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Aegon is Legitimate: It's Obvious, Right? (Long OP)

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Is the involement of the Golden Company really evidence of him being a Blackfyre? It seems to me like it doesn't matter at this point. These are by and large men who want to return to the Seven Kingdoms. Does it really matter who gets them there?

Its certainly possible they've abandoned the legacy of Bittersteel, who conspired to put Blackfyre Pretenders on the Iron Throne throughout his life and swore a vow to that effect, and whose skull they parade before them in battle. "Beneath the gold, the Bittersteel" and all that. I don't think its at all likely, though.

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Uhhh - because he actually would be one?

When JC revealed "Aegon's" identity, its made clear the GC already knew who Aegon was/ was supposed to be.

I was referring to ten years ago when JC told the former commander, who supported JC. The commander would believe JC before he believes some creepy cheesemonger or the master of whispers.

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Again, how did the GC get the idea Aegon is a blackfyre? JC is the one who told the former commander, and he supported JCs plan. When the fuck would they start believing hes a blackfyre, and why? JC also agrees with all of Illyrio's plans, so its tough to make Illyrio's plan point to Aegon being a blackfyre

According to Illyrio, he trust JC as a brother. JC the Targareyn loyalist.

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I was referring to ten years ago when JC told the former commander, who supported JC. The commander would believe JC before he believes some creepy cheesemonger or the master of whispers.

That depends entirely on the genesis of the plot (i.e. who it came from and how). There isn't enough information.

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Sure lets believe these points of argument based on speculation of something possibly happening ten years ago. youve convinced me.

and i was pointing out how easy it is to read into these prophecies. Just ask Melisandre how easy it is to get a prophecy wrong. patchface is a mummer, he makes wierd prophecies, there is a mummer's dragon, it must be patchface! and dany slays the lie of him being an idiot, try reading comprehension

Seriously, there's no need to be obnoxious. I'm sorry I didn't scrutinize the second part of your fake devil's advocate position and give it the full attention it so obviously deserved.

I'm not saying that this is something that happened 10 years ago- we don't know when it might have happened- it could have happened 3 weeks before JC arrived for all we know. The point I was trying to respond to in the first post of yours that I quoted is the fact that "Aegon is real" supporters take Varys and Illyrio's words as evidence/ fact of this, yet also say that we shouldn't take what's said in the prophesies as evidence because prophesies are untrustworthy. I am arguing that Varys and Illyrio's words should not be taken at face value. I'm not sure why you're giving me such a hard time about this-- I didn't try to defend my points via prophesy.

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Is the involement of the Golden Company really evidence of him being a Blackfyre? It seems to me like it doesn't matter at this point. These are by and large men who want to return to the Seven Kingdoms. Does it really matter to who gets them there?

Most of the GC consist of Hedge Knights. The motivations for the orignal GC no longer exist, hence the reason they were marching to Volantis to meet Danny prior to Illyrio breaking their contract with Myr.

It's almost as if the Illyrio and Vary's detractors blot out the parts of the novels that paint Illyrio and Varys in a positive light.

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Most of the GC consist of Hedge Knights. The motivations for the orignal GC no longer exist, hence the reason they were marching to Volantis to meet Danny prior to Illyrio breaking their contract with Myr.

It's almost as if the Illyrio and Vary's detractors blot out the parts of the novels that paint Illyrio and Varys in a positive light.

That's my point. They are far enough removed from the troubles involing the Blackfyre's for the company to be able to go either way.

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Is the involement of the Golden Company really evidence of him being a Blackfyre? It seems to me like it doesn't matter at this point. These are by and large men who want to return to the Seven Kingdoms. Does it really matter to who gets them there?

Yes it would be. The GC was started by Bittersteel to put a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. As I said though, Illyrio tells Tyrion that they've given that up to go home. Without that explanation, it certainly would mean that he is a Blackfyre. Again, I could go either way.

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Aegon DID need to be unrecognisable.

Why? He was a hostage confined to his tower.

Otherwise the lords/workers in the Red Keep (who would know Aegon) would have been able to identify the baby presented before them as being fake.

What lords and workers? The city was being sacked. Any lord was killing, or being killed, and the "workers" were likely put to the sword. Who was even in the red keep other than the council, Aeyrs and Jaime?

Aegon was around one year old at this time, which is old enough to be able to differentiate between two babies of a similar age. Varys' whole scheme works on the premise that none of the lords could identify the baby that was laid before Robert as being fake.

Like people recognice Arya?

These arguments are poor.

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To the readers, it's no longer a secret. Never has been. Since book one Illyrio and Varys have aided Viserys, Dany, and Aegon. They've given them armies, protected their identities, given them ships and gifts, given them dragon eggs, sent them aid(Selmy, Griff, Tyrion), guided them through the East so that they may one day return to Westeros

If they were true Targ loyalists, why did they give Dany to the Dothraki whilst thinking that she would not survive? Why weaken the dynasty? Why not inform Viserys that Aegon was alive?

Source? My material says Aeyrs madness was planted in Duskendale, and that Varys "manipulations" began and ended at warning Ayers that Rhaegar was conspiring againt him. Which, according to Jamie's POV arch in AFFC, was true.

