From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[brashcandy]

Previous thread (Rethinking V)

This is a thread dedicated to constructive and critical analysis of Sansa's character and arc in the ASOIAF series. Insightful and text-based arguments/critiques are always welcome, as well as serious questions. The thread is based on the original Rereading Sansa project. Find links here.

[brashcandy]

Daidalos posed some interesting questions at the end of the last thread for consideration:

Something that I've been considering is the extent of Sansa's identity crisis in AFfC. Before I started reading these threads, I didn't really think along those lines. I figured that Sansa was aware of her mask that she had to wear, but that she had no problem distinguishing her true self from the assumed persona of Alayne Stone. Perhaps she gained some perspective from her new vantage point, but Alayne's voice didn't threaten to silence Sansa's own. Now I'm unsure.

So, the question that I pose is this: to what extent is Sansa now Alayne? On that point, under what circumstances is the Alayne-persona more prominent (and I mean internally)? Alternatively, when does Sansa emerge? Finally, when do the two identities come into conflict?

As for the last of these questions, I would say that the conflict is most prominent around the Lord Protector, as he is himself two individuals: Petyr Baelish to Alayne Stone and Littlefinger to Sansa (if it was the other way around, it might be even more twisted than it already is).

Other questions on the same topic could include:

• What significance, if any, is there to the naming of some of Sansa's chapters as "Alayne"?
  
• What thoughts does Sansa think that it would be inconceivable for her to think had she not worn the guise of Alayne?
  
• To what degree are Sansa-as-Alayne's actions instinctual? To what degree are they conscious?
  
• Does Sansa like herself as Alayne? What does Sansa-as-Alayne think of her previous self?
  

(On an entirely unrelated note... I really like the name "Alayne." One wonder what the real Alayne was like, Petyr's mother.)

[brashcandy]

My brief response from the last thread:

Hmmm, difficult questions :) I would say that the Alayne persona is dominant throughout AFFC, but we still see "Sansa" peeping through in some of her thoughts and actions. For example, when she notes that Mya Stone would be pretty if she dressed like a girl, and when we see her intrigued by the realisation that Lothor likes Mya, that's all Sansa right there. I don't think Alayne will ever silence Sansa, but she will speak for Sansa for the time being. Alayne seems to be more prominent and to come into conflict with Sansa when she is around Sweetrobin. She has to mother the boy, something we know Sansa Stark isn't comfortable with, but which Alayne has mastered. She also has to take a hard line when the maester is concerned with SR's illness. This is when Alayne comes to the forefront and thinks of the bigger picture.

As for the last of these questions, I would say that the conflict is most prominent around the Lord Protector, as he is himself two individuals: Petyr Baelish to Alayne Stone and Littlefinger to Sansa (if it was the other way around, it might be even more twisted than it already is).

Yes, this is a good point too. She's gotten better at her performance around him, as evidenced by how she greets him in the final scene, but he's still capable of making her feel unsettled and disturbed. She's playing the daughter role in order to please him, but he wants the "Sansa" persona to perv on too.

Other questions on the same topic could include:

What significance, if any, is there to the naming of some of Sansa's chapters as "Alayne"?

I think just to highlight that she's now fully in performance mode. We're not meant to be "meeting" Sansa, but Alayne, and to see the concerns Alayne has and how she deals with them. Of course this doesn't mean that Sansa never appears.

What thoughts does Sansa think that it would be inconceivable for her to think had she not worn the guise of Alayne?

Hmmm... I'm drawing a blank right now. Perhaps the one about father and I having larger concerns? Maybe someone will come up with examples, but overall, besides thinking that Alayne is bastard brave, most of Alayne's thoughts seem to fit Sansa. Oh, also maybe her flirtatious behaviour with the knights LF is meeting with in the final chapter.

To what degree are Sansa-as-Alayne's actions instinctual? To what degree are they conscious?

Right now, I'd say she's fairly conscious about Alayne's actions. For example when she thinks of closing her eyes, but notes that she's now Alayne Stone and bastard brave.

Does Sansa like herself as Alayne? What does Sansa-as-Alayne think of her previous self?

Yes, I think she does. But although she's getting used to her new persona, we see that she hasn't quite yet identified with bastardy.

