From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Lyanna Stark]

Good post on Myranda there A... :)

Interesting comments on Myranda's look as well. It's true that we normally see women described as either ugly or beautiful and that with the looks come either an alignment or non alignment with regards to their inner selves. (Brienne being ugly but beautiful "on the inside" as it were, while Cersei is almost her exact opposite, all surface but only ugly insides).

However, Myranda struck me more as more buxom and rather pretty than anything like Fat Walda or Lollys who seem described more as fat and repulsive. But it's a good catch and definitely something to look out for come the next novel! Interestingly, Fat Walda also seems rather keen on bedding Roose Bolton (ugh :ack: ) so maybe Myranda is supposed to be a similar type of buxom happy sexy woman? Who knows.

(- Hey, Randa I'm having sexy dreams about this man who took a song and a kiss and left me with nothing but a bloody cloak! - Omg, seriously Alayne? Has he ravened you yet? Have you ravened him? Don't be the first to raven him, you'll look needy! aka Basically the typical teenage silliness she missed out on while being tortured by Joff in KL)

:rofl: the mental images are amazing.

But yes, I do hope and think that Sansa will have female friends in Myranda and Mya who she can use as sounding boards and get some proper "teenage girl" time in, with all that entails

2. She talks about sex. A LOT. Whether it be her own sex life (husband/Marillion) with detailed descriptions of her husband dying inside her (ew, also surprising how untraumatised she is by this), Mya's (the squire) or the size of Littlefinger's finger she seems to have no scruples discussing as she so unashamedly puts it 'fucking'. Sansa/Alayne is blushing like crazy all the time, and she's just going on and on and on ('Do you know what goes on in the marriage bed?' etc.) And she makes comments about Alayne's breasts and the general value of breast size wrt breastfeeding.

Interestingly, Myranda seems to talk of Geopolitics and sex, so it seems likely that she'll introduce Sansa to both these but with a different slant than Littlefinger. It also means that Sansa could potentially get information from other sources than Littlefinger about what is going on in the world, since he up until the Gates of the Moon seem to have filtered what Sansa gets to hear.

However, if Myranda continues in any way like she started, she's definitely going to be "that" female friend that makes you neck a whole bottle of wine and then encourages you to go snog some bloke while too inebriated to stand. And then makes you tell her all the details afterwards. :lol:

[Winter's Knight]

However, if Myranda continues in any way like she started, she's definitely going to be "that" female friend that makes you neck a whole bottle of wine and then encourages you to go snog some bloke while too inebriated to stand. And then makes you tell her all the details afterwards. :lol:

...and when you tell her that he was an awful lay, she responds with "What did you expect? He's bloody gay".

Not that I'd know or anything... :leaving:

[A...]

...and when you tell her that he was an awful lay, she responds with "What did you expect? He's bloody gay".

Not that I'd know or anything... :leaving:

You have no idea how this made me laugh coming as it did a full 10 seconds after I had finished reading the whole Nedbert thread from start to finish :lmao:

Also: Randa would so say that.

[Mladen]

The first part of MArgaery, QOT`s influence on Sansa

I am free of Joffrey. I will not have to kiss him, nor give him my maidenhood, nor bear him children. Let Margaery Tyrell have all that, poor girl.

For the first time, when Sansa mentioned Margaery Tyrell it is in the context of compassion to her. Sansa`s feeling sorry for the girl she even hadn`t met, knowing what truly monster Joffrey is. Someone would think that after everything she survived, there`s no sympathy or compassion in Sansa. This has proven otherwise. Sansa is still that sweet, innocent child, who means no harm to anyone, well except of Lannisters, of course…

The invitation seemed innocent enough, but every time Sansa read it her tummy tightened into a knot. She’s to be queen now, she’s beautiful and rich and everyone loves her, why would she want to sup with a traitor’s daughter. It could be curiosity, she supposed; perhaps Margaery Tyrell wanted to get the measure of the rival she’d displaced. Does she resent me, I wonder? Does she think I bear her ill will...?

Poor Sansa…Her position was determined long time before this, and now, in the city where no one wishes her well, she was given a kind gesture. Unfortunately for Sansa, Margaery and QOT had different plans, but I believe that this Margaery`s move was incredibly smart, because she gained, maybe not a friend, than someone who wishes no evil to her…Sansa`s naiveté has no limits…

Even so, she must accept. She was nothing now, the discarded daughter of a traitor and disgraced sister of a rebel lord. She could scarcely refuse Joffrey’s queen-to-be.

Can`t be more clear, she knows her place.

