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Ominous throwaway lines (spoilers)


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I just thought that Tyrion seeing a "dragon" whilst passing out was just his imagination as he had recently been thinking/dreaming about them.

If you're referring to the half-seen shape in the fog reference, he's awake before and after - unless you mean a different event?

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For Tyrion's bit - I definitely thought of Drogon once I read about him hearing leathern wings overhead.... but who knows? It could be Drogon, or a small wyvern-like beast, or a bat, or a pterodactyl.... I think it was simply important for the moment, and has no relative significance afterwords.

For Jon - To add more moments where he expresses unnatural strength...

- When he escapes from the Wildlings south of the wall. Even he was surprised at how he managed to escape by mounting the horse one handed, while slicing through attackers, with an arrow wound.

- He has a dream where he is fighting through hordes of Wights scampering up the wall, where he is killing them so fast that he can't tell who they were until they fall. (also has a glowing red sword in his possession for this dream)

- He takes on 3 fellow recruits/peers of the Night's Watch by himself, in defense of Samwell. (granted his training far exceeds theirs... but still)

---Overall his inner monologue reminds me of what little we've been presented with Rhaegar, the way he analyzes situations, or watches people interact... very solemn.

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My personal favorite:

“You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

Martin, George R.R. A Game of Thrones. (p. 75). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

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My personal favorite:

Quote

“You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

Martin, George R.R. A Game of Thrones. (p. 75). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

(my bold)

Maybe, instead of sewing all through winter, she'll be doing 'needlework' all through winter. It might be very useful!

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Kill the boy and let the man be born

The following is info about Jon being supposedly more powerful at the wall and supporting examples of this:-

1. When Melisandre pats Ghost, Jon calls him.

"Ghost," he called. "To me"

The direwolf looked at him as though he were a stranger.

Jon frowned in disbelief. "That's...queer."

"You think so?" She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. "Your Wall is a queer place, but there is a power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it."

I am not a wolf, he thought...

So Ghost looks at Jon like he's a stranger and Jon denies that he is wolf - maybe just to mean he can't be won over as easily as Ghost but maybe it means something more?

Melisandre also tells Jon there is power here for him to use.

2. She tries to get him to join with her to make more power and they talk about shadows..

'You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall."

Ygritte was kissed by fire. Jon's now kissed by the moon (maybe the opposite of the sun?) and has a shadow 20ft tall (there as another vision about a tall shadow but I can't remember it properly).

3. When the 3 NW men have their heads impaled on stakes

'Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather's head and wrenched it violently from the ground. "Pull dow the other two." he commanded, and four of the crows hurried to obey. ... To the men struggling with the spears...'

I find it strange that a 16yo can pull a spear out of the frozen ground while 4 men struggle with 2 spears (assuming 2 men apiece). Could he be more powerful (physically as well as other types) because of the Wall?

Jon also lifted Alister Thorne by his throat off the ground with one hand, again rather impressive considering he's so young. But there are contradictions to this hidden strength as he finds it hard to withstand Mance's blows and even Emmetts i think. So maybe it's just some writing continuity errors on George's behalf, or maybe Jon only gets this strength when his emotions are spiking....

- When he escapes from the Wildlings south of the wall. Even he was surprised at how he managed to escape by mounting the horse one handed, while slicing through attackers, with an arrow wound.

- He has a dream where he is fighting through hordes of Wights scampering up the wall, where he is killing them so fast that he can't tell who they were until they fall. (also has a glowing red sword in his possession for this dream)

- He takes on 3 fellow recruits/peers of the Night's Watch by himself, in defense of Samwell. (granted his training far exceeds theirs... but still)

What if this is literally stating that Jon must be killed to truly become the powerful being, Melissandre thinks he is capable of becoming? The boy, Jon, may die but the man(something else?) Jon will arise, harder and stronger (to borrow a paraphrase).

