most of those who survived the long march to the Wall will die shortly thereafter, as will most of the Night's Watch. By the end of ADOS, it would not be surprising to me if the number of surviving wildlings number in the hundreds. Of those, the ones most likely to survive will be the Thenns, who are more disciplined fighters than the others and likely to be at Karhold when the Wall falls.

Also, if this is the direction that GRRM is going, it's hard for me to imagine Tormund and Mance surviving the series. If 99% of the wildlings are going to die, then GRRM needs to sell that by killing the two most prominent and memorable wildlings as well.

The wildlings vanishing might not mean that they all die, just that the survivors are integrated into northern Westerosi culture, as John has been attempting.

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Something that people haven't mentioned, from the Melisandre chapter in ADWD:

"Melisandre nodded solemnly, as if she had taken [Mance Rayder's] words to heart, but this Weeper did not matter. None of his free folk mattered. They were a lost people, a doomed people destined to vanish from the earth, as the children of the forest had vanished."

(This isn't the first time GRRM has indicated this; the early Jon chapters in ASOS are filled with intimations that the wildlings seem themselves as dying out.)

This doesn't necessarily mean that all the wildlings will be dead by the end of the series, but I think it's easy to imagine how wildling culture could generally die out. As noted before, only a small percentage (less than 10,000 people) have managed to make it beyond the Wall by the end of ADWD, and it's unlikely that very many more will survive. The rest will largely be turned into wights, giving the Others an undead army tens of thousands strong. The surviving wildlings largely remain on the Gift or in various castles along the Wall.

The upshot of this is that once the Wall falls, most of those wildlings who live will be either killed by the collapse itself or on the front lines against a ravenous undead horde. So most of those who survived the long march to the Wall will die shortly thereafter, as will most of the Night's Watch. By the end of ADOS, it would not be surprising to me if the number of surviving wildlings number in the hundreds. Of those, the ones most likely to survive will be the Thenns, who are more disciplined fighters than the others and likely to be at Karhold when the Wall falls.

Also, if this is the direction that GRRM is going, it's hard for me to imagine Tormund and Mance surviving the series. If 99% of the wildlings are going to die, then GRRM needs to sell that by killing the two most prominent and memorable wildlings as well.

Tormund alone had nearly 5000 people with him. Add to that all the other leaders + Free folk that crossed on their own, and the ones that made it through before ADWD.

Additionally, the Wildling culture, and people, are already partially preserved with the house Thenn.

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Tormund alone had nearly 5000 people with him. Add to that all the other leaders + Free folk that crossed on their own, and the ones that made it through before ADWD.

Right. Hence, less than 10,000 people, since there's no indication that anything like five thousand other wildlings got into the North. That's already a loss of 80-90% of the population, and that's before the Others invade in earnest, which will cause massive casualties.

And the Thenns have a very distinct culture from the rest of the wildlings. This point has been made in the books on multiple occasions.

The wildlings vanishing might not mean that they all die, just that the survivors are integrated into northern Westerosi culture, as John has been attempting.

I'm confused, because I thought I was suggesting this very thing.

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My guess is that the majority of the wildlings repopulate the gift with Tormund as their Lord, also there will have to be something done with the Dreadfort (unless Roose's unborn baby or Ramsay's possible fetus get rewarded the lands). All in all the majority of them will repopulate the gift and the rest will move further into the North. Some of the leaders may be holdfasts to rule and become bannerman.

I also agree that we are going to have another inflow of wildlings at the wall trying to get away from the Others.

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Right. Hence, less than 10,000 people, since there's no indication that anything like five thousand other wildlings got into the North. That's already a loss of 80-90% of the population, and that's before the Others invade in earnest, which will cause massive casualties.

And the Thenns have a very distinct culture from the rest of the wildlings. This point has been made in the books on multiple occasions.

Well they had a few other well known leaders. They could each have had quite a bit of men.

And I don't think that the majority of the Wildlings are dead right now. 30.000 fought in the battle of Castle Black. A good deal of them made it back. And add to that the rest of the Free Folk who didn't partake in battle. The Others couldn't have killed the bulk of them in such a short notice. They know their way through the Lands beyond the Wall, and at some point might cross over the Wall. And 10.000 people are not few at all, especially in the North, where they can largely keep their culture.