.

[Lyanna Stark]

kittykatnits,

Excellent write up of the Serpentine steps section. :) All Sansa's interactions with Sandor are so easy to misread or just miss out on lots of details. I picked up early on that he was drunk and made inappropriate comments, but it's not until you actually look at the entire sequence that you can see how he's really being very physical for no actual reason apart from wanting to.

Oh and in vino veritas, definitely. I have a tendency to be that way inclined myself on occasion.

[Kittykatknits]

I'm reposting this since it got posted late on a Friday night just before the thread closed.

As I'd mentioned, all that was happening between them on the serpentine steps didn't really click with me until brashcandy and Lyanna Stark told me how to look at it. Since then, I've been rereading several scenes with this approach and its made a huge difference in helping me understand what is actually happening.

So, Sansa is quickly moving down the serpentine steps, lost in thought about Dontos and going home (I love that she things of Florian taking her home when she actually reels in to the Hound). From the description, we know that Sansa is moving quickly in an effort to get back to her room unnoticed, not necessarily paying attention to what may be around her. Then, all the sudden Sandor lurches out. We know that she isn't paying attention but from the way he stops her, we can tell that he deliberately moved out from the doorway to stop her. At this point, Sansa doesn't just bump in to him, she "caromed into him and lost her balance". In other words, she ran in to him at a high speed, likely with a fair amount of bodily contact as it was enough for her to start falling down. Sandor reaches out and grabs her wrist before she actually falls down - but notice that he doesn't let go. He says something to her, laughs, and then says something else. They talk for awhile - and he's holding on to her the entire time. She tries to wriggle free, but he makes a point of maintaing that contact with her. At this point, he shakes her in an effort to find out where she has been but still does not let go. Sansa answers:

"The g-g-godswood, my lord," , she said, not daring to lie. "Praying...praying for my father, and...for the king, praying that he'd not be hurt."

So look at how she says this, not so much at what she is saying. Sansa is pausing, trying to think of what to say, in other words, it is taking a bit for her to get all those words out. And Sandor is still holding on to her. He replies to that comment before finally letting go. At this stage, he's made a conscious decision not just to grab her to keep her from falling but to maintain that contact. He doesn't need to, she's not going to trip and she's not trying to run away, but he's still keeping a form of physical contact between them. The only reason why is because he wants too.

Now he starts rambling away about her looks and her singing songs but notice what he's doing the entire time. He's swaying while standing still, he's reeling, almost falling, in other words he's really fucking drunk. His inhibitions are down, he's not going to be as guarded as he otherwise would be. That helps to explain why he is so comfortable commenting on her body, making a sexually loaded comment at her, and touching her the way he does. He's got some liquid courage working on him right now.

Now, they start moving back to her room, with him following right behind her. He's close but not touching her until they meet Blount at the bridge. Here, Sandor lay a "heavy hand on her shoulder". He's not just doing a light touch, he's gripping her and we don't read anything about him letting go either. He's keeping that contact with her again while he talks to Boros. Afterwards, they again resume walking towards her room, while he is telling her about his House. The, all the sudden, Sandor does this:

A hound will die for you but never lie to you. And he'll look you straight in the face." He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. "And that's more than little birds can do, isn't it? I never got my song."

From the context of what we he is saying her, combined with the fact that he is reaching out to touch her, we can figure out where he is standing. Sandor, based upon his statement, is looking down at her making eye contact. Then all the sudden, he reaches out to cup her jaw and raising her face to look at him while also bringing the conversation back to the song, a sexual metaphor. So, picture that scene for a moment and think about how close he would have to be for to cup her face like that. Now picture how he has her is holding on to her face so that they are looking at each other. He's doing this the whole time he's talking about taking a song from her, he never lets go. Has the way he is holding on to her at this point made you think of anything yet? ;)

Here's a hint: :kiss: :kiss:

So, hopefully this clarifies that scene you a bit. As I said, what's unsaid is just as big as what is actually said in this scene. Adds a whole new dimension to it.