The whole series seems to be about death and rebirth (symbolic, fake, actual/alive and actual/re-animated) [obviously this list isn't complete]:

1. Symbolic

the Hound/Sandor

Khaleesi Dany/Dragon Dany

Theon/Reek

Arya/No-one

Sansa/Alayne

kingslayer(ultimate swordsman)/Jaime(maybe Goldenhand the Just)

2. Fake

Bran

Rickon

Davos

Ramsay Bolton

3. Actual/alive

Tyrion (Rhoyne drowning)

Aeron Greyjoy (drowning)

Patchface (drowning)

4. Actual/re-animated

Dondarrion

Cat/Lady Stoneheart

Gregor/Robert Strong

Please feel free to add more.

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Am I the only one who thinks the thing with the leathery wings in ths Sorrows is likely a large bat? Boring I know but far more likely than wyverns or Drogon or stone dragons, oh my. Is there any evidence that the mystery beast was a dragon other than having leathery wings? I'm curious about it now and my copy of Dance is lent out to my uncle in VA so I'm at everyone's mercy on this subject for the time being.

Found two references to bats:-

1. Rumour says Sansa turned into a creature with bat-like wings and fly away (so obviously Westerosi know of bats)

2. When Bran (through Hodor) explores the underground cave complex he finds a cavern in which giant bat skeletons are hanging from the stone ceiling (though why they would die in this position and remain hanging there raises even more questions)

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Does anyone think it suspicious that Sam is the only NW (that we know of) to both, kill a white walker and go under the Wall through the weirwood gate, while also being one of the few NW to have said his vows in front of a weirwood?Could saying vows to the Old Gods bestow some extra protection on the NW?

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Drogon's return

So, why did Drogon return? In the text, Barristan states "The fighting pits will remain closed," said Selmy. "Blood and noise would only serve to call the dragons." (aDWD2:447)

But I wonder if something else called to him. Throughout the chapter of Dany, in which he returned, Dany was feeling anxious and unhappy about the re-opening of the pits (aDWD2:176-190). She remembered the prophecy of her promised betrayals ('three treasons shall you know'), she felt the Meerenese were lying when they called her mother ('I am not your mother she might have shouted back. I am the mother of your slaves...'), she found no pleasure in the jousting dwarfs ('Dany's smile was faint and forced'), she had to insist that no lions be loosed on the dwarfs, ''for a heartbeat she felt almost sorry' for Robert in the manner of his death, 'Dany turned her face away' when the boar killed Barsena, then:-

'The smell was more than the queen could stand. The heat, the flies, the shouts from the crowd...I cannot breath. She lifted her veil and let if flutter away. She took her tokar off as well...

"Ser Barristan, will you see me safely back to my garden?"...

"One will die, or the other will," said Dany. "And the one who lives will die some other day. This was a mistake."...

"It was my floppy ears they cheered, not me. Take me from this abbatoir, husband." She could hear the boar snorting, the shouts of the spearman, the crack of the pitmaster's whip.' (aDWD2:186-187)

I wonder if Drogon came because his mother was upset, not because of the noise and the blood. He sensed her disquiet, her disgust and her abhorrence of the spectacle and came to her.

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And some other thoughts:-

Aeron, thinking of himself after his drowning:-"No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could ... nor memories, the bones of the soul"(AFFC:27ppb)

Later, when thinking about how he's been reborn he thinks, "Bones, he thought. The bones of the soul...The truth is in our bones, for flesh decays and bone endures..."(AFFC:29ppb)

Maybe a reference to the bones in the Winterfell crypts?

Aeron says "No mortal man could frighten him..."(AFFC:27) though Euron frightens him. Later, when Euron is trying to persuade the Ironborn to seek the dragons, someone disagrees saying the first storm will scatter them across half the earth. 'A smile played across Euron's bue lips. "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last..."(AFFC:495) Interestingly, Balon's (Theon's dad) earlier death is blamed on the Storm God by Damphair (AFFC:22) "The Storm God cast him down." the priest announced.'

So, what is Euron - mortal?, follower/priest of the Storm God? seer (blue lips from drinking the warlock's wine)?

I've been thinking about your post for a few days and rereading about Euron. I definitely think Euron is in league with the Storm God. You are giving some good evidence here.

