Aegon is Legitimate: It's Obvious, Right? (Long OP)

[Vympel]

Until Bittersteel's dying wish was to have his skull dipped in gold and to be placed in the throne room someday. He never mentions a blackfyre king in that wish.

Bittersteel swore a vow to put a Blackfyre on the throne. His vow and his dying wish are two different things - his dying wish was for his skull to be dipped in gold and carried forth in battle for when they went home to Westeros. I don't remember anything about it being put in the throneroom, but it is neither here nor there.

how many sellswords have survived from the battle 40 years ago? There are old sellswords, but no brave old sellswords, and the GC pride themselves in bravery.

It doesn't matter how many sellswords have survived from 40 years ago. The point is what the origins and quite recent history of the Golden Company tells us, and whether Illyrio Mopatis' claims that they want to fight for the Targaryens now overrides all that.

Like I said, blakcfyres were their best option to win the throne, so they fight for Maelys the Monstrous.

There's no evidence whatsoever the Golden Company just wants to "win the throne". I'm not sure from where in the text you're getting that. Look:-

AFFC:-

“No,” she said. “I would believe it of any of the other free companies, yes. Most of them would

change sides for half a groat. The Golden Company is different. A brotherhood of exiles and the

sons of exiles, united by the dream of Bittersteel. It’s home they want, as much as gold. Lord

Yronwood knows that as well as I do.

ADWD:-

The dwarf pondered that. The Golden Company was reputedly the finest of the free companies,

founded a century ago by Bittersteel, a bastard son of Aegon the Unworthy. When another of Aegon’s

Great Bastards tried to seize the Iron Throne from his trueborn half-brother, Bittersteel joined the

revolt. Daemon Blackfyre had perished on the Redgrass Field, however, and his rebellion with him.

Those followers of the Black Dragon who survived the battle yet refused to bend the knee fled across

the narrow sea, among them Daemon’s younger sons, Bittersteel, and hundreds of landless lords and

knights who soon found themselves forced to sell their swords to eat. Some joined the Ragged Standard,

some the Second Sons or Maiden’s Men. Bittersteel saw the strength of House Blackfyre scattering to

the four winds, so he formed the Golden Company to bind the exiles together.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

This is flase. Bllackheart, JC, Illyrio, Lemore, Haldon, and Varys were all privy to the pact.

"Does he know? Griff wondered. How much did Myles tell him? Varys had been adamant about the need for secrecy. The plans he and Illyrio had made with Blackheart had been known to them alone." ADWD pg 313

[Lummel]

...Illirio Mopatis had a son, and gave him to the stranger Jon Connington at(who doesn't know) 5 years old to raise, so that he may avenge the Blackfyres for his late bedslave? The theory makes absolutely no sense.

And a theory that claims that Varys and Illyrio are targargen loyalists despite their treatment of Daenerys and Viserys makes sense?

[Bravely Done]

"Does he know? Griff wondered. How much did Myles tell him? Varys had been adamant about the need for secrecy. The plans he and Illyrio had made with Blackheart had been known to them alone." ADWD pg 313

How would JC know Strickland new the plan if he himself didn't know the plan?

[Vympel]

What Bittersteel fought for and what Maelys fought for were completely different. One joined his brother to win him a throne, the other teamed up with 8 other sell swords and their "companies" for plunder and wealth.

That's ridiculous - Maelys was a Blackfyre and he fought for the Iron Throne, his pact with the Ninepenny Kings was struck for that goal. His goals were identical to Bittersteel. 100% identical.

It's as if you guys don't even read the books...

No, you're simply reading things into it that simply aren't there. Nothing about the Golden Company's history as it relates to the Blackfyres rises or falls on Septa Lemore's estimation of the individual trustworthiness of random sellswords. Not every member of the Golden Company is an exiled lord or the ancestor of an exiled lord.

And frankly, your quoting is enormously selective. Dishonestly so, I'd say. I like how you oh so carefully omit the fact that JC was being so poorly received because of the false story about him stealing from the Company, thereby betraying his brothers.

Why would you do that, I wonder? :)

I honestly don't think you know what you're talking about at this point. Jon Connington has served the last three Dragon kings. Aeyrs as hand, Rheagar as a brother in arms, soldier, and friend, and he's raised Aegon for the last 12 years. He served under Blackheart while amongst the GC, and rose to second command.