Someone made a compelling argument that the whole of Westeros has 5-6.000.000 people at the best. Because otherwise there wouldn't be talk about how there would be no one to take care of the fields and cattle and both younger and older peasants wouldn't be drafted as soldiers by anyone. But Marin has stressed on many occasions that this will be a huge problem, because winter is coming. and that many will starve. And if you had a population of millions for each region loss of tens of thousands of people wouldn't have had such a resounding impact.

And one thing I don't understand ... How the hell did the slavers know that they will find Wildlings at Hardhome? The site has been purposely evaded by Wildlings for hundreds of years. Why would they think they will find anyone there?

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The two whalers were washed ashore at Hardhome due to a storm, typically ships avoid that area because the seas are dangerous, but yea they landed at Hardhome and enslaved a few hundred per ship then when sailing for Myr or Lys or Volantis to sell the slaves they were hit by a storm which led to one being pushed to Bravoss who freed the slaves and will are likely to send their navy to stop what would be a flood of slavers making their way to Hardhome since Slavers bay has been destroyed with War and price of slaves have sky rocketed. If they dont which is most likely then stuff is going to get a whole lot interesting at Hardhome when the slavers come and their is things in the water and people are dying.

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Well they had a few other well known leaders. They could each have had quite a bit of men.

And I don't think that the majority of the Wildlings are dead right now. 30.000 fought in the battle of Castle Black. A good deal of them made it back. And add to that the rest of the Free Folk who didn't partake in battle. The Others couldn't have killed the bulk of them in such a short notice. They know their way through the Lands beyond the Wall, and at some point might cross over the Wall. And 10.000 people are not few at all, especially in the North, where they can largely keep their culture.

Someone made a compelling argument that the whole of Westeros has 5-6.000.000 people at the best. Because otherwise there wouldn't be talk about how there would be no one to take care of the fields and cattle and both younger and older peasants wouldn't be drafted as soldiers by anyone. But Marin has stressed on many occasions that this will be a huge problem, because winter is coming. and that many will starve. And if you had a population of millions for each region loss of tens of thousands of people wouldn't have had such a resounding impact.

And one thing I don't understand ... How the hell did the slavers know that they will find Wildlings at Hardhome? The site has been purposely evaded by Wildlings for hundreds of years. Why would they think they will find anyone there?

The Mance lead all the Wildlings south, about 100,000. Something less than 10,000 made it through after the battle itself and under Tormund. Everybody else is still out and a lot of them are dead.

And Westeros has about 40,000,000 people. That's the generally accepted number. It's too early in the morning for an extensive explanation, but it's based on historical rules of thumb based on the army sizes.

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The Mance lead all the Wildlings south, about 100,000. Something less than 10,000 made it through after the battle itself and under Tormund. Everybody else is still out and a lot of them are dead.

And Westeros has about 40,000,000 people. That's the generally accepted number. It's too early in the morning for an extensive explanation, but it's based on historical rules of thumb based on the army sizes.

I can't really accept he led ALL of them. Maybe a large majority, but I don't think that every Wildling was under him. But yeah, a lot of them are dead, but there is no way that 80-90% of them are already dead at this point as Harry the Heir stated.

As for the 40.000.000 people, I could get down with that (and I did, until I read that one post), if there wasn't so much talk about the lack of manpower, and not just the lack of soldiers. There is almost no one left to harvest the fields, and that is a huge problem.

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I can't really accept he led ALL of them. Maybe a large majority, but I don't think that every Wildling was under him. But yeah, a lot of them are dead, but there is no way that 80-90% of them are already dead at this point as Harry the Heir stated.

As for the 40.000.000 people, I could get down with that (and I did, until I read that one post), if there wasn't so much talk about the lack of manpower, and not just the lack of soldiers. There is almost no one left to harvest the fields, and that is a huge problem.

The Karstark lands are the size of England.

If the 2300 men they took south with Robb represented every able bodied male in their lands, then their total population is at most 20,000 people.

In an area the size of England, which had 2 million inhabitents in the Middle Ages. Come on, let's get serious here.

You cannot have a functioning kingdom such as the North if you have 20,000 people spread over such an area. You would never see a peasant. Never see a village. Not have any economy to speak of.

There is no way that the Karstark lands have less than 200,000 people living in it.