He states himself that he is the storm. We suspect he killed Balon, and we are told the Storm God cast him down. After the victory feat on the Shelter Islands he stands naked in front of the window and the wind blows in all around him as if summoned. He seems to be able sail long distances very quickly as if the wind is at his command.

I think Aeron calls him a godless man because he is not a man of the Drowned God. He may be a priest of the Storm God or even a wight. If he is a wight, this could be why Dany sees a corpse at the prow of a ship.

Aeron is not afraid of any mortal man but he is afraid of Euron. Like Melisandre, a contrast is drawn between Euron and mortal men. I'm starting to see dead people - everywhere!

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<snip>

Aeron, thinking of himself after his drowning:-"No mortal man could frighten him, no more than the darkness could ... nor memories, the bones of the soul"(AFFC:27ppb)

Later, when thinking about how he's been reborn he thinks, "Bones, he thought. The bones of the soul...The truth is in our bones, for flesh decays and bone endures..."(AFFC:29ppb)

Maybe a reference to the bones in the Winterfell crypts?

<snip>

5. When Melisandre reveals Mance's glamour to Jon.

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamours are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones...."

IMO, these quotes are foreshadowing that bones are going to play a further role in this story. I'm guessing the Winterfell crypt bones are probably the biggest source of bones around. Fortunately, most of the bones are restrained/protected/? by iron swords, except for a few crypts. Unless someone decides to remove more swords (because some group need weapons?). The question is, if the Stark ancestral bones rise, whose side are they on?

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Here's another Jon Snow one:

It's from Sam in AFFC, when he's been down in the library all night right before Jon sends him and Gilly and Aemon to Old Town. He's talking to Sam about what Stannis will do to Mance Rayder, and whether or not they'll burn him for his royal blood:

"Pyp says that Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery."

"Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from the others. King's blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. it's nonsense. Mance's blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown or sat a throne. He's a brigand, nothing more. There is no power in brigand's bood."

What if Jon is the sleeping dragon. Mance's blood is no more royal than Jon's? What if Melisandre becomes convinced that Jon is AA and uses Stannis blood to wake unJon, the sleeping dragon?

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What if Jon is the sleeping dragon. Mance's blood is no more royal than Jon's? What if Melisandre becomes convinced that Jon is AA and uses Stannis blood to wake unJon, the sleeping dragon?

'Mance's blood no more royal than Jon's' ha-ha

There is something special about Jon. While I don't want to seen an unJon, I wonder if he'll be 'reborn' with either special abilities of his own or it might trigger the awakening of an actual dragon. Stannis doesn't mind sacrificing people for his own ends so it will be interesting to see if he's willing to sacrifice himself 'for the good of the realm'. Dany (and Viserys before her) were always warning against waking the dragon, maybe it actually means something serious rather than a catchphrase from a pathetic person (Viserys not Dany).

We have the prophecy about 'sleeping dragons', as well as the NW vow 'the horn that wakes the sleepers' and the folklore that the Horn of Joramun will make the giants rise from the ground (or something like that). IMO the sleepers and the giants refer to sleeping dragons. Maybe something significant like killing the LC or a Stark (or both in Jon's case) at the Wall might be the trigger to waken them.

I wonder if the 'horn' refers to an actual physical object. I know Victorian says his wife(or Euron - sorry can't find my book) says they gave him 'horns' to kill his wife. I found this a very puzzling statement at the time - I wasn't sure if it referrred to his hands or a reason to kill his wife.(We also have the saying in the real world 'on the horns of a dilemma' - which means either alternative is difficult/unpleasant). Neither of these meanings refers to an actual horn. Maybe the 'horn that wakes the sleepers' refers to some event that wakes the sleepers (not the NW - something that is actually asleep - like a dragon!).

