Jon Snow marries Daenerys Targareyen

[Faint]

All those who diminish the possibility of this plot development seem to do so mostly on grounds that they wouldn't like it. I'm not entirely sure that's how one should go about determining the likelihood of it occurring.

[Lyanna Stark]

2. Daenerys has three dragons. She's not going to let Aegon take two wives -- she'll be taking two husbands.

Well, I am glad I am not the only one who thought of this possibility. Especially since Tyrion likens Dany to "Aegon the Conqueror with teats".

So bet on second husband apart from Jon? Tyrion probably?

And Aegon schmaegon, he won't last long. :)

All those who diminish the possibility of this plot development seem to do so mostly on grounds that they wouldn't like it. I'm not entirely sure that's how one should go about determining the likelihood of it occurring.

People tend to be like that with a lot of things tho. Especially if a certain relationship doesn't suit them despite what is in the text.

In this case it seems to be a lot because people just don't like Dany.

[Errant Bard]

Sorry for that, just backtracking a bit to answer one specific accusation. Carry on.

Judging by your responses to this and other threads you seem to be running under the assumption that nobody would have any interest in supporting Jon

Your judgement is lacking then. In this thread, and even in that other threads I'm saying he would always keep a kernel of supporters, and yes, maybe even rally a good part of the north around him if only by virtue of being the brother of those who would rise to power, you know. However I'm trying to put that into perspective, notably when it relates to a potential dynastic marriage, with other options Dany would have, considering the current geopolitical situation of the north. (note my first post in this very thread: I'm not saying there wouldn't be sex, or even possibly a vegas marriage. It the whole idea of it being a thing of convenience that's a bit mind boggling.)

What you are doing is saying that because Martin could make him the new northern overlord, then he will, and everything else written, including rejection by the watch or the Boltons/Dusti/Kastarks or the existence of siblings (obviously voiding Robb's will) or becoming undead or breaking his oath... or the fact that in a much stronger position Aegon will have been slain, doesn't matter.

I guess that it's not necessarily an incorrect meta-reading of the story, Jon being clearly an implementation of the farmboy hero archetype, but if we go past those expectations, the story as actually written has not given indications that it would unfurl that way, quite the contrary, and so I think it is illogical and deluded to insist that because something can happen then it will happen, against all odds.

Well, I am glad I am not the only one who thought of this possibility. Especially since Tyrion likens Dany to "Aegon the Conqueror with teats".

So bet on second husband apart from Jon? Tyrion probably?

Victarion, as we already agreed in that other thread, no?

[Faint]

Well, I am glad I am not the only one who thought of this possibility. Especially since Tyrion likens Dany to "Aegon the Conqueror with teats".

So bet on second husband apart from Jon? Tyrion probably?

And Aegon schmaegon, he won't last long. :)

I think this is a case of extending the analogy several levels too far.

Daenerys might very well parallel Aegon I, something I very much believe, but by no means does that signal that Jon is the equivalent of Visenya or Rhaenys (if anything, he parallels other Targaryens far more).

Likewise, just because Daenerys is similar to Aegon I does not mean that she also need have two simultaneous spouses.

[Lyanna Stark]

I think this is a case of extending the analogy several levels too far.

Daenerys might very well parallel Aegon I, something I very much believe, but by no means does that signal that Jon is the equivalent of Visenya or Rhaenys (if anything, he parallels other Targaryens far more).

Likewise, just because Daenerys is similar to Aegon I does not mean that she also need have two simultaneous spouses.

No, she doesn't have to, but it's an interesting possibility to ponder for a couple of reasons:

* The Targaryen inheritance has since the Dance of Dragons always been male centric with women dead last

* There is a trend in Westeros where a lot of strong women are emerging into positions of power, or potential positions of power

* During a war, lots of men tend to die, meaning women have to step up and are left running things (similar effects have been seen after WW1 and WW2 for instance, if we are looking at examples in real life that are close by)

* Dany has herself realised the negative effects of being a female ruler and that should she marry, she is likely to slip into the default role of a Queen, i.e. she needs to breed and that's it, while leaving the ruling for me.

* This theme has been presented in various female POV, from Cersei, Dany, Sansa, Arianne and Asha: women who do not want to be bartered off like a piece of meat, but want autonomy.

* Given this situation, would it be a strange thing if Dany, should she gain power and traction in Westeros, could begin reforms with regards to women's position in society, perhaps starting with being a role model herself? The only thing she needs to do is draw a line from what has happened to her to what is happening to almost all women out there.

Given this, by no means does she need to have two husbands, but it would be completely groundbreaking for the Targaryen polygamy to be used that way, since it never has before. It's always been in a way a symbol of complete male dominance, since not only is the man the ruler, but he is so incredibly manly he has not one, but two wives.

[Lummel]

I also think there is a good chance of Daenerys taking two husbands because of the political situation in Westeros. The country is so divided and fractured that two husbands will give her a better chance of tieing the realm together.

[Faint]

It's always been in a way a symbol of complete male dominance, since not only is the man the ruler, but he is so incredibly manly he has not one, but two wives.