Jon Connington knows as much about the Targareyns and the GC better than most every character in the series.

Nothing I said is contradicted by JC's service to the Targaryens. Its his service to them that makes him a fool. I'll be glad to see him dead.

[Bravely Done]

And a theory that claims that Varys and Illyrio are targargen loyalists despite their treatment of Daenerys and Viserys makes sense?

Yes, giving them Dragons, ships, armies, aid in various forms be it through sending them Selmy, Tyrion, or Strong Belwas, protection, etc; is evidence that they're loyal to the Targaryens.

[Bravely Done]

That's ridiculous - Maelys was a Blackfyre and he fought for the Iron Throne, his pact with the Ninepenny Kings was struck for that goal. His goals were identical to Bittersteel. 100% identical.

"The Band of Nine was a group of merchants, mercenaries and pirates from the Free Cities who banded together to carve out kingdoms for themselves. This group was the cause of the War of the Ninepenny Kings. They were also known as the Ninepenny Kings."

Sounds nothing like...

According to semi-canonical sources, although King Aegon IV legitimized all his bastards on his deathbed, Daemon waited some time after his father's death before rebelling. Leading to his revolt were his growing resentment at being a bastard and surrounding himself with councilors who urged him to make his claim (mainly his half-brother Bittersteel and his friend Quentyn Ball).^[2] They fed rumors that his half-brother Daeron II was not the son of Aegon IV, but of Aemon the Dragonknight; Daemon, as a Targaryen on both sides and a legitimized heir to the throne, was a logical choice to replace the academic king. Daemon, they said, was a better man and a better king. In the end, it was the wedding of Princess Daenerys to the Dornish Prince Maron Martell that led to the Blackfyre Rebellion. It was said Daemon loved her and she him, so he rose in rebellion when she was denied to him by Daeron. Daemon claimed the Iron Throne as Aegon IV's true heir, and led a rebellion against King Daeron. Daemon attracted many followers with his martial skill and his possession of Blackfyre. He was called the King Who Bore the Sword.

You'll have to point out the similarities.

No, you're simply reading things into it that simply aren't there. Nothing about the Golden Company's history as it relates to the Blackfyres rises or falls on Septa Lemore's estimation of the individual trustworthiness of random sellswords. Not every member of the Golden Company is an exiled lord or the ancestor of an exiled lord.

Aegon Targaryen and Jon Conningtons accounts of the GC don't matter either, I presume? Their concerns and skepticims were very similar to her own.

And frankly, your quoting is enormously selective. Dishonestly so, I'd say. I like how you oh so carefully omit the fact that JC was being so poorly conceived because of the false story about him stealing from the Company, thereby betraying his brothers.

I posted a mere sentence of the GC's thoughts of Jon Connington. Most of what I posted is what Jon Connington fell about the GC, little of it positive.

Nothing I said is contradicted by JC's service to the Targaryens. Its his service to them that makes him a fool. I'll be glad to see him dead.

He's a fool for supporting his best friend? Gotcha.

[Lummel]

Yes, giving them Dragons, ships, armies, aid in various forms be it through sending them Selmy, Tyrion, or Strong Belwas, protection, etc; is evidence that they're loyal to the Targaryens.

As is no doubt also leaving them to beg and sell off the crown jewels in the years before viserys ended up in Pentos and agreed to sell his sister who Illyrio expected to die out on the dothraki sea.

[Dr. Pepper]

Bravely Done, I do have to commend your well-presented theory and evidence, though I condemn your obnoxious insults. We've all read the books, thank you very much.

I do not believe that Varys' ultimate goals are also Illyrio's ultimate goals. I think Varys is using him to reach his end goal, just as Varys uses others to reach his end goal. I do not think Varys or Illyrio are actually Targ supporters. I do not think Aegon is the son of Rhaegar. Here are a few of my reasons for these opinions and why I think you're argument is ultimately flawed:

1. I believe that Varys' most honest words were when he told Tyrion about his hatred of all things magic and his ultimate goal is to set in motion a series of events that will correct the magical imbalance on the world and eliminate blood magic altogether. I think Varys learned of how to do this when he was a thief in the Free Cities sneaking into offices and reading letters and other documents. This is not to say that I believe Varys' plan will work, just that this is what he's working towards.

