From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Lyanna Stark]

I agree, Valkyrja, it could be a step backwards in her story, but I still see the distinct possibility of this having more implications than just her feelings for Sandor. I believe the narrative in her current POVs, but in the future she could reimagine her past... (if this makes sense)

I'm not really sure that there is any reason for her to reimagine her past. She seems to enjoy the freedom Alayne gives her, but she also seems to remember well who she is: and that person is definitely Sansa Stark.

So far, the unkiss seems to tie Sansa to her past though, a past that she is trying to put out her mind and focus on her performance as Alayne. If the unkiss is to be significant, then I would expect to see Martin showing it as somehow being a factor in helping Sansa to break away from LF's control and gain some independence. Thinking about the unkiss itself: it's a mismemory, but importantly, a memory of being kissed by a man who is quite inappropriate as a suitor for a highborn girl. Therefore, the unkiss in itself holds meaning to do with erotic agency, identity, and autonomy (Sansa does create it all on her own afterall), all of which are very important themes in Sansa's arc and should become even more critical as her story continues.

Interestingly, as you note here, the UnKiss seems to hold meaning both for Sansa's past but also for her future, in that what she has struggled with the most so far has been identity, autonomy and perhaps above all agency. The UnKiss as Sansa's Needle hidden away, yes, no?

[Lyanna Stark]

Sansa's very isolated right now, and everything that we think we know is happening is happening is from her POV chapters. There's no one to "correct" the narrative, so we don't know what's false and what isn't. I'm not going to say that she's constructed an elaborate fake world, but she could be "remembering" something relatively minor incorrectly and that turns out to have bigger implications than we think. And I'm talking about something other than the unkiss right now, very likely whatever is happening to her in the Vale.

I'm not sure there's anything to indicate what is happening in the Vale is not real, nor that Sansa has created some sort of dream world for herself.

If nothing else, one would hope she'd create a better dream world for herself than one where LF wants her to sit on her lap and kiss him while presenting him with a marriage contract to HtH. ;)

I'd also question what purpose a "fake" story from Sansa would have in the narrative. I can't think of any at the moment (unless it has to do with the tapestries!)

[brashcandy]

Interestingly, as you note here, the UnKiss seems to hold meaning both for Sansa's past but also for her future, in that what she has struggled with the most so far has been identity, autonomy and perhaps above all agency. The UnKiss as Sansa's Needle hidden away, yes, no?

I really think so :) And I hope GRRM is planning on it being an empowering memory, connected to that much needed agency, rather than one that defines her as an unreliable narrator or relates to more abuse/trauma in her future. Given what we've seen of Sansa's arc so far, I would say the former reading has much more narrative relevance to the character and where her story is going.

[Kittykatknits]

I really think so :) And I hope GRRM is planning on it being an empowering memory, connected to that much needed agency, rather than one that defines her as unreliable narrator or relates to more abuse/trauma in her future. Given what we've seen of Sansa's arc so far, I would say the former reading has much more narrative relevance to the character and where her story is going.

I agree. At this point, if the UnKiss where to indicate that she would be rewriting her past events or has turned events in the Vale to some sort of fantasy, I'd be a pretty big step back in character arc. It'd also negate much of her character development regarding agency and self-determination.

I can't remember if it was in this thread or another, but you'd made a point of saying that Sansa's story arc would likely serve as Martin's central point on the changing roles of women in Westers. I'm not even coming close to doing your words justice but I really liked what you said. But, to get to the point, if the mismemory were to be anything less than positive at this point in the series, I think it would destroy much of the message that Martin is saying with Sansa.

I need to go find what you said again and paste it to notepad on my computer, I really liked it.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Maybe a duck is just a duck.....maybe she is remembering a kiss simply because she wishes he had kissed her. end of story.

i know....not very exciting and possibly improbable but who knows

[Kittykatknits]

Maybe a duck is just a duck.....maybe she is remembering a kiss simply because she wishes he had kissed her. end of story.

i know....not very exciting and possibly improbable but who knows

Martin has said it will be important later so it has meaning.

[Lyanna Stark]

I can't remember if it was in this thread or another, but you'd made a point of saying that Sansa's story arc would likely serve as Martin's central point on the changing roles of women in Westers. I'm not even coming close to doing your words justice but I really liked what you said. But, to get to the point, if the mismemory were to be anything less than positive at this point in the series, I think it would destroy much of the message that Martin is saying with Sansa.