[Kittykatknits]

kittykatnits,

Excellent write up of the Serpentine steps section. :) All Sansa's interactions with Sandor are so easy to misread or just miss out on lots of details. I picked up early on that he was drunk and made inappropriate comments, but it's not until you actually look at the entire sequence that you can see how he's really being very physical for no actual reason apart from wanting to.

Oh and in vino veritas, definitely. I have a tendency to be that way inclined myself on occasion.

I share that tendency.

The big thing about this scene is that he's not just drunk but there is no PTSD element here either. You can say that he's in a good mood with his inhibitions down and lots of alcohol to give him courage. You match his words with what he is doing and it gives a new take on the scene. It gives more insight in to his feelings about her that some of the comments he later makes about her.

It's very subtle though. It's through Sansa's POV, who we know is still very innocent at this time, she's still young. So, she isn't picking up on it, it's not a strong part of the story. You have to really think about what is going on here.

One more thing that I'd forgotten to point out, when he first stops her, he grabs on to her wrist but when he finally stops holding on to her, he lets go of her arm. He's not just holding on to her, he was stroking her arm.

[Caro99]

Daidalos, great questions about alayne/sansa. It's really hard to predict what may happen in the end with these 2 identities till we read the next book I think because well, in Feast Sansa was basically isolated with these small bunch of people and the one she could open up to was always telling her that she ought to be alayne and that lies are crucial to survival and that being sansa stark at present was dangerous. Besides seeing how well LF adapted this style of having 2 identities into his life. So I can see why it would be understandable for sansa to give into alayne (mind you, of course there are some benefits to being alayne though). But in the sixth book sansa will finally be able to live in a less constricted enviroment and it shall be intresting to see if she opens up to others as she takes a break and drops her charade, or if LF's sly unsaid threats of what would happen if she does this really took effect. I think that to see sansa again either mya or randa, brienne, the blackfish, sandor or jaime would be crucial for this since they can be a reminder to sansa that she is not alone, unlike what she felt up in the eyrie with LF.

About if sansa likes alayne, I think she does. I like her too as she is now, and I think we won't be seeing sansa descend down the path that ultimately destroyed many of LF's once good qualities and humanity. Whatever happens alayne will now be a part of sansa I think, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing I guess. The political lessons can come in handy down the road, along with the knowledge that love outside of marriage and the fact that a comley man can be a good partner will I think be an important event for sansa when she has to pass that crossroad and see what she truly wants for herslef in the end.

There are little things in alayne which I think sansa has to watch out for though, like the 'father and I have bigger concerns' line. I think that what will define the persona of alayne later on in a big way will have to do with robin arryn, and then we shall see how much of an effect LF has had on sansa. It's a good thing though that w do get the sense that sansa still mistrusts him and wishes she could be somewhere else far away, and is of course not liking his creepy advances. I hope she realizes she can stop being his pawn soon since I don't see him being that troubled about sansa being his peer and then turning him into her pawn before his ultimate doom. And even then thankfully I can't see sansa feeling happy about that, meaning she didn't loose her compasion, emphaty and humanity in the end..

I would like to touch other of the points you mentionedn but my poor thumbs are tired of tipping on my phone, so I'm sure someone else will due a better job explaining them. Brash already started it..

And about the serpentine steps anaylysis, really quickly, i liked it a lot and iit just made my heart melt even more for sandor to realize he was stroking her arm. I can just try to imagine his thoughts then. *sighs deeply* I think that sansa has by now also sort of realized this in those nights when she stays awake thinking of him. After 2 books and myranda's pillow talk I can see sansa coming to the same conclusion that we did: that sandor didn't let go off her for the simple reason of not wanting to. This could sort of be prominent later on with sandor only wanting her for herslef, even with no winterfell claims to have :)

[Dr. Pepper]

kittykatknits, I'm a little confused about what you are suggesting we are supposed to be seeing with the scene on the serpentine steps. I went back to the other thread to see how this analysis of the scene (great analysis, by the way!) came about but I couldn't quite figure it out. What was the original question that warranted this analysis? Is this about Sandor being tender or Sandor being assault-y and inappropriate? Does this have to do with Sansa's unkiss memory or Sandor's later conflicted thoughts about her? I just don't know how I'm meant to interpret the scene without knowing what question warranted the analysis.