2. I do not think Illyrio is a Targ supporter. First, what benefit does Illyrio receive by supporting a Targ? He's already wildly wealthy and powerful. He claims to be supporting Targs for financial gain. Ironically enough, the three eggs he gives to Dany would have brought more fortune than any wealth Viserys could have ever offered him if he'd claimed the Iron Throne. And he's old and unhealthy. His years are numbered. He has no heirs, so what's the point unless he's invested in seeing his son with Serra (Blackfyre) seated on the Iron Throne? Second, Illyrio did nothing to assist Dany and Viserys until Dany was 13 and flowered. They were left to roam the free cities for nearly 8 years without financial or educational assistance. If Aegon were actually Rhaegar's son, then Viserys and Dany would be Aegon's heirs. It goes against reason to leave a potential king's heirs penniless and especially uneducated. What if Aegon contracted greyscale and died? What if he just fell of his horse or got a wound to the nipple a la Khal Drogo and died? Someone with a plan as long-term as Illyrio seems to have had wouldn't put all of his eggs in one basket. It's not as though Illyrio needed to publicly offer assistance. He could have kept his assistance secret just like all the other plans were kept secret.

3.That Illyrio does not contact Viserys and Dany until Dany has flowered tells me that she and her brother were just to be pawns. I believe the Dothraki arrangement was made in the hopes of creating chaos in Westeros so that Aegon would be able to swoop in and save the day. Illyrio didn't send any help to Dany once she was with the Dothraki until it was discovered that she hatched 3 dragons. By all calculations, Selmy should have shown up when she was still in Vaes Dothrak or near Lhazar or at least in the early period she was in Qarth.

4. I don't think he had any intention to marry Dany to Aegon until the dragons were realized and Khal Drogo was dead. If he had that intention, it would be incredibly stupid considering the first heir she and Aegon conceived would be called into question. The typical 'waiting' period for widowed ladies to remarry is two years so that the legitimacy of heirs cannot be questioned. There were not two years between the dragons and Aegon planning to go to Dany.

5. Everything Varys said to Kevan is questionable considering at least parts of it was laced with lie. Aegon could not have known what it's like to be hunted. He was thought to be deader than a doornail. Half the major lords of Westeros saw his body and the entire realm knew of how his head was bashed in. There was no questioning that Aegon was dead. No one can possibly be hunting a kid who they all saw wrapped in a bloody bundle with his head dashed in. The only way they could have known there was a switch is if Aegon went around calling himself Aegon, son of Rhaegar, but he didn't. Aegon almost surely did not know hunger. Illyrio, one of the wealthiest men in the series, was his sponsor. There was always food.

These are the major reasons I think your argument is faulty. The minor reasons have been suitably argued and include JC seeing that the Golden Company already knew of their arrival and the foreshadowing for a Blackfyre earlier in the series.

[butterbumps!]

Yes, giving them Dragons, ships, armies, aid in various forms be it through sending them Selmy, Tyrion, or Strong Belwas, protection, etc; is evidence that they're loyal to the Targaryens.

They didn't give her dragons though- they gave her eggs. They in no way thought that anyone would hatch those eggs successfully. For the last 200 years, every time a Targ tried to hatch an egg, another Darwin Award was earned.

Honestly, I think Viserys and Dany were expendable-- they were the visible exiles, so their existence drew attention away from Aegon. Then the Dothraki posed a good opportunity. Varys' MO is that he sows discord; I'm not sure if his personal endgame is to put a Blackfyre on the throne, but for the meantime, it does appear that one goal is to seat Aegon there. Nothing would bring chaos to the realm better than a bunch of foreign, ruthless, rapey horselords. If the Dany-Dothraki plan worked, Aegon could have swooped in, eradicated the foreign invaders, and everyone would accept him as the guy who saved the realm-- they would unify around him. I think they didn't care whether Dany/ Viserys lived or died, but the potential Dothraki invasion would have been a nice bonus just in case it played out.

It seems that Illyrio/ Varys's plans changed after those dragons hatched, however. Perhaps Illyrio does want a Blackfyre-Targ unification through marriage. (Or a Targ-Targ superpower, if you prefer). But an alternate interpretation is that Aegon's side might have wanted to steal those dragons for their own ends. I wouldn't too summarily assume that Varys/ Illyrio are seeking Dany benevolently here.