Sansa was finding it hard to walk and talk and think all at the same time, with Ser Loras touching her arm. She could feel the warmth of his hand through the silk.

God save us all, if it wasn`t so sad, it would be so funny. I sometimes believe that she had learned nothing all that time in KL. She still has crush on Loras…

“You would know that more than most, poor child. You’ve had your share of grief, I know. We are sorry for your losses.” – Queen of Thorns

Was this quite honest? Did QOT actually spoke the truth? Were they really sorry? Maybe not, but who cares…You have a frightened, tortured girl who lost everything and you are polite and kind to her. This was well done. They sympathized with her and made her more comfortable so they could find out what they really want. I actually think that Sansa learnt here how powerful kind words are (she used those many times in Vale).

Sansa’s mouth opened and closed. She felt very like a puff fish herself.

Here Sansa found out what smart woman is. I truly believe that QOT, just by having that speech about Tyrells showed Sansa how women can be smart and clever and not use their beauty in those purposes. Women take what they want on the oldest way, and QOT showed her that women can be smart, not just by widening their legs at the right time, than actually can speak and say what they want and have to…

“I want you to tell me the truth about this royal boy,” said Lady Olenna abruptly. “This Joffrey.”

Sansa’s fingers tightened round her spoon. The truth? I can’t. Don’t ask it, please, I can’t. “I... I... I...”

And finally, Sansa realizes why she was invited, all the courtesy and talking. She was brought for information. This is very peculiar about this scene. Everything was well prepared. Loras coming for Sansa, Margaery`s warm welcome, QOT rapidly speaking about her family. Sansa was cornered in perfect way. How to deny information to the woman who was so kind to you? To someone you actually like. She saw in Margaery a big sister, someone she can rely on. Marriage conspiracy made Sansa even thinking of Willas. This was masterpiece in Game. Sansa learnt a lot from here…To make alliance, you have to give something. I hope that in the future we will see how this scene impacted on Sansa…Especially on her friendship with Myranda Royce.

Second part will come when I have more time...I hope you like this...

[mythsandstuff]

Good post on Myranda there A... :)

However, Myranda struck me more as more buxom and rather pretty than anything like Fat Walda or Lollys who seem described more as fat and repulsive. But it's a good catch and definitely something to look out for come the next novel! Interestingly, Fat Walda also seems rather keen on bedding Roose Bolton (ugh :ack: ) so maybe Myranda is supposed to be a similar type of buxom happy sexy woman? Who knows.

Well, y'all know we try harder, right? *eyeroll*

On the serious, it might be interesting to look eventually at the ways women's bodies are portrayed, besides the whole nipple thing.

[A...]

Well, y'all know we try harder, right? *eyeroll*

On the serious, it might be interesting to look eventually at the ways women's bodies are portrayed, besides the whole nipple thing.

Mmmm, well we do have the infamous 'teats' reference...

[mythsandstuff]

Mmmm, well we do have the infamous 'teats' reference...

I was actually thinking about the ways Brienne's body was described when I typed that - especially her hips and thighs. There's also a noticeable (or maybe I'm glossing over?) lack of bellies, which seems unrealistic, but that may just be me trying to find myself in the text.

[Kittykatknits]

I was actually thinking about the ways Brienne's body was described when I typed that - especially her hips and thighs. There's also a noticeable (or maybe I'm glossing over?) lack of bellies, which seems unrealistic, but that may just be me trying to find myself in the text.

I think this would be a great topic to bring up in the Reading Women in Westeros thread.

[brashcandy]

Well I'm certainly glad this idea has fostered so much interest! :) Just a note on further submissions so that we don't end doing an analysis someone else chose:

Lollys -- Dr. Pepper

Cersei -- Kittykatknits

Lysa Tully -- Lady Lea

Catelyn -- Lyanna Stark

[A...]

I was actually thinking about the ways Brienne's body was described when I typed that - especially her hips and thighs. There's also a noticeable (or maybe I'm glossing over?) lack of bellies, which seems unrealistic, but that may just be me trying to find myself in the text.

I'm thinking corsets, since they were strapped into them from age 10 or something, I mean I realise these weren't sadistic Victorian corsets, but still the gowns are pretty much constructed to be laced the hell out of at the waist - see Cersei visiting the High Septon in her old dress, complaining of how the lacing from 15 years ago was too tight.

[brashcandy]

Sansa's interest in Ellaria Sand also goes against people's reading of her as bratty and shallow. She seems to genuinely see bravery and justified pride in Ellaria, and doesn't condemn her for being bastard born. It seems she views her more with fascination than anything like distaste.