That's a really good point. Sansa's arc is really a condensed version of the issues other women face when it comes to being a piece of flesh to be sold off in marriage. Cersei, Dany, Asha and Arianne also struggle with this, but sit on a sliding scale with more emphasis on "women having open political power" while Sansa is probably on the far end of "power in the private sphere", but of course, all of them suffer from the same problems, to a large degree. Even Brienne who has marked herself clearly as an outsider and who almost completely eschews a feminine role is not immune to this, far from it. You cannot really have one without the other.

Dany is the only one who can really wrest power and take it herself due to her dragons, but we see in ADWD that with the dragons chained up, her grasp on power diminishes, and she is forced into a marriage of convenience.

[brashcandy]

Martin has said it will be important later so it has meaning.

And just to underscore what I said above about it being an empowering memory, I think we've already seen an example of this when Randa Royce asks her if she knows what goes on in the marriage bed and she thinks of Tyrion and Sandor, but specifically how the latter kissed her. The unkiss is functioning here as a kind of gateway to womanhood and access to the insights and secrets concerning sexuality and desire. Given that Sansa refused to consummate her marriage with Tyrion, but experienced a kiss with Sandor and clearly enjoyed it, we could say that this contrast between what she likes and does not like, and the role she played in both events, gives her power as an active desiring (and discerning) subject, and makes her even less likely to succumb to LF's seductions, personally or politically.

:) Ahhhh, hope that made sense, I'm thinking these ideas through as I type them!

[brashcandy]

Dany is the only one who can really wrest power and take it herself due to her dragons, but we see in ADWD that with the dragons chained up, her grasp on power diminishes, and she is forced into a marriage of convenience.

What I've found interesting is how Martin is using female desire and erotic agency to explore the larger questions of female power and independence. The kind of acceptance that these women find with their lovers, and the freedom inherent in being able to explore their sexuality with someone they genuinely desire, connects to their confidence as rulers and their determination to break free of patriarchal constraints.

[Le.Chevalier.D'Eon]

As a confirmed Sansa hater, it is hard for me to be objective.

Sansa does not have to be brilliant (thank goodness, because she's not smart) in order to take down Littlefinger. All she has to do is reveal his secrets to the right person and LF would be going out the moon door. Is she going to be a major player in the Game? I do not believe so. While taking down LF would be easy for her, playing the game of thrones well will require her to learn a lot. Perhaps too much.

[brashcandy]

As a confirmed Sansa hater, it is hard for me to be objective.

Sansa does not have to be brilliant (thank goodness, because she's not smart) in order to take down Littlefinger. All she has to do is reveal his secrets to the right person and LF would be going out the moon door. Is she going to be a major player in the Game? I do not believe so. While taking down LF would be easy for her, playing the game of thrones well will require her to learn a lot. Perhaps too much.

Being objective is one thing, but what about sensible? Who exactly would be the right person for Sansa to tell all about LF? Lysa, Nestor Royce, the Lords Declarant, Sweetrobin?

[Lyanna Stark]

As a confirmed Sansa hater, it is hard for me to be objective.

Sansa does not have to be brilliant (thank goodness, because she's not smart) in order to take down Littlefinger. All she has to do is reveal his secrets to the right person and LF would be going out the moon door. Is she going to be a major player in the Game? I do not believe so. While taking down LF would be easy for her, playing the game of thrones well will require her to learn a lot. Perhaps too much.

Hi there,

What do you base your thoughts on Sansa not being smart on? We know from Arya's chapters in AGOT that Sansa is a very good student and that Arya is only better than her at Maths. Bran also mentions that Sansa reads novels in ADWD.

The people who claim she's stupid are Joffrey and Cersei and they're not what I'd call really reliable, while Tywin thinks her "tractable". Littlefinger seems to hold Sansa's intellect to a much higher standard though.

What I've found interesting is how Martin is using female desire and erotic agency to explore the larger questions of female power and independence. The kind of acceptance that these women find with their lovers, and the freedom inherent in being able to explore their sexuality with someone they genuinely desire, connects to their confidence as rulers and their determination to break free of patriarchal constraints.

I'm almost at the chapter where Dany takes Daario as her lover in the ADWD reread, and I think there may be some illuminating things in there with regards to women, sexuality and power. Especially since Daario and Hizdahr are contrasted so extremely strongly in what they stand for in Dany's life and how she reacts to them, and what she wants, herself.

