From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Lyanna Stark]

Thanks for the well wishes guys and sorry for the crappy grammar and spelling, I made a mess with copy paste I am afraid! Can't even prettify it since I am on my phone.

@brashcandy, yes I think you are right in that he learnt he could trust Sansa early on.

Personally I am fascinated by the similarity in the vocabulary used to describe Brienne and Sandor; from the not Ser to the strength and gentleness. It just seems far too obvious to be a coincidence.

[A...]

Brothers in Arms

Even more bizarrely, Gregor and Cersei seem to have some sort of odd rapport, in that he rushes to Kings Landing when Cersei writes to fight the Mountain. Later on, he’s also the one who whisks Cersei away after her walk of shame. Just a sidenote really, but I found it odd that the dastardly siblings of Jaime and Sandor are in cahoots, of sorts.

First of all, I am in awe of the enormity and insightfulness of your post :bowdown:

Secondly 'the Hound with teats' hahahaha, I'd forgotten about that one!

And lastly as to the above quote concerning Cersei and Gregor (or unGregor, as the case may be). I was trying to think back on what we know of their relationship pre-GOT. Obviously, the Cleganes were Lannister bannermen, and Gregor was a knight (unlike his brother) so that might have led to closer contact with the Lord's household. But I was wondering if we were ever given evidence of any special affection in that quarter which might have been overlooked? Considering all these characters actually have in common is being evil, I don't really see the reason for such a strong bond, unless perhaps The Mountain feels the need to be told what to do by somebody marginally cleverer than himself, but then again that category is, undeniably, vast, so it comes back to the same question - why rush to Cersei's aid instead of going about his usual raping and pillaging business unless he has some special affection for her? The question here being: Is Gregor capable of human emotion?!?! :eek:

[Lyanna Stark]

Ah A... Now we need to wait for Rapsie to come in and lay out GreCer and RoSie! :)

That aside, it struck me as a bit odd that Gregor sucks up to Cersei that much. Must have annoyed Sandor since he was her bodyguard for years, or maybe that was why? Gregor somehow wouldn't let him be more included with the Lannisters?

Another interesting tidbit: Jaime is clear on that Gregor is the monster, not Sandor. He calls Sandor a hard and brutal man, but does not see him as a rapist nor anything like a monster. And Jaime feels haunted about what happened to Rhaegar's children, that he personally failed them.

[Kittykatknits]

*Completely Off Topic*

I am currently in Limerick, Ireland and crying my wee eyeballs out as I don't have the money to go up to Belfast and hang out in the pubs in hopes of finding Rory McCann (or anyone else for that matter)

*OK Back On Topic*

If I saw Rory, I would imagine this scenario--

Me: Rory! Take me now and ravish my body. I'm yours..

Rory: Bloody hell, another damn SanSan shipper.

Me: Could you put on the scar makeup too please?

Now that you mentioned this, I realised that Sandor tells Sansa that story very early on in AGOT, but she truly tells no one, not even her best friend Jeyne, whom she enjoys gossiping with. At that age how many of us wouldn't have been tempted to share such a sensational, albeit gruesome tale, with our closest friends. I agree that this early exchange of trust and confidence - I can tell you a secret and you can keep it, really cemented their bond. I don't his threat had anything to do with it either. Somehow, even back then, Sansa never appears unduly worried about Sandor hurting her. We don't get her reaction to his threat then, but the very next day she is "moist-eyed" watching him joust, which I think is very telling.

Thanks for the well wishes guys and sorry for the crappy grammar and spelling, I made a mess with copy paste I am afraid! Can't even prettify it since I am on my phone.

@brashcandy, yes I think you are right in that he learnt he could trust Sansa early on.

Personally I am fascinated by the similarity in the vocabulary used to describe Brienne and Sandor; from the not Ser to the strength and gentleness. It just seems far too obvious to be a coincidence.

Heh, I got you beat in the spelling and grammar category. I do quite a bit on my iPad and am way to lazy to fix afterwards.