Good point. I think it's important that she's making these acquaintances at an early age and seeing how women like Ellaria are still able to have a functioning, productive relationship outside of the bonds of matrimony. The easy openness of Oberyn's and Ellaria's relationship is contrasted with the stiff formality that marks Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. Society might place value on marriage, but if there is no love or affection between the man and woman it will be extremely hard to make such a union work. Further, the recognition that there's something about Ellaria that draws the eye is also another example of Sansa being able to appreciate unconventional types of beauty and not dismissing the person as irrevelant because of such. This seems to be where Cersei often falls down in her assessment of others - relying on shallow notions of beauty in order to judge another person's worth or relevance.

[Alissa]

Gods, this thread is moving way too fast for me, lol

It's Tyrion who describes them coming back to the Red Keep though, and it's from his point of view we get that Sansa had her arms wrapped tightly around Sandor.

certainly, yes. Sorry, I didn't express myself very well there :) I didn't mean to imply that she misremembers the ride back with Sandor, but there's something not quite right about the way she thinks about the entire riot scene, imo. It's why I think Sandor didn't embellish his account of the riot to make his deed look more heroic.

(And on a side note: he really is proud he saved her from the mob, but why shouldn't he? I also thought it curious that these are the two incidents he tells to Arya: the one time he feels he didn't fail Sansa since during the riot is the only time he actually fights for her and saves her; and the one time he fails her completely when he takes the song and botches his rescue attempt, though of course he completely changes this part when he talks to Arya)

[Tagganaro]

Speaking of Randa, anyone else convinced she already has guessed Sansa's identity? She seems smart, LF must be concerned about her for a reason, and Sansa/Alayne's only major slipup comes when Randa brings up Jon Snow becoming LC of the NW.

Blurting out Jon Snow!?!? has to get Randa's suspicions going...Where would Alayne have ever met him? How would she even know his name?

[brashcandy]

3. She is very plain spoken in general and seems shrewd and intelligent. She keeps her father's household in order (just like Alayne does for LF) and does it competently and well. She's very well informed about the goings on in Westeros both in political terms (Siege of Storm's End vol 2.0/Riverrun yielding), gossipy terms (Harry's bastards/Lyn's married life/Bronze Yohn's melee) and weird trivia (Jon Snow is a bastard and he's LC of NW!). The one thing she doesn't seem to be aware of is Lothor Brune liking Mya Stone... Why should this be - she clearly knows pretty much everything else there is to know about the girl and she seems a good and shrewd observer of people - why shouldn't she notice Lothor?

I think this relates to an important point we've noted before on how Sansa, due to her own experiences and her position as Alayne, is now noticing things which other people (notably Littlefinger) might consider to be insignificant or trivial. Randa Royce might like to gossip, but overall her interests relate to finding a well connected husband to suit her status and provide her with a comfortable life. She's concerned with the same world as Littlefinger is, and people like Mya and Lothor might be fun to gossip about once in a while and to exploit, but ultimately not to waste much thought about their interests and motivations. Her own dismissal of Sansa as a potential rival because she's a bastard and her breasts don't count reflects this attitude.

Sansa, on the other hand, recognizes and is actually interested in the fact that Lothor likes Mya. She is able to value Lothor's desire as legitimate and worthy of attention, and I think could pay off for her in the end with the development of a genuine friendship and Lothor switching his allegiances.

[brashcandy]

Speaking of Randa, anyone else convinced she already has guessed Sansa's identity? She seems smart, LF must be concerned about her for a reason, and Sansa/Alayne's only major slipup comes when Randa brings up Jon Snow becoming LC of the NW.

Blurting out Jon Snow!?!? has to get Randa's suspicions going...Where would Alayne have ever met him? How would she even know his name?

I don't think she suspects. She's naturally curious about Alayne, but not in the sense of suspecting she's really someone else as yet. She seemed surprised that Sansa know Jon's name, but doesn't dwell on it as being important.

[Lady Lea]

Ok ok so here’s Lysa. I hope it turned out ok!

Lysa is the daughter of Hoster Tully, widow of Jon Arryn, as highborn a lady as they get, and Sansa sees her marry… Littlefinger, lord of a tiny piece of rock and some sheep. For love. She’s very open about the fact that she loves this lowborn man and is not ashamed of it at all. She would have married him even when he didn’t have any important titles.

The day after the wedding Lysa tells Sansa her story and compares her marriage to Arryn to Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion. Sansa sees how bitter and unhappy Lysa is about her life, and how much happier she is now that she finally has control over her life. Sansa even notes during the wedding feast how happiness seemed to make Lysa younger. This could be an important source of inspiration for Sansa, who has already been forced to marry once and is fed up with men who only want her for her claim.