I actually imagine the reason Aegon I was married to both his sisters had more to do with keeping the bloodline going than any sort of assertion of his dominance over them. And it isn't as if the Targaryens haven't had their fair share of strong women, Visenya and Rhaenys included, Shiera Seastar, Alysanne of course, and so forth.

In any case, my main opposition to the idea centers on how difficult it would be to write such a thing and make it at all convincing; my often stated refrain that Daenerys is "the child of three," so she will have three husbands; and the fact that it doesn't really jive with any foreshadowing, prophecies or anything of the like to make me warm to the idea.

[Lyanna Stark]

I also think there is a good chance of Daenerys taking two husbands because of the political situation in Westeros. The country is so divided and fractured that two husbands will give her a better chance of tieing the realm together.

Indeed.

Plus the fact that having dragons should almost automatically put you on the top of the pile of contenders, regardless of lineage.

There is also a nice "symmetry" should she take Jon (Stark) and a Lannister (Tyrion) and finally do what Tyrion thought nobody could: heal the rift between Stark and Lannister in marriage. Of course, it would be in a completely different way than Tyrion ever imagined.

I just can't believe that all the women struggling against patriarchy and towards power and autonomy is chance. Especially since one of the obvious "heroes" (Dany) is female and struggling against these exact things.

[Faint]

I also think there is a good chance of Daenerys taking two husbands because of the political situation in Westeros. The country is so divided and fractured that two husbands will give her a better chance of tieing the realm together.

Provided she could convince two men to go with the idea, which be quite the feat in itself. For starters, whose children would inherit first?

My read on the situation is that the best option, provided that Jon is established as a Targaryen, is to have him married off to Arianne Martell, which hopefully smooths things over with Dorne (in light of what has happened to Elia and Quentyn). That one political act will serve to bind the Martells to the Targaryens to the Starks.

Also, one important little caveat not being discussed here is that Daenerys pretty much assumes that she cannot bear children (even if that is not likely to be true). One would think that would play quite a role in her thinking.

[Lyanna Stark]

I actually imagine the reason Aegon I was married to both his sisters had more to do with keeping the bloodline going than any sort of assertion of his dominance over them. And it isn't as if the Targaryens haven't had their fair share of strong women, Visenya and Rhaenys included, Shiera Seastar, Alysanne of course, and so forth.

In any case, my main opposition to the idea centers on how difficult it would be to write such a thing and make it at all convincing; my often stated refrain that Daenerys is "the child of three," so she will have three husbands; and the fact that it doesn't really jive with any foreshadowing, prophecies or anything of the like to make me warm to the idea.

"Strong women" yes, but very, very limited.

Aegon's wives may have been strong women, but what sort of power did they wield without him? He was the de factor power.

Even good Queen Alysanne only ruled like she did because her husband allowed it. And the first Dance of Dragons made sure that female Targaryens would forever lose out on inheritance. This of course makes it double interesting that the main scion of House Targaryen left is a woman, in a rather similar situation to Aegon the Conqueror.

The prior Targaryen women may have been clever, resourceful, proud, good etc. but they never had a chance at ruling in their own right. That was always reserved for a man. This is the reason why Dany could prove to be completely revolutionary, should she be allowed to rule Westeros (with or without the Iron Throne).

Provided she could convince two men to go with the idea, which be quite the feat in itself. For starters, whose children would inherit first?

The oldest. If Dany is the ruler in her own right, her oldest child will inherit, regardless of who the father is. Do you see now that you are still thinking patrilineal and not matrilineal? :)

This is the difference Dany could make.

[Faint]

You know, truthfully speaking, I'm so convinced Daenerys will die before the end of the story, that I do tend to regard this whole issue as rather academic. She seems such an ill fated and fatalistic character that I can only ever really regard her in that context. That said, I do think she is going to have a hell of a ride before she gets to that point.

Birth dragons? Check.

Free the slaves of Essos? Check.

Conquer Westeros? Check.

Save humanity from the Others? Check.

It goes back to the same thing in the end. She's Aegon I re-born or Alexander the Great with breasts, if you will. The bright star that burns brightest but shortest at the same time.

[Lyanna Stark]

You know, truthfully speaking, I'm so convinced Daenerys will die before the end of the story, that I do tend to regard this whole issue as rather academic. She seems such an ill fated and fatalistic character that I can only ever really regard her in that context.

Awwh don't say that Faint. :crying: :crying:

I can see what you mean about her being a bit of an Alexander the Great figure. Whether or not she will "over reach" herself I suppose we will see. Aegon the Conqueror managed to live on after conquering Westeros so there is precedent for her with regards to that at least.

It does seem that there is a strong theme of balancing in ASOIAF, so her drive, pride and motivation will need to be tempered by wisdom in order for her not to over reach, perhaps?

[Lummel]

Provided she could convince two men to go with the idea, which be quite the feat in itself. For starters, whose children would inherit first?...