I do agree that it showed that he could trust her but I think it's an early sign of Sansa's self-discipline as well. At that age, and even older to be honest, I'd have had a hard time keeping that big of a secret. I don't think it is much of a stretch to say that many would not be able to either and yet she does keep quiet about it. She never seems to be tempted, although she does reflect on the truth behind his burns at later stage. Sansa is very good at internalizing her thoughts and self-control, we begin to really see those traits come forward in Clash but, to me, her actions show they've been her all along.

First of all, I am in awe of the enormity and insightfulness of your post :bowdown:

Secondly 'the Hound with teats' hahahaha, I'd forgotten about that one!

And lastly as to the above quote concerning Cersei and Gregor (or unGregor, as the case may be). I was trying to think back on what we know of their relationship pre-GOT. Obviously, the Cleganes were Lannister bannermen, and Gregor was a knight (unlike his brother) so that might have led to closer contact with the Lord's household. But I was wondering if we were ever given evidence of any special affection in that quarter which might have been overlooked? Considering all these characters actually have in common is being evil, I don't really see the reason for such a strong bond, unless perhaps The Mountain feels the need to be told what to do by somebody marginally cleverer than himself, but then again that category is, undeniably, vast, so it comes back to the same question - why rush to Cersei's aid instead of going about his usual raping and pillaging business unless he has some special affection for her? The question here being: Is Gregor capable of human emotion?!?! :eek:

Gregor/Cersei...another tragic love story... :crying: :crying:

In all seriousness, Joffrey describes the Hound as being his mother's dog more than his. I also remember that we were told that Gregor's men were not allowed at court and that Gregor spent much of his time at his family keep when not needed elsewhere. Anything else in the text that would indicate contact between the two of them?

[A...]

If I saw Rory, I would imagine this scenario--

Me: Rory! Take me now adn ravish my body. I'm yours..

Rory: Bloody hell, another damn SanSan shipper.

Me: Could you put on the scar makeup too please?

This made me laugh.

Gregor/Cersei...another tragic love story... :crying: :crying:

And this made me spill my tea hahaha the spurned lover, the exiled knight! (how tragic)

Okay, in all seriousness though the whole Gregor character seems to me in contradiction to the idea we're supposed to be taking away from the Sandor/Sansa/Jamie/Brienne storylines. I love the way GRRM has brought the stereotype of the white knight crashing down, populating his books with knights in various shades of grey (sometimes, in the case of pre-KG Sandor, literally wearing grey). I love all the metaphors of the stained white cloak. Through the eyes of Sansa and Brienne we see the author's abolition of the knight in shining armour. The curious thing here is he hasn't done the same with the dark knight stereotype. We're supposed to believe there are no white knights and yet we should accept the existence of black ones?

Consider the case of Edward the Black Prince - who was famous for raping, pillaging and burning villages, taxed peasants near to death and rejected the notions of chivalry on the battlefield, opting instead for unchivalrous flank attacks which n.b. gained him considerable military success. At the same time he was the founder of the Order of the Garter, the most famous Chivalric Order in England, so there we go - grayness: cruelty combined with cleverness to make a man who has gone down in history as the Black Prince, although that might quite probably have been due to the colour of his shield...

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Edward is anything like Gregor ( :ack: ), on the contrary they're a million miles apart (well, apart from the mutual enjoyment of raping, pillaging and burning) just an example of a character more black than grey but grey nonetheless.

What leaves me confused is why create this horrible monster just as a plot device to further the Sandor arc (which it does admirably btw.) when we have legitimate candidates for a greyish black knight in somebody like Randyll Tarly, whom I dislike intensely for his treatment of Sam, but admire for his justiciary practices which seem to be... quite fair.

* Sorry for blathering on about Gregor in the Sansa Thread, it was just something that grew out of my consideration of the knighthood storylines in which she's involved, I'll do my best not to get sidetracked again.

[brashcandy]

* Sorry for blathering on about Gregor in the Sansa Thread, it was just something that grew out of my consideration of the knighthood storylines in which she's involved, I'll do my best not to get sidetracked again.

No problem :) It's all connected to Sansa.