Unfortunately Lysa goes on to tell Sansa that she would like to marry her to Sweetrobin, to which Sansa immediately thinks “It is not me she wants her son to marry, it is my claim. No one will ever marry me for love”. Lysa tells Sansa she’s no better than a beggar now, and should be grateful and obedient, but at the same time it’s clear she wants Sansa to marry SR for her claim.

Lysa is also very open about her sexual desires:

“Poo to my court. I have waited so long, I could not bear to wait another moment.” She put her arms around him. “I want to share your bed tonight, my sweet. I want us to make another child, a brother for Robert or a sweet little daughter.”

“I dream of that as well, sweetling. Yet there is much to be gained from a great public wedding, with all the Vale - “

“No.” She stamped a foot. “I want you now, this very night. And I must warn you, after all these years of silence and whisperings, I mean to scream when you love me. I am going to scream so loud they’ll hear me in the Eyrie!”

When Lysa and LF are having sex and Lysa is screaming, Sansa ponders on her own wedding night, and how Tyrion lied to her by saying that in the dark he was the Knight of Flowers and that he could be good to her. Then she compares him to Sandor, how he wouldn’t lie, and wonders where he is at the moment.

We see then her calling the old dog a “sad old hound” and petting him, and Marillion using the song metaphor in a way that is definitely sexual: “l’ll have you singing louder than the Lady Lysa.”. Then when Lothor Brune arrives she thinks it’s the Hound to save her. When she sleeps she dreams of her wedding night again, and in her marital bed she sees Sandor, demanding a song. There is no mistaking that Sansa truly knows what goes on in a marital bed, and what asking for a song means, and that this was indeed an erotic dream. This is truly a moment of sexual awakening for Sansa.

Another potentially important piece of advice from Lysa: “A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman’s honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You’ll know that, when you have a child”.

So Lysa killed Arryn with poison to protect SR (Arryn wanted to send him to Dragonstone), and Sansa knows that the Tyrells (probably Olenna) poisoned Joffrey to protect Margaery from his cruelty. Sansa sees Lysa justify her use of poison, and she can understand the reasoning behind Joff’s murder. Will Sansa ever resort to poison? It’s a common theory that she will end up poisoning LF (maybe even with her old hairnet if she still has it).

Another thing is that during Lysa’s fit of rage at seeing LF kissing Sansa, she talks about how she gave her maidenhood to LF, out of love, out of wedlock, with not even a betrothal, and she doesn’t regret it. This fact, combined with LF’s false information that Cat gave his maidenhood to him as well, could mean big things for Sansa. Cat is the woman she most admires in her life. If she can have sex before marriage, and Lysa, both highborn ladies, and not regret it, this opens up a new possibility to Sansa, one she has never considered before.

Even Lysa's death can be considered a lesson. Lysa was entirely devoted to LF, who in turn also acted like a devoted husband (when she was around). And he threw her out of the moon door without even blinking an eye. This teaches Sansa more about LF than the death of Ser Dontos, it makes it really explicit how false and untrustworthy he is.

[Lyanna Stark]

I was actually thinking about the ways Brienne's body was described when I typed that - especially her hips and thighs. There's also a noticeable (or maybe I'm glossing over?) lack of bellies, which seems unrealistic, but that may just be me trying to find myself in the text.

Lysa ans Lollys are the two women who are described as really unattractive based mostly on weight. Lysa is described as "sagging and bulging" and Lollys as "softbodied" I think

Brienne's description is something we normally only get from Jaime if we are going to go into detail and he has a strange off/on thing going on wrt Brienne and her physical appearance. As in: he talks about her as ugly, but it's like he subconsciously still finds her attractive despite himself. He does describes her as having broad hips and thighs, I think. But then overall she's quite a muscular woman which I assume would be unusual for highborn ladies of Westeros, but perhaps less so today if we are looking at elite sportswomen.

Another potentially important piece of advice from Lysa: “A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman’s honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You’ll know that, when you have a child”.

Great post Lady Lea.

This highlighted bit is very interesting in this context. Lysa puts her finger on something that both she and the QoT knows: a woman's chances of wielding hard power is slim to none and women must normally act in the shadows and use other means. Is it dishonourable or just useful? A morally complex issue perhaps. As Tywin says: is it worse to kill 200 people at a wedding than thousands in the field? Does it depends on who you are killing, too? Killing LF would arguably do the world a favour, but someone like Sweetrobin? Or even Jon Arryn, whose only crime was to marry Lysa for Tully military support.