[Bravely Done]

As is no doubt also leaving them to beg and sell off the crown jewels in the years before viserys ended up in Pentos

How would Illyrio know where there were for certain as they were scampering around the free cities? I'm curious. They were in constant motion, according to Danny, "one step in front of the usupers dogs".

and agreed to sell his sister who Illyrio expected to die out on the dothraki sea.

Why do you continue repeating this despite it not being true? Illyrio didn't sell Danny, Viserys did. And no, he didn't suspect she had the strength to survive amongst 100,000 wild, and brutish Dothraki. This is hardly a contradiction though, and I fail to see it's significance? Mace Tyrell has sold his daughter twice for a throne, but no one would question whether or not he's loyal to Highgarden.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I actually like the OP interpretation of the sun's son and mummer's dragon. Although I do think it refers to Quentyn and Aegon respectively, it could easily be the other way around. Aegon (if real) would be 50% Martell, and Quentyn thought he was a dragon (or could tame one), before he was set straight by Rhaegal.

Mummer's tears, mummer's farce, and other expressions in the series have led me to believe that the word mummer's means fake. So Quentyn being a fake dragon makes a lot of sense. But then you have MMD's sun rising in the west and setting in the east prophecy (obviously Quentyn), and it just looks like Martin is messing with us...

[PatrickStormborn]

How would Illyrio know where there were for certain as they were scampering around the free cities? I'm curious. They were in constant motion, according to Danny, "one step in front of the usupers dogs".

As you've already pointed out, Varys knows everything, including the location of the two Targaryen exiles.

Why do you continue repeating this despite it not being true? Illyrio didn't sell Danny, Viserys did. And no, he didn't suspect she had the strength to survive amongst 100,000 wild, and brutish Dothraki. This is hardly a contradiction though, and I fail to see it's significance? Mace Tyrell has sold his daughter twice for a throne, but no one would question whether or not he's loyal to Highgarden.

That's funny. Maybe it's your reading comprehension that is lacking? Viserys does not sell Dany; Illyrio does. Hence why Illyrio is given slaves and riches for selling Dany, and Viserys is given nothing (Dany II, AGOT)

[butterbumps!]

Why do you continue repeating this despite it not being true? Illyrio didn't sell Danny, Viserys did. And no, he didn't suspect she had the strength to survive amongst 100,000 wild, and brutish Dothraki. This is hardly a contradiction though, and I fail to see it's significance? Mace Tyrell has sold his daughter twice for a throne, but no one would question whether or not he's loyal to Highgarden.

Illyrio: "If truth be told, I did not think Daenerys would survive for long amongst the horselords."

I do not usually take Illyrio's words at face value, but it is very hard to interpret the sum of Illyrio's actions regarding Dany and the Dothraki without questioning just how benevolent Illyrio's schemes for her are. This quote is consistent with the overall plot to use Dany as a pawn for something else.

[PatrickStormborn]

I actually like the OP interpretation of the sun's son and mummer's dragon. Although I do think it refers to Quentyn and Aegon respectively, it could easily be the other way around. Aegon (if real) would be 50% Martell, and Quentyn thought he was a dragon (or could tame one), before he was set straight by Rhaegal.

Quaithe's warning was not a prophecy; she was not looking into the future as she didn't realise that Aegon would turn west instead of east. Therefore she could not have known that Quentyn would attempt to prove himself as a dragon.

[Bravely Done]

They didn't give her dragons though- they gave her eggs.

Which hatched into Dragons.

I.e. he gave them, or Danny rather, Dragons.

They in no way thought that anyone would hatch those eggs successfully. For the last 200 years, every time a Targ tried to hatch an egg, another Darwin Award was earned.

Well, they hatched. And the eggs that hatched(very rare and valuable I might add. Nothing something commenly given away), became Dragons. And those eggs came from Illyrio.

Honestly, I think Viserys and Dany were expendable

I don't think they were treated as if they were expendable. They lived with Illyrio for a year prior to Danny joining the Horse Lords, and Viserys was offered stay until the Dothraki were prepared to cross the narrow sea.

Seems pretty committed to me.

It seems that Illyrio/ Varys's plans changed after those dragons hatched, however.

Their plans changed when Drogo died and she lost her army.

Perhaps Illyrio does want a Blackfyre-Targ unification through marriage. (Or a Targ-Targ superpower, if you prefer). But an alternate interpretation is that Aegon's side might have wanted to steal those dragons for their own ends. I wouldn't too summarily assume that Varys/ Illyrio are seeking Dany benevolently here.