I think Martin wanted to present Gregor as the absolutely worst example of knighthood. We're meant to see him as a monster because this system does create such beasts, and legitimize them as knights. They have the power to rape and pillage and then sit at a high lord's table and participate in royal jousts. So you have Gregor at worst end of the scale, and then you move up the line to other knights like Blount and Trant, gutless cowards who will beat a helpless child because they are ordered to. Some knights will not rape and pillage for sport, but will do so after battle. They are "honourable" knights in Westeros, but Martin highlights that even honour is a problematic concept when applied to knighthood and the contradictory oaths they are required to swear. Jaime talks a lot about this, and we see the conflict in Barristan Selmy as well. This is why Sandor is so adamant that he will not take knight's vows because he doesn't want to endorse a system he believes is fundamentally corrupt and dishonest.

[Caro99]

Christina C, I can just imagine what you must be feeling being that close and yet so far away from Belfast!!

Lyanna, Happy B- Day!! Your analysis about Brienne/Jaime and Sandor/Sansa was really great, i enjoyed it a lot. I’ve always liked the idea of this four meeting up one day in the future. Even if neither Sansa nor Sandor where around in Dance it was nice to see the cliffhanger for both Brienne and Jaime being linked to Sandor and Sansa...

Kittykatnknits, that line about Rory saying “Bloody hell, another SanSan shipper,” was hilarious.

Now about two general topics, it is intriguing for Sandor to have told Sansa about his burns so early on without really knowing her, especially after he’d just told her that she is just practically like all the other girls at court, reciting lies and courtesies. I guess that George just wanted to show just how connected these two could be from the start, maybe even hinting at the Lady replacement connection with Sandor. Even Tyrion after he married Sansa thinks that she may be stupid enough to confide in one of her handmaidens about their marriage.

Another little thing that bothers me about the show having changed LF being the one to tell Sansa the story of Sandor and his burns is that at the end of that scene Sansa does seem scared that the Hound would kill her, but her true reaction was just sooo different, considering Sansa supporting Sandor over Jaime. I like how George didn’t let us know of Ned or even Septa Mordane ever wondered how Sansa got back to her chambers after the tourney. It gives a more intimate “theme” to the encounters between San/San.

& about Gregor and Cersei, it may mean nothing, but even Sandor said that had Gregor realized he had captured Arya Stark he would have taken her straight to KL and would’ve dumped her in Cersei’s lap, so… maybe he was trying to win his favor back with his beloved queen? But anyways, I much prefer the theory of Cersei/Gregor than that of a younger Sandor/Cersei I’ve seen at times.

[A...]

it is intriguing for Sandor to have told Sansa about his burns so early on without really knowing her, especially after he’d just told her that she is just practically like all the other girls at court, reciting lies and courtesies.

As to this I think he was probably more comfortable confiding in her because she was relatively new at court and therefore had most likely not had many chances to hear the story from some whisperer/gossip like Littlefinger (I still cannot believe they changed that in the tv show - even if it was raining, they could have done the scene in some castle cloisters or something) Anyway, if you take this anonymity factor and add to that the fresh memories of Gregor being an arse at the tourney, it's understandable he would have wanted to share his feelings/memories.

On a side note: Sandor and Cersei?! This must be the worst potential couple ever.

[Caro99]

As to this I think he was probably more comfortable confiding in her because she was relatively new at court and therefore had most likely not had many chances to hear the story from some whisperer/gossip like Littlefinger (I still cannot believe they changed that in the tv show - even if it was raining, they could have done the scene in some castle cloisters or something) Anyway, if you take this anonymity factor and add to that the fresh memories of Gregor being an arse at the tourney, it's understandable he would have wanted to share his feelings/memories.

On a side note: Sandor and Cersei?! This must be the worst potential couple ever.

true, it most have been pretty emotional to have just beat Gregor in a fight so he just needed to tell someone and we know what that started... <3

by the way, i feel the same about what the show did to this important moment, and they even made Sansa afraid in that scene of the Hound whereas she actually comfots him... sighs, more than a year and i can't get over that :(

& i agree about the cersei/sandor being just plain wrong. the "theories" about these two are just crzy for me, seeing as how cersei is just about pretending and empty flirtations and stuff, things we know sandor was not attracted to since sansa isn't like that :dunno:

[Raksha the Demon]

This made me laugh.