[Pod The Impaler]

In response to Queen Cersei's comparision (which is locked and unquoteable now):

I don't buy is that Arya is more like Cat and Sansa more like Ned. Of course, Arya is not all like Ned, and Sansa not all like Catelyn. Both are hybrids (and Arya is quote like Lyanna, it would seem, someone she never knew). It's is not just a matter of superficial looks, it is a matter of a few other things as well.

First of all, there is the way they act feminine: Sansa is aligned with the Southron ideals of a lady, and far from being superficial, this is a matter of her own will, her decisions about herself. She excels at it, but this is not just natural talent, it is something she works on to the exclusion of all else. Arya, is more akin to a northern woman with northern manners and of womanhood which are more pagan, more fierce and combative. Again, Lyanna is an example, but the Mormont women also. And beyond that, wildling women such as Osha and Ygritte. It's a different set of values, a different temprament. (Dorne is an odd exception though; more egalitarian, though also highly cultured.)

Ned Stark, even tempered to say the least. You do not see him in a wild rage - at least not within the confines of the story. In this, Sansa may seem more like him, since you don't see her rage either. But Ned Stark has a sort of cold-blooded kill-or-be-killed side as well, a warrior ethic. Sansa does not have a warrior ethic to speak of - not that she would have been kept from it, but rather she kept herself from it.

Catelyn is passionate, protective, even at times wrathful, but when it came right down to it, she cannot bring herself to kill in retaliation or as an act of war - well, until after she is killed herself. Jaime Lannister was in the end released, not slain, though Catelyn had all the reason in the world to see him to his grave. I can see Sansa making the same choice, but I cannot see Arya doing that - she'd have cut Jaime's throat, gladly. Arya definitely has wrath, and ruthlessness - but who is the source ? (Perhaps both, perhaps neither and it is just her wolf nature.)

On the other hand, Sansa has a natural gift for disarming conflict with what she says, like Catelyn; while Arya seems to always escalate conflict. I don't know if the latter is exactly like Ned, but he had a certain way of not backing down from a foe, of refusing to consider compromise or moral retreat that Arya seems to take after.

When it comes to using realism or idealism, I think that's a push: both Ned and Catelyn have moments of pragmatism and suspicion, but also times where their own honour and idealism put them at a disadvantage with regard to a ruthless & dishonourable foe. Both children seem to have a certain sense of honour and idealism as well, though quite different from each other's.

Sansa and Arya are both interesting and complex characters; so much of their development is unique, they really are beyond being just shadows of their parents.

Now, back to the point I originally made: Sansa may have aspired to be Catelyn Tully 2.0, though it may not have completely suited her, and I think she has done some serious reconsidering of that despite how she acts in view of others. Also Catelyn 2.0 is definitely what Peter Baelish sees and wishes to create (for himself to enjoy). But I think he has not reckoned with (or cannot see) the ways in which Sansa is a Stark too. Pardon the pun but I think one day her wolfish nature may be rediscovered and bite him in the ass.

[Lyanna Stark]

Dr Pepper,

It was initially a response to someone who claimed that Sandor had only "brotherly" type feelings for Sansa. I think the Serpentine steps scene shows that this is decidedly not the case.

@Pod,

It's interesting to note that the character in the text who tells us that Sansa is exactly like her mother is Cersei. She is also the same person who claims that Sansa is stupid, repeatedly. I'd say that we should take anything Cersei says with a huge grain of salt. Or, a bucket of salt. The second person who wants Sansa to be Cat is Littlefinger, and he has highly personal reason for those.

Note that both of these judgements are based on surface, and not any real judgement of character. Now Sansa's entire story arc so far has been to show her that surface is often just a lie, and that you need to understand what lies beneath. In many ways it helps Sansa to look like Cat, since people will think her just a pretty face with no substance, a younger more stupid version of her mother, as it were. (And remember that Cersei thought Cat was a grey little mouse for not kicking Jon out, so she doesn't have a high opinion of Cat.)