(Crackpot theory alert) IMO there's reasonable chance there is a sleeping/hibernating dragon at the Wall (or in one of the forts) and another at Winterfell. The dragon at the Wall (and it is nowhere as big as the Wall) might be the magic that stops the Others from crossing. If it wakes and flies away it might take its protective magic with it. Due to the severe cold this dragon might actually be an 'ice dragon' which may have helped build the wall in the first place or it may simply be a normal dragon, either of which has turned to 'stone' because of the length of time it has been sleeping (and the cold in the case of a fire dragon). I think this dragon might awaken because of something that happens in the NW (maybe killing the LC).

I think another dragon might be sleeping in the deepest reaches of the Winterfell crypts which it made by burrowing its way down into the earth. I don't see why the Starks would have made such an extensive crypt system because it would have taken years/decades to dig out. The dragon might have picked that spot because of the hot springs which would keep it warm during its sleep. The 'There must always be a Stark in Winterfell' might mean that when there's no Stark at Winterfell and the closest one is 'killed' it awakens. Climbing its way out might dislodge numerous swords and possibly release Stark 'spirits' (or wights, skeletons, who knows?).

Jon (and Bloodraven) are unique - both of Targaryen (if you believe R+L=J) and Stark blood. If Targaryen blood confers a special relationship with fire dragons, maybe Stark blood confers a special relationship with ice dragons (if they exist). Jon might be the only (mobile) person to be able to control both. Or a 'superwarg in training', Bran, might be able to control them.

If Jon 'awakens' after some magic ritual, I wonder if he will be 'fire' and possibly AA, or 'ice' or both (water??-ha ha)?

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Just started another re-read and noticed this in the Ned chapter after learning about Robert's accident. He's talking with Barristan here:

Ser Barristan seemed old beyond his years. "I have failed my sacred trust."

"Even the truest knight cannot protect a king against himself," Ned said.

According to Ned, a true knight can not do this. But, when Jaime has his very first meeting as the LC, one of the first instructions he gives to the KG is that they need to do exactly this.

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Just started another re-read and noticed this in the Ned chapter after learning about Robert's accident. He's talking with Barristan here:

According to Ned, a true knight can not do this. But, when Jaime has his very first meeting as the LC, one of the first instructions he gives to the KG is that they need to do exactly this.

Ned the idealist (no wonder he came unstuck) and Jaime the realist (because he knows the small, horrible details of Aerys reign). Ned does come across as quite black and white while Jaime is all shades of grey.

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Ned the idealist (no wonder he came unstuck) and Jaime the realist (because he knows the small, horrible details of Aerys reign). Ned does come across as quite black and white while Jaime is all shades of grey.

Ned was talking about abuse of power by an adult king. Jaime was talking about protecting a child from his own excesses.

Context is everything.

About Ominous passages, I find Varys assertions about "for the Children", while not exactly ominous, highly spooky.

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Ned was talking about abuse of power by an adult king. Jaime was talking about protecting a child from his own excesses.

Context is everything.

About Ominous passages, I find Varys assertions about "for the Children", while not exactly ominous, highly spooky.

Fair enough on the context comment.

The 'for the children' line is strange - it's surely can't be for the children he trains and mutilates as his spies so is it for the children of Westeros or the dead children of Rhaegar?

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im confused about the kingsblood thing. melisandre wanted kingsblood for a sacrifice to wake a stone dragon or something. she was gonna kill stannis son to do it. then when they find more kingsblood(mance and his son) they dont use them for the dragon. instead she didnt even want to burn them at all. did her intentions change when she arrived at the wall?

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im confused about the kingsblood thing. melisandre wanted kingsblood for a sacrifice to wake a stone dragon or something. she was gonna kill stannis son to do it. then when they find more kingsblood(mance and his son) they dont use them for the dragon. instead she didnt even want to burn them at all. did her intentions change when she arrived at the wall?

Melisandre wanted to burn Edric Storm, Stannis' nephew, not his son. And no one know if she'd burn Aemon, or Dalla's baby, or Mance, so if you've got a buddy around with Kingsblood, you get em the hell out of there.

----------------------------

Also maybe she realized in here nightfires that Dalla's baby and Aemon were already out of her reach, and Stannis and Jon had another use for Mance. Sorry Mel, you gotta wait for your Yule Log for few more weeks...

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