And this made me spill my tea hahaha the spurned lover, the exiled knight! (how tragic)

Okay, in all seriousness though the whole Gregor character seems to me in contradiction to the idea we're supposed to be taking away from the Sandor/Sansa/Jamie/Brienne storylines. I love the way GRRM has brought the stereotype of the white knight crashing down, populating his books with knights in various shades of grey (sometimes, in the case of pre-KG Sandor, literally wearing grey). I love all the metaphors of the stained white cloak. Through the eyes of Sansa and Brienne we see the author's abolition of the knight in shining armour. The curious thing here is he hasn't done the same with the dark knight stereotype. We're supposed to believe there are no white knights and yet we should accept the existence of black ones?

Consider the case of Edward the Black Prince - who was famous for raping, pillaging and burning villages, taxed peasants near to death and rejected the notions of chivalry on the battlefield, opting instead for unchivalrous flank attacks which n.b. gained him considerable military success. At the same time he was the founder of the Order of the Garter, the most famous Chivalric Order in England, so there we go - grayness: cruelty combined with cleverness to make a man who has gone down in history as the Black Prince, although that might quite probably have been due to the colour of his shield...

Anyway, I'm not trying to say that Edward is anything like Gregor ( :ack: ), on the contrary they're a million miles apart (well, apart from the mutual enjoyment of raping, pillaging and burning) just an example of a character more black than grey but grey nonetheless.

What leaves me confused is why create this horrible monster just as a plot device to further the Sandor arc (which it does admirably btw.) when we have legitimate candidates for a greyish black knight in somebody like Randyll Tarly, whom I dislike intensely for his treatment of Sam, but admire for his justiciary practices which seem to be... quite fair.

* Sorry for blathering on about Gregor in the Sansa Thread, it was just something that grew out of my consideration of the knighthood storylines in which she's involved, I'll do my best not to get sidetracked again.

Just a slightly off-topic note to say that the Black Prince was not the founder of the Order of the Garter; it was founded by his father, Edward III. There's a legend that a lady was dancing at court; her garter slipped and fell to the floor; the king picked it up and tied it around her leg; and told the courtiers, who were making catty remarks, "Honi soit qui mal y pense" (Evil to him who evil thinks); which I believe is the motto of the Order.

The Black Prince was an interesting historic character, though; a formidable and ruthless fighter; who had a successful marriage to the wealthy and pretty Joan of Kent, and had two sons with her (the older one died quite young, leaving the future Richard II), only to die of illness before his father. He was the oldest son of Edward III (who had many children, and was the ancestor of three dynasties). In ASoIaF, I think the Black Prince could have easily been Randall Tarly. (Edward III would have been Tywin Lannister)

[Kittykatknits]

true, it most have been pretty emotional to have just beat Gregor in a fight so he just needed to tell someone and we know what that started... <3

by the way, i feel the same about what the show did to this important moment, and they even made Sansa afraid in that scene of the Hound whereas she actually comfots him... sighs, more than a year and i can't get over that :(

& i agree about the cersei/sandor being just plain wrong. the "theories" about these two are just crzy for me, seeing as how cersei is just about pretending and empty flirtations and stuff, things we know sandor was not attracted to since sansa isn't like that :dunno:

As to this I think he was probably more comfortable confiding in her because she was relatively new at court and therefore had most likely not had many chances to hear the story from some whisperer/gossip like Littlefinger (I still cannot believe they changed that in the tv show - even if it was raining, they could have done the scene in some castle cloisters or something) Anyway, if you take this anonymity factor and add to that the fresh memories of Gregor being an arse at the tourney, it's understandable he would have wanted to share his feelings/memories.

On a side note: Sandor and Cersei?! This must be the worst potential couple ever.

I highly doubt there was anythig between Sandor and Cersei. If there had been, we would have had some thought from Cersei's POV. She does quite a bit of reflecting on her past and I can't see why this would be the exception. She also states that hte only sex she has ever enjoyed is with her brother, the rest has only been to further her own needs. I don't know what Sandor would have done to help her. Sounds like crackpotting to me, at least as of now.