Also, how do you explain Varys cautioning Aeyrs against opening his gates to Tywin and the Lannisters?

Because he was.

Barristan and Jaime both comment that Aerys got worse when Varys arrived.

Varys probably thought that Tywin would kill him, ending years of plotting to put Illyrio's son/a Blackfyre on the throne.

Whose to say Rhaegar would make a good king?

Every character who ever met him.

False. They lived with Ser Willem, at the house with the red door, in Pentos, until Willem's death. They were then chased away by Willems servants, which began Viserys traveling around the free cities in search of an army. Something that stopped when he found Illyrio.

They received no help from Illyrio or Varys until Dany was thirteen.

Illyrio didn't sell Danny to Drogo.

ADWD pg. 73

Tyrion: That didn't keep you from selling her to Khal Drogo.

Illyrio: Dothraki neither buy nor sell. Say rather, that her brother Viserys gave her to Drogo to win the Khals friendship. A vain young man, and greedy. Viserys lusted for his father's throne, but he lusted for Daenerys too, and was loath to giver her up.

Also, you're taking the text out of context. That may explain some of these weird theories people come up with. When Illyrio was speaking of his doubts of Danny's survival, it was because of how weak she'd shown herself to that point. He didn't believe she had the strength to survive, and based on what we knew of Danny before his Khal, this sounds completely plausible.

ADWD. pg 73

Illyrio: Daenerys was half a child when she came to me, yet fairer even than my second wife, so lovely I was tempted to claim her for myself. Such a fearful, furitive thing, however, I knew I should get not joy from coupling with her. Instead, I summoned a bedwarmer and fucked her vigorously until the madness passed. If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords.

Illyrio received a lot of wealth when he gave Dany to Drogo. This is buying and selling. The Dothraki may see it as swapping gifts, but the Pentoshi and Westerosi would view it as buying and selling.

But why would he sell Dany, one of the few living Targaryens, to the Dothraki, if he thought she would die? This would leave TWO Targaryens. Targaryen loyalists would not sacrifice one a Targaryen.

He didn't sell her, but her coupling with Drogo is why she has three Dragons and an army, so it all worked out in the end, I'd say.

Everything Dany has now is because of Dany, not because of Illyrio.

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Its certainly possible they've abandoned the legacy of Bittersteel, who conspired to put Blackfyre Pretenders on the Iron Throne throughout his life and swore a vow to that effect, and whose skull they parade before them in battle. "Beneath the gold, the Bittersteel" and all that. I don't think its at all likely, though.

You do realize that Bittersteel lived 100 years ago, and the rebellion was ended by Barristan the Bold around 40 years ago? Again, JC flat out states that the JC isn't the same. Isn't even close, in fact. He's been gone from the company for 10 years, and recognized hardly anyone.

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As for the Golden Company being able to identify Aegon as a Blackfyre, that one is actually not that hard to puzzle out.

Let's assume for a second, based on the evidence others have given, that Young Griff is the son of Illyrio Mopatis and Serra Blackfyre. The original contract, 'writ in blood' by Illyrio's own admission, wasn't signed by cowardly Harry Strickland, but by Myles Toyne, the former right hand of Maelys the Monstrous. While Strickland might support a Targaryen for his own ends, Toyne probably wouldn't. But Toyne would probably know Maelys' children - such as Serra. It would actually be easy for Illyrio to convince Toyne based on that single fact.

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Seriously, there's no need to be obnoxious. I'm sorry I didn't scrutinize the second part of your fake devil's advocate position and give it the full attention it so obviously deserved.

I'm not saying that this is something that happened 10 years ago- we don't know when it might have happened- it could have happened 3 weeks before JC arrived for all we know. The point I was trying to respond to in the first post of yours that I quoted is the fact that "Aegon is real" supporters take Varys and Illyrio's words as evidence/ fact of this, yet also say that we shouldn't take what's said in the prophesies as evidence because prophesies are untrustworthy. I am arguing that Varys and Illyrio's words should not be taken at face value. I'm not sure why you're giving me such a hard time about this-- I didn't try to defend my points via prophesy.

And theres no need to counterpoint an arguement you didnt even read completely

And the former commander of the GC supported JCs plans for Aegon, when JC quit the GC. Read the text, the commander of the GC supported a Targ.

Also, i guess i was agreeing with you about how prophecies are shaky evidence? They mean whatever people want them to mean. The same can be said about Varys and Illyrios true intentions.

Its not happenstance GRRM made Aegon/Faegon so debatable

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Why? He was a hostage confined to his tower.

Because someone could have recognised him.

What lords and workers? The city was being sacked. Any lord was killing, or being killed, and the "workers" were likely put to the sword. Who was even in the red keep other than the council, Aeyrs and Jaime?

The Red Keep was not evacuated. It was full of workers who could have recognised Aegon.

Like people recognice Arya?

No one has seen Arya for three+ years.

The baby swap depends on the fact that no one was able to recognise the substitute Aegon. THAT is why it is important.