[brashcandy]

Ok ok so here’s Lysa. I hope it turned out ok!

Lysa is the daughter of Hoster Tully, widow of Jon Arryn, as highborn a lady as they get, and Sansa sees her marry… Littlefinger, lord of a tiny piece of rock and some sheep. For love. She’s very open about the fact that she loves this lowborn man and is not ashamed of it at all. She would have married him even when he didn’t have any important titles.

Great post! And this is an important point here which I never really dwelled on. Lysa was willing to accept Littlefinger when he had nothing, but she has to wait until he does acquire the suitable standing to be able to marry and live openly. However, in the meantime, Sansa sees her that her body has gone soft and time has left her a bitter woman. Not only that, but Petyr has become Lord Littlefinger, someone who is cold and calculating and very far from the romanticised image Lysa has of her "Petyr". It's a cliche: but time is the enemy of love in many ways, and what Sansa may take away from this is that it's not enough to simply suffer in silence in another marriage and wait long years to be with the one you want.

Even Lysa's death can be considered a lesson. Lysa was entirely devoted to LF, who in turn also acted like a devoted husband (when she was around). And he threw her out of the moon door without even blinking an eye. This teaches Sansa more about LF than the death of Ser Dontos, it makes it really explicit how false and untrustworthy he is.

Yes, she does learn a lot about the kind of man LF is by this act. Also, she probably realises that obsessive love for someone can lead to disaster. It's one thing to be in love with another person, but one must be able to see the faults and flaws of that individual and keep a healthy perspective. Lysa could never do this and her ending is tragic because of it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Great post! And this is an important point here which I never really dwelled on. Lysa was willing to accept Littlefinger when he had nothing, but she has to wait until he does acquire the suitable standing to be able to marry and live openly. However, in the meantime, Sansa sees her that her body has gone soft and time has left her a bitter woman.

Interestingly, Cersei also became a really bitter and hateful woman during her years with Robert, same as Lysa here (granted, Cersei is also selfish, power hungry and greedy, but still).

Both Cersei and Lysa were in different ways trapped by political circumstance which prevented them from having any influence in whom they ended up marrying. Lysa's case is the more tragic here too, I think.

Is it just me or does Sansa not comment much on LF claiming to have taken both Cat's and Lysa's maidenheads? (Or well, LF informs her of the former and Lysa the latter).

[Caro99]

great posts on QoT, marg, lysa & myranda everyone! so many good points have already been mentioned that i'll just comment some small details:

- i think myranda and everything we see in the next book will be a breath of fresh air for sansa, one which she has needed for a long time now. as was mentioned, LF is all about secrecy so for sansa to finally open up and befriend mya & randa will be healthy and fun. sansa needs the pillow talk randa is more than willing to give her, and i can't wait to see sansa realize that there's a pretty big reason for her to relate Sandor to sex. It's like what was said in the lysa post, as she is hearing lysa singing it's natural for her to recall her own wedding night, but to then think of all people on earth about sandor and how he will never lie to her speaks volumes! i hope sansa can get to trust mya & randa and that they won't ever turn their backs on her. i only fear that myranda has expressed desire on marrying LF. i hope she isn't the really ambitious kind...

- About marg & the QoT: indeed, poor sansa to have been cornerned so & all for nothing! but i think the lessons she learned from the tyrell with benefit her later on. she knows that a woman can choose her own husband and "rule" through him. she knows that a woman can maybe love someone and yet still marry another (i think sansa believes marg & renly loved each other) and yet she still wanted to marry joff.. after LF enlightens her she can see al the game moves and ambitions behind they really had in mind, but when she tries to win over some people she knows that being nice and thoughtfull of their needs is important if she wants to gain their trust, just like the tyrells did with her and cersei in the first book...

- about Lysa and how she taught sansa that mothers will do anything for their children: i can see sansa loving her children with all her heart, but since she has none yet i guess that deciding to protect SR will be a way to explain that she would much rather be with her family than in the game had she the choice..? & it's a clever point that sansa got to see the results of obsessive love. she'll know soon enough that LF is lysa all over again only with Cat in mind- & now her. Another reason why Sandor re-appearing in her life would be good: Sandor doens't seem the obsessive type. meaning that back in Blackwater, he ultimately respected sansa's choice of not going with him, and he didn't tried to force her against her will to escape. he cares more about her happiness than satisfying himself and in the future i can see him accepting sansa choosing another (maybe for political reasons or for love) and those are things LF won't do i think, at least not now that he's been with her for quite a bit. He may "share" her with harry, but in the end he can kill harry and have sansa himself, however reluctant she is about that.