[Kittykatknits]

kittykatknits, I'm a little confused about what you are suggesting we are supposed to be seeing with the scene on the serpentine steps. I went back to the other thread to see how this analysis of the scene (great analysis, by the way!) came about but I couldn't quite figure it out. What was the original question that warranted this analysis? Is this about Sandor being tender or Sandor being assault-y and inappropriate? Does this have to do with Sansa's unkiss memory or Sandor's later conflicted thoughts about her? I just don't know how I'm meant to interpret the scene without knowing what question warranted the analysis.

Lyanna Stark has the right of it here. There is no direct conversation or question you can look at. There was an assumption made that his feelings towards Sansa are only brotherly. I had replied this isn't the case and gave some examples of why I did not believe that to be true. One of those was the conversation on the serpentine steps. Most discussion about that scene comes from what they are saying to each other so I pointed out to focus on what is usaid, in other words what they are actually doing. Another regular posted then asked me to explain further as she wasn't picking it up. So, put together that post as a way to analyze Sandor's actions WRT to Sansa.

The comments on her body and the song as sexual metaphor are noticed by many but are really only a small part of what Sandor is doing.

Hope this helps!

[Lyanna Stark]

The comments on her body and the song as sexual metaphor are noticed by many but are really only a small part of what Sandor is doing.

To be honest it's still quite oblique and I think it's meant to be. It doesn't really stand out until you add all the components together. If you are just looking at the one line or some of the things he says it could easily be interpreted as throw away lines, or that he's just drunk, but once you add everything up it really does take on quite a different character.

It's the same with the rooftop scene at the Red Keep, which a lot of people just dismiss with "He is just being an arse to Sansa for the sake of being an arse" but in fact he's already there, he's looking out over the fires and he's scared of going out in that to fight. He knows he may very possibly die tomorrow.

In both those scenes he is really close to her as well, and this follows their interactions throughout ever since AGOT when he first puts his hands on her shoulders. There's a strange amount of touching: whether it's Sansa mistaking him for Ned, her reaching out to him when he tells her the story of his burns, him kneeling in front or her and dabbing her lip, lifting her out of bed, saving her from the riot, grabbing her wrist, etc etc.

I've argued previously that the Brienne/Jaime relationship has a similar, physical component. Brienne takes care of Jaime when he's had his hand cut off, they're tied together on the horse, she has to clean up his shit, and then of course the famous bathhouse scene at Harrenhal. It adds a level of intimacy and almost earthiness to it. I mean neither Sansa/Sandor or Brienne/Jaime have only positive physical contact. Some of it is, some of it is not, but it does add that extra dimension.

Hence why it is interesting to look at body language, position wrt each other when it comes to these four characters. Just like the Serpentine steps scene gives a lot of clues as to what Sandor is beginning to feel for Sansa, Jaime's dream where he is naked with Brienne in the cave gives some clues as to what he is beginning to feel for her, I think.

I know a lot of people just go "I don't get SanSan". Well, in that case, do they also not "get" Jaime/Brienne? It is built up in a very similar way using similar components.

The dichotomy of naive honour vs jaded cynicism, beauty vs beast, they both come to see something to value in the other despite first impressions, both relationships have a decidedly physical dimension, both relationships act as a catalyst for change in the participants. And lastly, both relationships are growing very gradually and without being overt.

I'd say if you lined these characters up and asked them about it, they'd either deny their feelings or try to avoid the question completely. Poor Brienne is trying so very hard to only think of Renly while she was in the bathtub (it did make me giggle that she was naked in the bath while fantasising about Renly who then became Jaime. Brienne you bad bad girl!) but it just ended up being Jaime instead.

[Kittykatknits]

To be honest it's still quite oblique and I think it's meant to be. It doesn't really stand out until you add all the components together. If you are just looking at the one line or some of the things he says it could easily be interpreted as throw away lines, or that he's just drunk, but once you add everything up it really does take on quite a different character.

Hmm, I think I get lost in my Sandor/Sansa bubble at times. I think it's really obvious but that could be because I've read their interactions several dozen times by now.

It's the same with the rooftop scene at the Red Keep, which a lot of people just dismiss with "He is just being an arse to Sansa for the sake of being an arse" but in fact he's already there, he's looking out over the fires and he's scared of going out in that to fight. He knows he may very possibly die tomorrow.