Basically, if Karhold was London, then what happened here is that they grabbed all the available men around London and the nearest settlements and rushed off to join Robb, with the rest of England (the Karstark lands) pretty much untouched.

Meaning that Karhold itself has no men left to gather the harvest, but the rest of their lands do.

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The Karstark lands are the size of England.

If the 2300 men they took south with Robb represented every able bodied male in their lands, then their total population is at most 20,000 people.

In an area the size of England, which had 2 million inhabitents in the Middle Ages. Come on, let's get serious here.

You cannot have a functioning kingdom such as the North if you have 20,000 people spread over such an area. You would never see a peasant. Never see a village. Not have any economy to speak of.

There is no way that the Karstark lands have less than 200,000 people living in it.

Basically, if Karhold was London, then what happened here is that they grabbed all the available men around London and the nearest settlements and rushed off to join Robb, with the rest of England (the Karstark lands) pretty much untouched.

Meaning that Karhold itself has no men left to gather the harvest, but the rest of their lands do.

Just because they have a lot of land doesn't mean a lot of people live there. Karhold is the largest settlement in the Karstark lands but that is really only a small town outside of the castle, nowhere near the size of London. Also, there is no reason that they would only take men from Karhold, they would take every man able to fight on Karhold lands because they have no choice but to go with them (that's part of the price of living on their lands), and even if the villages and settlements are far and few between the Karstarks would know where they all are and send men to gather soldiers. Your presumptions don't really make that much sense, they probably would have had even less than the 20,000 you initially guessed. Also, a lot of people are saying that Westeros can't have 40,000,000 people (the generally agreed upon amount) because then there wouldn't have been a shortage of men to farm, but since all of the able-bodied men went to war (from The North at least) then that leaves only the women, children, and infirm to farm for all of the citizens - so really, the higher the population, the more likely it is that there will be a food shortage, not less.

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Just because they have a lot of land doesn't mean a lot of people live there. Karhold is the largest settlement in the Karstark lands but that is really only a small town outside of the castle, nowhere near the size of London. Also, there is no reason that they would only take men from Karhold, they would take every man able to fight on Karhold lands because they have no choice but to go with them (that's part of the price of living on their lands), and even if the villages and settlements are far and few between the Karstarks would know where they all are and send men to gather soldiers. Your presumptions don't really make that much sense, they probably would have had even less than the 20,000 you initially guessed. Also, a lot of people are saying that Westeros can't have 40,000,000 people (the generally agreed upon amount) because then there wouldn't have been a shortage of men to farm, but since all of the able-bodied men went to war (from The North at least) then that leaves only the women, children, and infirm to farm for all of the citizens - so really, the higher the population, the more likely it is that there will be a food shortage, not less.

You have to take in account that this is a medieval land, a medieval army. I have no idea where this idea of taking all able men to fight appeared. That is simply not the way things worked. Only the noble fought, and the few soldiers they had. The huge majority of the peasants not only had no right to fight, but they were forbidden to have arms. Of course, this system was different from country to country in Europe, the English had it better then the German peasants, and of course a lot better then what happened in Eastern Europe. Besides the fact that the nobility didn't want to give any power to the lower classes, it was also a problem of logistics, very difficult to feed a bigger number of soldiers. Anyway, as a simple rule, you can approximate that a medieval army was maybe 1% of the total population, so the North had probably around 5 million.

The wildlings are completely different, they all fight, both men and women, that is why they are a real threat to the North, even if they are few in total numbers. But even so, I find it difficult to believe they would be such a threat if their total population was only 100.000, I would say that they began at at least 500.000, and thinking that they are maybe 10-15000 left south or north of the wall, we can understand how big of a danger are the Others, I mean only about 1-5% of the wildlings are still alive.

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\And I don't think that the majority of the Wildlings are dead right now. 30.000 fought in the battle of Castle Black. A good deal of them made it back. And add to that the rest of the Free Folk who didn't partake in battle. The Others couldn't have killed the bulk of them in such a short notice.

You don't think so? I think the Others could easily kill tens of thousands of wildlings over a period of six to nine months. Widlings that were, mind you, split off into tiny unprotected bands that could be picked off piecemeal, and who were so distraught after the defeat of Mance Rayder that they were acting irrationally.

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