Another thing that may be of interest is Cersei's strange relationship with the patriarchal structures she herself hates, yet she completely buys into them as she feels the need to define herself as a man would, and she cannot find it in her to be a female ruler. She keeps trying to be Robert and Tywin.

[brashcandy]

I'm almost at the chapter where Dany takes Daario as her lover in the ADWD reread, and I think there may be some illuminating things in there with regards to women, sexuality and power. Especially since Daario and Hizdahr are contrasted so extremely strongly in what they stand for in Dany's life and how she reacts to them, and what she wants, herself.

Another thing that may be of interest is Cersei's strange relationship with the patriarchal structures she herself hates, yet she completely buys into them as she feels the need to define herself as a man would, and she cannot find it in her to be a female ruler. She keeps trying to be Robert and Tywin.

We shall have to read that chapter very carefully :) Yes, Cersei provides an interesting contrast. Trying to embody Robert/Tywin, whilst still attempting to undermine the patriarchy, results in a disconnect which creates havoc largely for herself. I think the first quote in my signature is particularly applicable to Cersei's situation in AFFC.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

Without derailing into a Cersei thread....wasn't that part of her sexual experimentation? She was taking on the man's role in sex...

And when I earlier said a duck is a duck.....and maybe Sansa just wanted him to kiss her....I still stand by it? As a possibility. Her actually WANTING him to kiss her is, in itself, an act of autonomy. Of reclaiming her own authority. The sheer fact that she would want such a man speaks volumes in itself and ties directly into many of the developmental theories out there

She is supposed to be wanting Loras to kiss her.....not a gruff, crude, drunk, beastly, studly, oozing with testosterone, strong manly man like Sandor

*fanning self now....where is Rory*

[Lady Lea]

She is supposed to be wanting Loras to kiss her.....not a gruff, crude, drunk, beastly, studly, oozing with testosterone, strong manly man like Sandor

*fanning self now....where is Rory*

hahahaha I love the string of adjectives

[Mladen]

1. What significance, if any, is there to the naming of some of Sansa's chapters as "Alayne"?

2. What thoughts does Sansa think that it would be inconceivable for her to think had she not worn the guise of Alayne?

3. To what degree are Sansa-as-Alayne's actions instinctual? To what degree are they conscious?

4. Does Sansa like herself as Alayne? What does Sansa-as-Alayne think of her previous self?

1. Sansa Stark was naivee girl who believed everyone, and Alayne is girl who knows how to play the game and survive it. Naming chapters after Alayne is just manner of showing us that Sansa is changing, and becoming some sort of twisted FM, when Game ofThrones is in question.

2. She is now bastard so those manners and courtesy have to had another shape, she is becoming player through those thoughts, she is no more lady, no more princess or future queen, she is no one, just a Governor`s bastard, and she is allowed some indiscretions...Especially with LF

3. Deep down, there is no Alayne, Sansa is Stark of Winterfell, and she knows it very well. She is using everything that she was thought as Sansa to gain love and affection of entire Vale, remember bastards aren`t that respected or appreciated as she is in the Eyrie. Conscious actions are all the same as those insticual, because they come from same place. Her instincts are good to tell her to be polite, well-mannered and loveable, and also, she conciously knows it is the best thing for her.

4, Sansa is not Alayne, it`s just a mask, in private she is Sansa, and she isn`t forgeting it. She is cautious(Winter is coming, Stark words are her philosophy), perceptive and knows what the stakes are. She doesn`t enjoy being bastard, but she has to play along, she has to do anything to survive(she now has to bow and not be the proud Stark). Alayne isn`t Sansa, and Sansa is well aware of it, because one day will come when Alayne won`t be needed and she would be thrown like a old rug...due to the fact that Game will need Sansa Stak one more time again...

[Dr. Pepper]

It's not at all the same thing.

The words used to describe her are the same used for Hodor, Jinglebell Frey and Patchface.

She never utters a word in the whole series except for crying. I don't think anyone could mistake her condition.