I think this could apply to many of his scenes. The Inn and his speech under the tree are two other good examples of this. Same with his travels with Arya, many focus on their interactions without realizing what else he is saying. Many don't consider what exactly it is he is really saying.

In both those scenes he is really close to her as well, and this follows their interactions throughout ever since AGOT when he first puts his hands on her shoulders. There's a strange amount of touching: whether it's Sansa mistaking him for Ned, her reaching out to him when he tells her the story of his burns, him kneeling in front or her and dabbing her lip, lifting her out of bed, saving her from the riot, grabbing her wrist, etc etc.

After her father dies, I'm thinking of all the incidents of touch for Sansa. She doesn't shy away or tolerate it in the same way that she does Tyrion or LF, she's very accepting of it. She's very accepting of contact from him. Hmm, I think she comes closest with this with Ser Sweetrobin but not nearly to the same degree.

I've argued previously that the Brienne/Jaime relationship has a similar, physical component. Brienne takes care of Jaime when he's had his hand cut off, they're tied together on the horse, she has to clean up his shit, and then of course the famous bathhouse scene at Harrenhal. It adds a level of intimacy and almost earthiness to it. I mean neither Sansa/Sandor or Brienne/Jaime have only positive physical contact. Some of it is, some of it is not, but it does add that extra dimension.

Hence why it is interesting to look at body language, position wrt each other when it comes to these four characters. Just like the Serpentine steps scene gives a lot of clues as to what Sandor is beginning to feel for Sansa, Jaime's dream where he is naked with Brienne in the cave gives some clues as to what he is beginning to feel for her, I think.

I know a lot of people just go "I don't get SanSan". Well, in that case, do they also not "get" Jaime/Brienne? It is built up in a very similar way using similar components.

The dichotomy of naive honour vs jaded cynicism, beauty vs beast, they both come to see something to value in the other despite first impressions, both relationships have a decidedly physical dimension, both relationships act as a catalyst for change in the participants. And lastly, both relationships are growing very gradually and without being overt.

I'd say if you lined these characters up and asked them about it, they'd either deny their feelings or try to avoid the question completely. Poor Brienne is trying so very hard to only think of Renly while she was in the bathtub (it did make me giggle that she was naked in the bath while fantasising about Renly who then became Jaime. Brienne you bad bad girl!) but it just ended up being Jaime instead.

I saw you ask this question in another thread. I think it's an age thing, Brienne is older even though the age difference is exactly the same. That's the only explanation I can think of. Surprises me to some extent, because I think Brienne is much closer to GOT Sansa than Sansa is at this point. The relationships are very much foils to each other.

Hmm, you just made me realize that Brienne's fantasy is the same as Sansa's dream. They start out with Tyrion/Renly but someone else appears. Sansa resists naming Sandor while Brienne tries to bring back the safe image of Renly. Both aren't quite ready to confront what this means yet.

[Lyanna Stark]

Hmm, you just made me realize that Brienne's fantasy is the same as Sansa's dream. They start out with Tyrion/Renly but someone else appears. Sansa resists naming Sandor while Brienne tries to bring back the safe image of Renly. Both aren't quite ready to confront what this means yet.

Brienne is just about 18 at the beginning, I think, and Jaime is well past 30 (I think the age difference in both cases is 15-16 years). I mean sure, Brienne is an adult, but the age difference is still there and in some ways she is AGOT Sansa with a sword.

Yes, I noted quite a few parallels, both big and small, when rereading the Jaime/Brienne chapters from ASOS and AFFC (although tbh I am not too keen posting more in the other thread since apparently posting anything about Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa parallels got me told off for being "rude to other posters". :dunno:

However if it would be of interest, I can try and collect what was posted in the other thread(s), rework it an post it here. It's quite interesting since it contains bigger themes like Jaime's and Sandor's roads to perhaps not redemption, but finding their own moral compass to smaller things like the BWB thinking they caught the Kingslayer but got Sandor instead.