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If they were true Targ loyalists, why did they give Dany to the Dothraki whilst thinking that she would not survive?

Because a male heir with 100,000 soldiers is more important to the transition of a Targaryen to the throne than a female heir with nothing.

Why weaken the dynasty? Why not inform Viserys that Aegon was alive?

Because Viserys was a fool. Same reason Doran Martell hesitated to tell him of his marriage pact with Arianne.

Barristan and Jaime both comment that Aerys got worse when Varys arrived.

Yes, madness gets worse in time. Especially when you're receiving council from one who seemingly knows all.

Varys probably thought that Tywin would kill him, ending years of plotting to put Illyrio's son/a Blackfyre on the throne.

Illyrio doesn't have a son, not one that could legitimately pass for a Targaryen of royal birth at least. Sorry, the theory is crack pot.

Every character who ever met him.

That means little and less.

They received no help from Illyrio or Varys until Dany was thirteen.

THEY LIVED WITH SER WILLEM.

Illyrio received a lot of wealth when he gave Dany to Drogo. This is buying and selling. The Dothraki may see it as swapping gifts, but the Pentoshi and Westerosi would view it as buying and selling.

What wealth? Quote the source.

Everything Dany has now is because of Dany, not because of Illyrio.

That's funny, because without Illyrio she'd have no Khal, dragons, Selmy or Strng Belwas, nor ships to sell her from Quarth.

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The baby swap depends on the fact that no one was able to recognise the substitute Aegon. THAT is why it is important.

who would have been able to tell the difference between 2 babies of similar features? The Kingsguard? The women and handsmaids (if any of them were even present) who were no doubt crying and turning to not look? Robert who had never seen baby Aegon? Tywin who was trying to gain Robert's favor?

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You do realize that Bittersteel lived 100 years ago, and the rebellion was ended by Barristan the Bold around 40 years ago?

The fact that the Golden Company fought for Maelys the Monstrous a mere 40 years prior to the series (i.e. within living memory) obviously negates any force behind the whole "Bittersteel lived 100 years ago". And like I said, you may think it likely the Golden Company, whose words are "Beneath the gold, the Bittersteel", and who carries around his skull on their standard decided to abandon their charge merely because Bittersteel lived a long time ago - but I don't. Certainly not when the only reason we have to believe that Bittersteel's legacy has been abandoned is Illyrio Mopatis' say-so.

Again, JC flat out states that the JC isn't the same. Isn't even close, in fact. He's been gone from the company for 10 years, and recognized hardly anyone.

I think you're significantly overstating what the text says in this regard. And frankly, Jon Connington's impressions of the Golden Company aren't the be all and end all of their motivations. He is after all a complete fool about the Targaryens.

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Because someone could have recognised him.

Who?

The Red Keep was not evacuated. It was full of workers who could have recognised Aegon.

What workers?

No one has seen Arya for three+ years.

Gilly and her babes.

The baby swap depends on the fact that no one was able to recognise the substitute Aegon. THAT is why it is important.

Of course no one could recognize the baby, his head had been smashed.

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Because a male heir with 100,000 soldiers is more important to the transition of a Targaryen to the throne than a female heir with nothing.

Dany would have brought with her a marriage alliance with a powerful lord. And three Targaryens are better than two, particularly as you noted that "Viserys was a fool".

Illyrio doesn't have a son, not one that could legitimately pass for a Targaryen of royal birth at least. Sorry, the theory is crack pot.

His wife has Valyrian features. Aegon has Valyrian features. He also has an extremely close bond with Aegon.

That means little and less.

I don't particularly care what you think. Everyone who has met Rhaegar has commented on what a good king he would make. That means a lot in this world.

THEY LIVED WITH SER WILLEM.

Only until Dany was five. They spent eight years wandering the Free Cities WITH NO HELP.

What wealth? Quote the source.

Re-read Dany's wedding. She comments that Illyrio could afford to give her dragon eggs because of the profit he'd made from selling her.

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The fact that the Golden Company fought for Maelys the Monstrous a mere 40 years prior to the series (i.e. within living memory) obviously negates any force behind the whole "Bittersteel lived 100 years ago". And like I said, you may think it likely the Golden Company, whose words are "Beneath the gold, the Bittersteel", and who carries around his skull on their standard decided to abandon their charge merely because Bittersteel lived a long time ago - but I don't. Certainly not when the only reason we have to believe that Bittersteel's legacy has been abandoned is Illyrio Mopatis' say-so.

I think you're significantly overstating what the text says in this regard. And frankly, Jon Connington's impressions of the Golden Company aren't the be all and end all of their motivations. He is after all a complete fool about the Targaryens.

The only members of GC who are blackfyre loyalists are the ones who descended from those exiled from the blackfyre rebellion. Those who fought against Selmy probably support blackfyre, but the majority of GC memebrs come from various different rebellions and different reasons to have been exiled. Their goal is to return to their homeland, victorious. The point of carrying around Bittersteels skull is to put it in the throne room, not to put it up next to a blackfyre king. Up until now, blackfyres were their best shot of winning the iron throne. Then Aegon and JC came around and their goals are a possibility

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