As to Sandor telling the story of his burns, I don't think that was common knowledge at all. The story put out is that his bed was on fire and we have no indication that anyone thinks otherwise. He had been drinking, and like the serpentine steps, alcohol seems to make him rather talkative. I'd guess it was a mixture of tat along with a desire to give her some truths about knighthood and KL that provoked it. Also, Martin needed to show their connection too. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

I highly doubt there was anythig between Sandor and Cersei. If there had been, we would have had some thought from Cersei's POV. She does quite a bit of reflecting on her past and I can't see why this would be the exception. She also states that hte only sex she has ever enjoyed is with her brother, the rest has only been to further her own needs. I don't know what Sandor would have done to help her. Sounds like crackpotting to me, at least as of now.

One interesting thing to consider in this scenario is how Tyrion automatically assumes that Shae, a beautiful woman, will want to have an affair with someone and therefor posts ugly guards around her. Was it Tywin that picked Sandor for Cersei on a similar basis? It wouldn't surprise me, only that Tywin was cutting off his nose to spite his face in a way since Cersei already had her "affair" and it was a bit closer to home.

From Cersei's POV we also know she likes very good looking men, like Jaime and Rhaegar Targaryen, or failing that, Lancel as Jaime replacement or Aurane Waters as Rhaegar replacement. The Kettleblacks seem to be more about manipulation than actualy desire from Cersei. She also never mentions Sandor as anything but a competent retainer she wishes she still had.

EDIT: On the note of pretty boys: Loras Tyrell.

Now Sansa fawns a bit over Loras in the same way as Cersei seems to fawn over Rhaegar. Even in AFFC, we still see Sansa thinking Loras is gallant and pretty, but what about Loras himself? It stood out to me while perusing the last Jaime chapters in ASOS what a massive arsehole Loras is. Not only did he in a fit of rage kill his sworn brothers, but he automatically assumes Brienne is guilty and then he stans there and proclaims Sansa guilty of trying to poison Margaery out of jealousy. The guy of the family who framed Sansa for regicide stands right there in front of his Lord Commander and is really hateful towards Sansa who has never done anything to him in his life. I hope he gets to eat those words at some point.

[Knight]

Now about two general topics, it is intriguing for Sandor to have told Sansa about his burns so early on without really knowing her, especially after he’d just told her that she is just practically like all the other girls at court, reciting lies and courtesies. I guess that George just wanted to show just how connected these two could be from the start, maybe even hinting at the Lady replacement connection with Sandor. Even Tyrion after he married Sansa thinks that she may be stupid enough to confide in one of her handmaidens about their marriage.

Just to add: I think one of the reasons why Sandor told Sansa about his burns is because she, from how I read the text, has made quite an impression on him during their first encounter on the Kingsroad on their way to KL. The very first time they meet she bumps into him while backing away from Payne. I cannot recall the exact details of their first conversation, but it struck me as if both were fascinated by one another during that time. So fascinated apparantly, that it drove Sandor to tell Sansa about his burns.

Concerning Sandor and Cersei: I think that Cersei regarded Sandor as nothing more than an employee, somebody around her who could do the dirty jobs while her hands stayed clean. However, Sandor seems to hate Tyrion massively, and this hate goed further than the usual contempt and harshness we've seen him expressing about people who he sees as weaker. We know that Sandor is able to show compassion (putting an archer out his misery when he's with Arya in SOS)...his attitude towards Tyrion seems to be based on hate, which is a much more extreme emotion. I do think something specific has happened between those two that has caused Sandor's hate towards Tyrion. Possibly something that has to do with their difference in power, as Tyrion does not seem to be bothered by Sandor's attitude.

Edit: Just spotted that my last point has been brought up in 'Why all the love for the Hound' topic.

[brashcandy]

I've been wondering if LF isn't trying to recreate the events of his boyhood and what happened with Cat and Brandon, now that he's in the Vale. Except now of course the players have changed, and he's using Sansa and Harry the heir, whilst LF is the one with the power. I remember Lyanna Stark noted a while back how LF was being deliberately derogatory to Harry and setting him up to Sansa as an easy conquest. Let's imagine that Harry is now playing the role of the young LF. Hopelessly charmed by this young beautiful girl, but her love lies elsewhere. Could this be what LF has been plotting all along. A game within a game, moving the pieces into a position where he believes he can't lose? He's simultaneously playing the roles of Brandon Stark and Hoster Tully - lover and father - and how could you possibly fail with that amount of power? This time there's no room for error: he's told Sansa that young girls are happier with older men, he's grooming her sexually, and he's set up Harry as a kind of playboy knight, not like the sophisticated mentor she can depend on.