This is a prime example of how what POV characters say can't be taken for fact. Lollys speaks on several occasions. After she was raped, she is often scared and says things like "I don't want to" in reference to going outside of her chambers. She cries but, um, she's just been gangraped. She wasn't crying uncontrollably before being gangraped in a mob. She was also crying at Sansa and Tyrion's wedding, but considering her mom was trying to have her wed to Tyrion it could be that she was simply sad that the option was now gone. She also wanted her baby to be named after Tywin. When Falyse brought the question to Cersei, she specifically said it was Lollys that asked for it. Outside of POV character descriptions of Lollys, she's just a shy girl, later a shy and very traumatized girl. Mostly the reason they describe her as lackwit is because she's shy and quiet and also very fat. Lots of references to her size in the same sentence as describing her as dim-witted. There are two other very fat characters in the books who have had their intelligence questioned due to their weight: Same and Manderly. We know that neither of them are stupid.

[Lady Lea]

A lot of people also try to say Tyrion wouldn't have been happy with Lollys, not because of her appearance (as if he didn't care) but because he wants an intelligent wife. It certainly doesn't seem to be what he was looking for when he married the crofter's daughter or when he had his liaison with Shae or when he married Sansa (he thinks very little of her intelligence).

[Kittykatknits]

That's a really good point. Sansa's arc is really a condensed version of the issues other women face when it comes to being a piece of flesh to be sold off in marriage. Cersei, Dany, Asha and Arianne also struggle with this, but sit on a sliding scale with more emphasis on "women having open political power" while Sansa is probably on the far end of "power in the private sphere", but of course, all of them suffer from the same problems, to a large degree. Even Brienne who has marked herself clearly as an outsider and who almost completely eschews a feminine role is not immune to this, far from it. You cannot really have one without the other. Dany is the only one who can really wrest power and take it herself due to her dragons, but we see in ADWD that with the dragons chained up, her grasp on power diminishes, and she is forced into a marriage of convenience.

What I've found interesting is how Martin is using female desire and erotic agency to explore the larger questions of female power and independence. The kind of acceptance that these women find with their lovers, and the freedom inherent in being able to explore their sexuality with someone they genuinely desire, connects to their confidence as rulers and their determination to break free of patriarchal constraints.

Another big YES to both of you! All these characters, I believe display the different ways women suffer as pieces of flash but this goes back to the earlier point on how Sansa is at the heart of it. Dany took lover and then game him up for duty, Asha is still with hers after running from a forced marriage, and Cersei feels that her only tool remaining is that between her legs which leads her to want to be Robert/Tywin. Sansa is unique as she has been exposed to the broadest variety of women and seen how they wield power and have siezed (or failed to sieze) personal autonomy and love. It starts with her mother who did her duty and grew to love her husband. In KL, she saw Cersei and Ellaria Sand. Then, Lysa, the woman at the Fingers, Mya, and finally, Randa. They are married, unmarried, paramours, bastards, and widows. We've seen for Sansa's thoughts that each has left their impression on her. We may very well see Sansa use all these influences to ford a new path for herself, distinct from other female characters.

And when I earlier said a duck is a duck.....and maybe Sansa just wanted him to kiss her....I still stand by it? As a possibility. Her actually WANTING him to kiss her is, in itself, an act of autonomy. Of reclaiming her own authority

I see what you are saying now. Yes, it is possible.

[brashcandy]

Another big YES to both of you! All these characters, I believe display the different ways women suffer as pieces of flash but this goes back to the earlier point on how Sansa is at the heart of it. Dany took lover and then game him up for duty, Asha is still with hers after running from a forced marriage, and Cersei feels that her only tool remaining is that between her legs which leads her to want to be Robert/Tywin. Sansa is unique as she has been exposed to the broadest variety of women and seen how they wield power and have siezed (or failed to sieze) personal autonomy and love. It starts with her mother who did her duty and grew to love her husband. In KL, she saw Cersei and Ellaria Sand. Then, Lysa, the woman at the Fingers, Mya, and finally, Randa. They are married, unmarried, paramours, bastards, and widows. We've seen for Sansa's thoughts that each has left their impression on her. We may very well see Sansa use all these influences to ford a new path for herself, distinct from other female characters.

I like this idea. We can surmise a few things already:

1. She doesn't want to be married for her claim

2. She can appreciate sex outside of marriage if there is love between the couple

3. She's not willing to have sex out of "duty"

4. She values honesty, strength and loyalty in a man

5. She still desires intimacy and love in a relationship

It's interesting because what we're seeing is a unity between Sansa's personal and political objectives. Just as she thought of ruling through love and not fear, it's clear that she wants to have that same love in her intimate relationships. How she will go about achieving this harmony is the question for us to think about :)

Perhaps we can take each female "role model" she comes into contact with and discuss what she learns from them with quotes and a little analysis?