[Dr. Pepper]

Thank you kittykatknits and Lyanna Stark. I had assumed the question sparking the analysis was completely different and it made me quite confused about what opinion you held for Sandor. Confusion cleared up! :)

[mythsandstuff]

Yes, I noted quite a few parallels, both big and small, when rereading the Jaime/Brienne chapters from ASOS and AFFC (although tbh I am not too keen posting more in the other thread since apparently posting anything about Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa parallels got me told off for being "rude to other posters". :dunno:

However if it would be of interest, I can try and collect what was posted in the other thread(s), rework it an post it here. It's quite interesting since it contains bigger themes like Jaime's and Sandor's roads to perhaps not redemption, but finding their own moral compass to smaller things like the BWB thinking they caught the Kingslayer but got Sandor instead.

I would like to read this :)

[Kittykatknits]

Brienne is just about 18 at the beginning, I think, and Jaime is well past 30 (I think the age difference in both cases is 15-16 years). I mean sure, Brienne is an adult, but the age difference is still there and in some ways she is AGOT Sansa with a sword.

Yes, I noted quite a few parallels, both big and small, when rereading the Jaime/Brienne chapters from ASOS and AFFC (although tbh I am not too keen posting more in the other thread since apparently posting anything about Jaime/Brienne and Sandor/Sansa parallels got me told off for being "rude to other posters". :dunno:

However if it would be of interest, I can try and collect what was posted in the other thread(s), rework it an post it here. It's quite interesting since it contains bigger themes like Jaime's and Sandor's roads to perhaps not redemption, but finding their own moral compass to smaller things like the BWB thinking they caught the Kingslayer but got Sandor instead.

I could find out Jaime's exact age pretty quickly but I'm very lazy. But, I do remember that he was just a bit younger than Ned at the start of the series. He was 31 or 32 at the time. He'd have been about a year or so older than that when they meet. So, it's the same age difference.

As an aside, I'd love to read that post if you care to put it together. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Just copy pasted a bullet pointed list from the other thread (without real explanation, hopefully I'll get to that later tonight, but I have a couple of things that need doing first!)

They are both loyal to House Lannister at the start of the series, with everything that entails

They were both introduced as killers of children

They were or are both at some point part of the Kingsguard

They are both maimed

They both interact with someone who at first glance is their almost complete opposite

This interaction plus outside events work as a catalyst for change and towards looking for their own moral compass

Allegiance shifted from House Lannister (Jaime defies Cersei completely when sending Brienne after Sansa and the Hound is "his own" and was looking to join Robb)

They both name their horses (Stranger and Honour)

They are both captured by the BWB (well, Jaime is about to be, and in fact when Sandor was captured Gendry thought it was the Kingslayer)

They both operate under a sobriquet that isn't entirely flattering and can be argued is a part of the identity they show to the public

They're both disillusioned by knighthood

They were both formidable fighters

So far for the Jaime/Sandor comparison. I think you can made a similar comparison for Brienne and Sansa, but the main characteristic that Sansa and Brienne share is that they are stuck in a naive world view where knights are honourable, people are either Evil or Good, noblemen are, well, noble etc etc. Jaime and Sandor work as foils for this, but at the same time, neither Jaime nor Sandor come out as they were since the interactions have affected them. As of AFFC, Brienne and Sansa are both more jaded, they're on their guard constantly, while Jaime and Sandor are both trying to come to terms to various degrees with what they've done and try and find some sort of moral compass.

More later on how the relationships parallel, although I've written some already. Need to find that Foreshadowing thread and copy paste some stuff from there. :)

[David Selig]

Ned Stark, even tempered to say the least. You do not see him in a wild rage - at least not within the confines of the story. In this, Sansa may seem more like him, since you don't see her rage either. But Ned Stark has a sort of cold-blooded kill-or-be-killed side as well, a warrior ethic. Sansa does not have a warrior ethic to speak of - not that she would have been kept from it, but rather she kept herself from it.

Catelyn is passionate, protective, even at times wrathful, but when it came right down to it, she cannot bring herself to kill in retaliation or as an act of war - well, until after she is killed herself.

Catelyn killed one of the clansmen when her party was attacked on the way to the Eyrie. And Jinglebell, of course, though she wasn't exactly sane at this moment.

It's interesting to note that the character in the text who tells us that Sansa is exactly like her mother is Cersei.

When did Cersei say this?

[Lady Lea]

I just wanted to say (a really really late) thank you to Kittykatknits for taking the time to explain that scene! :)

Brilliant analysis!