She the Queen, so marriage to her offers a share of supreme political power. She's said to be the most beautiful woman in the world, so an attractive prospect in anycase. And as Boccaccio said one woman can satify a man, but no one man can satisfy a woman, well the double marriage would solve that problem. Then there's the chance of partaking in political healing which would appeal to the angels of the better natures of one or two men.

...The oldest. If Dany is the ruler in her own right, her oldest child will inherit, regardless of who the father is. Do you see now that you are still thinking patrilineal and not matrilineal? :)...

Quite and if Daenerys' committed to marrying subsequent children into leading houses then as one of her husbands you could be sure that your descendants would be major powers in the realm for generations to come. It's not a bad deal. Where do I sign up :leaving:

[ARYa_Nym]

I get the point but I'm sorry Tyrion is beneath Dany. & from Quaithe's warning and the Moqorro prophecy about him snarling amongst the dragons I think he's going to turn on her or do something that will be bad for her.

I do think that the second one in the bride of fire sequence is a Greyjoy but I don't think Victarion or Euron will last that long because either Theon or Asha seems poised to triumph over them in the end.

[Lummel]

I get the point but I'm sorry Tyrion is beneath Dany...

Was it really necessary to draw attention to his diminutive stature? :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I get the point but I'm sorry Tyrion is beneath Dany. & from the Quaithe prophecy and the Moqorro prophecy about him snarling amongst the dragons I think he's going to turn on her or do something that will be bad for her.

Snarling at or snarling amongst tho? I doubt Tyrion will just turn lovely and sweet while serving Dany for life, sort of thing, but he could still be useful to her in other ways, for instance in proving a foil for Euron or someone else who tries to claim her dragons or her person for themselves. I wonder if Tyrion has it in him to be that loyal, or if he wants to? He seems to be far more or a loose cannon and to clever to just meekly go along with another person's leadership with voicing a lot of dissent.

[ARYa_Nym]

Was it really necessary to draw attention to his diminutive stature? :)

I didn't mean it in that way. He's beneath her in the same way that Jorah is. She's out of their league.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Well, before Jon and Dany can get married, either for dynastic reasons or for love, (1) they need to be on the same continent, and (2) they need to be considerably less than 1,000 miles from each other. I'm sure Dany will get to Westeros eventually, but I reckon that by the time she does the Others will already be at or south of the neck and there won't be too much time for matchmaking.

Then besides getting Jon and Dany close enough to kiss, there are lots of other obstacles to them getting together: (1) as far as anyone knows, Jon's the bastard of the Usurper's Dog, not a Targ; (2) he has taken a vow not to wed, have children, hold lands, etc. (although I think the Night's Watch will cease to exist as a result of the fallout from the attempt on Jon's life); and (3), the big one – at this time an alliance with the North is of little advantage. The North is currently a frozen wasteland full of starving people, soon to be full of starving people, hostile supernatural beings and their undead army. The fighters of the North are currently committed to Stannis (although imo they couldn't care less about the Iron Throne) and while Stannis is alive and has an army he's not going to allow another pretender to the Throne make any alliance by marriage with a Northern Lord (or Lady). Certainly he's not going to allow Jon to be declared King in the North even if Robb's will appears.

Dany will also be occupied conquering the South for some time while fighting off suitors, crazy Queens, Tyrells and a couple of fierce little kitties.

We also have to find out just how dead Jon is and how he'll be revived – Daario notwithstanding, Dany might not want to bed an actual zombie.

I favor the general theory that Jon and Dany will wind up as antagonists, although I'm not sure how. It may be that they're both opposing the Others, but differ in strategy; it may be that Jon doesn't welcome the return of Targs and their dragons, especially if they're dragging Tyrion Lannister along; it may be that the Heretics posting in the ADWD thread are right and Jon is the Ice Dragon set to do battle with the fire dragons, etc., etc. Whatever. I also expect one or both to die – so no happy-ever-after for these two.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

may be that Jon doesn't welcome the return of Targs and their dragons, especially if they're dragging a Lannister along; it may be that the Heretics posting in the ADWD thread are right and Jon is the Ice Dragon set to do battle with the fire dragons, etc., etc. Whatever. I also expect one or both to die – so no happy-ever-after for these two.

Jon and Tyrion were quite cordial before the forced marriage to his half sister. I can't remember if Jon is aware of it or not. If so does anyone recall his reaction?

[ARYa_Nym]

Snarling at or snarling amongst tho? I doubt Tyrion will just turn lovely and sweet while serving Dany for life, sort of thing, but he could still be useful to her in other ways, for instance in proving a foil for Euron or someone else who tries to claim her dragons or her person for themselves. I wonder if Tyrion has it in him to be that loyal, or if he wants to? He seems to be far more or a loose cannon and to clever to just meekly go along with another person's leadership with voicing a lot of dissent.

He's snarling amongst all of them. To me it implies that he's wreaking havoc. His speech to Aegon for example probably fueled the fire. First Aegon was thinking that he needed Dany then after his little talk with Tyrion he got it into his head that he's the only dragon that Westeros needs.

Don't get me wrong Tyrion can be funny and entertaining but he's a devious fiend at the same time IMO. Plus, he's a little Tywin 2.0.