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Jon's "death" free him from his vows?


RoamingRonin

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"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death." Let's say Jon "dies" - his heart stops, no breathing, movement, etc. - but someone revives him. Does he still have to serve on the Wall? The vows are simple: serve until you die. If he does technically die (and clearly he's not wanted) -- who will argue against his leaving?

I'm sure this isn't a radical new theory but the only other discussion I found Googling was in the comments here: http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/.

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We did have a discussion on this though it is now buried under new threads. I think the consensus was that if he legitimately died then he would be free of his vows.

Apparently a king may also command him to leave the NW so Stannis could make it happen. I also think Robb's will making him king of the north would sever his oath to the watch.

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How about this part of the oath "I pledge my life and honor to the Night’s Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.” Pretty clear to me.

It's not clear to me which side of the discussion you're on: his death will or won't free him of his vows?

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The "and all the nights to come" language is a good catch. I didn't think of that. However, the pledge is for his life. So, once the life is taken, does that negate the "all the nights to come language"? It's a classic contract law example of an ambiguity that was not foreseen. This thing would tie up the courts for years if litigated in a modern court system, lol. I wouldn't put it past GRRM to have thrown that ambiguity in there intentionally. If this scenario plays out then there would obviously be characters who would have conflicting interpretations of the oath, causing conflict.

Eta: the NW didnt kill him. It was a faction within the watch, so that's another point that can go either way.

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I think he is released from his vows, but it's important to note that it's only on a technicality. Ultimately it's a choice for him to reaffirm his vow or not, and if he doesn't that speaks a lot about him as a character. I mean, it's like people who pay very low taxes using legal loopholes; they're legally okay, but what does that say about them as a person?

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I think he is released from his vows, but it's important to note that it's only on a technicality. Ultimately it's a choice for him to reaffirm his vow or not, and if he doesn't that speaks a lot about him as a character. I mean, it's like people who pay very low taxes using legal loopholes; they're legally okay, but what does that say about them as a person?

That would depend on the circumstances, wouldn't it? I've argued this for years and seemingly will until the book proves me wrong, but if Jon sees leaving the watch as the best way to save the realm then that technicality might make all of the difference. i.e. Becoming a lord himself and raising an army may be a more effective means by which to defend the realm than begging a bunch of southern lords for prisoners. He's pretty much solely dependent on the success of Stannis right now. I don't see why breaking vows to do the most important job (protecting the realm) more effectively means he is of low character.

I don't think a death would signal an opportunity for an abandonment of duty, but rather offer a legal justification to take action beyond his vows within his own mind. Keep in mind, characters motivations and attitudes change, especially after an event as traumatic as what Jon recently experienced.

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Who knows where its going but the NW is not what is used to be with all of the unsavory characters. I think if they try to kill him, the Wildlings save him and he recovers (with Melisandre's help) he does not owe them much. Only GRRM knows where the story is going but I am in the camp that believes that Jon's future lies away from the Night's Watch - as does Sam's as his trusted confidant.

I guess we will have to wait another 5 years to see.

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If Jon's going to play the lawyer, then sure, a non-permanent "death" would "release" him from his vows.

If he's truly a man of honor, then no. Using squirrely loopholes to wriggle out of obligations by shamelessly manipulating the letter of the law while ignoring its intent entirely is not the way of the honorable person.

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I really don't see it. I can't see him getting out of anything on a technicality. He might walk away on account of them, you know, trying to kill him, or because the Watch has ceased to exist, or something. But I doubt he uses the, "Well I sort of died so I'm a free man" argument.

I would love for the NW to cease to exist temporarily with a Mel POV chapter focusing on the wildings messing people up while her and the Queen's men resurrect/protect Jon.

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He might be free of his vows, but I don't think he'd leave. Jon would most likely stay in the Night's Watch, for honor's sake, just like his father. He took the vow, and even if he "died" and came back he'd still consider the oath not broken since he's still living.

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I really don't see it. I can't see him getting out of anything on a technicality. He might walk away on account of them, you know, trying to kill him, or because the Watch has ceased to exist, or something. But I doubt he uses the, "Well I sort of died so I'm a free man" argument.

:agree: . I don`t see Jon abandoning NW just because he had been killed and then revived...I don`t think he would watch on that from that perspective

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