Seems he wanted to marry her, rather than steal her Dragons from her. One of the primary reasons he's now in Westeros is so he can prove his worth to the mother of dragons.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

How would JC know Strickland new the plan if he himself didn't know the plan?

He doesn't. He's wondering what Strickland knows, because Myles Toyne, who made the plans with Illyrio and Varys, is dead. And only those three were in on the planning, as Jon Connington tells us in the passage I quoted.

[Lord Varys]

ADwD somewhat hinted that the Blackfyre thing within the Golden Company ended with Bittersteel (which in turn suggests that most Blackfyre Rebellions happened while Bittersteel was still alive, probably during the reign of Aerys I and the perhaps the first years of Maekar's reign).

The Golden Company is a group of sellswords. You rise and fall within its ranks due to your prowess as warrior and commander. ADwD strongly indicated that pretty much no one particularly cares about 'the Blackfyre cause', or something like that.

Maelys the Monstrous rose to the position of captain-general because he was the most fearsome warrior of his generation (even stronger/bigger than the Mountain!), not because he was a Blackfyre.

We have also to keep in mind that King Aegon V Targaryen most likely tried to unite the houses of Targaryen and Blackfyre. Remember Selmy's weird memory of the troubled reign of Aegon the Unlikely, and the fact that somehow the marriages of his three sons for love made enemies out of (potential) friends. He cannot refer to Westerosi nobility here, since no Lord of the Seven Kingdoms could have dared to be pissed about a Targaryen prince rejecting his daughter, since he could never have expected the king to marry his children to his subjects. And even if he was - there were no real enemies to the Targaryen rule among the Westerosi nobility at this point.

[Bravely Done]

I do not usually take Illyrio's words at face value, but it is very hard to interpret the sum of Illyrio's actions regarding Dany and the Dothraki without questioning just how benevolent Illyrio's schemes for her are. This quote is consistent with the overall plot to use Dany as a pawn for something else.

You're reading into it what you want, and not what's actually on the page. Because she was a weak and feeble girl, he didn't suspect she'd be able to survive amongst the Dothraki hordes, for obvious reasons. They're a people of rappers and hormongers, who are in constant pursuit of war. I suspect most Westerosi noble ladies would suffer under such cirumstances. Has nothing to do with using Danny as a pawn, which is impossible since he wasn't responsible, and improbable since her dying serves no one, and he's never shown the ability nor desire to manipulate Danny into doing anything.

[butterbumps!]

Which hatched into Dragons.

I.e. he gave them, or Danny rather, Dragons.

Well, they hatched. And the eggs that hatched(very rare and valuable I might add. Nothing something commenly given away), became Dragons. And those eggs came from Illyrio.

But no one has hatched dragons in a very long time. I think this is a very weak point in your argument. There is a world of difference between dragons and dragon-eggs. Dragon eggs are basically paper-weights. They have sentimental value but their not useful. Dany got those dragons to hatch, which is something that no one had done successfully for a very, very long time. Anyone who tried hatching dragons was killed in the attempt. It doesn't matter if she found those eggs in a toilet-- without her unique event that hatched the dragons, they would be worthless stones. No one would have foreseen those eggs hatching into dragons.

I don't think they were treated as if they were expendable. They lived with Illyrio for a year prior to Danny joining the Horse Lords, and Viserys was offered stay until the Dothraki were prepared to cross the narrow sea.

Seems pretty committed to me.

If you're hoping for some chance that they might play a role in something that could significantly improve the odds of Aegon taking the throne, I think six months in your manse is well worth it. Illyrio benefitted personally from that exchange, let's not forget-- it staves off Dothraki invasion of Pentos to appease the horselords thusly, and he also received a good many riches from this trade.

Their plans changed when Drogo died and she lost her army.

Well, simultaneously to Drogo's death is Dany's hatching pyre. One might make the argument that we need to isolate the variables here to determine whether the dragons or Drogo's death caused their changes of heart. Given the fact that he repeatedly makes reference to her as the "dragon queen," becomes quite enthusiastic on the subject of dragons, and Tyrion is later asked to write down everything he knows on the subject of dragons, I think it's reasonable to assume that the dragons are the pertinent variable here.