[Raksha the Demon]

One interesting thing to consider in this scenario is how Tyrion automatically assumes that Shae, a beautiful woman, will want to have an affair with someone and therefor posts ugly guards around her. Was it Tywin that picked Sandor for Cersei on a similar basis? It wouldn't surprise me, only that Tywin was cutting off his nose to spite his face in a way since Cersei already had her "affair" and it was a bit closer to home.

From Cersei's POV we also know she likes very good looking men, like Jaime and Rhaegar Targaryen, or failing that, Lancel as Jaime replacement or Aurane Waters as Rhaegar replacement. The Kettleblacks seem to be more about manipulation than actualy desire from Cersei. She also never mentions Sandor as anything but a competent retainer she wishes she still had.

EDIT: On the note of pretty boys: Loras Tyrell.

Now Sansa fawns a bit over Loras in the same way as Cersei seems to fawn over Rhaegar. Even in AFFC, we still see Sansa thinking Loras is gallant and pretty, but what about Loras himself? It stood out to me while perusing the last Jaime chapters in ASOS what a massive arsehole Loras is. Not only did he in a fit of rage kill his sworn brothers, but he automatically assumes Brienne is guilty and then he stans there and proclaims Sansa guilty of trying to poison Margaery out of jealousy. The guy of the family who framed Sansa for regicide stands right there in front of his Lord Commander and is really hateful towards Sansa who has never done anything to him in his life. I hope he gets to eat those words at some point.

I never had the impression that Loras was the smartest of the Tyrells. He may have inherited his father's less than stellar intelligence; though he's obviously prettier. Loras goes for the superficial, at age 16-18, to the same degree that Sansa did at ages 11-12.

I don't hold Sansa's fawning over Loras and Cersei's fawning over Rhaegar against them; they were both very young and the guys unattainable. I think I went through crushes on Paul McCartney and Bobby Sherman when I was little; and I'd never seen them in person (and feature for feature they probably weren't as gorgeous as Loras or Rhaegar). If the story took place in the here-and-now, Loras would be the Justin Bieber of the Westeros, with his photos all over the teen magazines and blogs and websites; and Rhaegar would have been a huge heartthrob for the young ladies even after he married. (can't you just imagine all the screaming noble damsels and smallfolk girls at tournaments?) I doubt that Cersei would even still remember Rhaegar with that much fondness if he had not been heir to the Iron Throne as well as being pretty.

[Alissa]

Just to add: I think one of the reasons why Sandor told Sansa about his burns is because she, from how I read the text, has made quite an impression on him during their first encounter on the Kingsroad on their way to KL. The very first time they meet she bumps into him while backing away from Payne. I cannot recall the exact details of their first conversation, but it struck me as if both were fascinated by one another during that time. So fascinated apparantly, that it drove Sandor to tell Sansa about his burns.

I was just reading that part again, and I think you're definitely right. And also, just before he tells her how he got his scars, he says: "I've watched you turning away all the way down the Kingsroad." So he makes her look at him, and Sansa starts to cry. Sandor reacts by letting go of her and extinguishing the torch so she doesn't have to look at him anymore, and that's when he starts telling her his story. Almost as if he wants to make up for scaring her.

And of course he's also slightly drunk, which always seems to help him to open up ...

[Lyanna Stark]

I've been wondering if LF isn't trying to recreate the events of his boyhood and what happened with Cat and Brandon, now that he's in the Vale. Except now of course the players have changed, and he's using Sansa and Harry the heir, whilst LF is the one with the power. I remember Lyanna Stark noted a while back how LF was being deliberately derogatory to Harry and setting him up to Sansa as an easy conquest. Let's imagine that Harry is now playing the role of the young LF. Hopelessly charmed by this young beautiful girl, but her love lies elsewhere. Could this be what LF has been plotting all along. A game within a game, moving the pieces into a position where he believes he can't lose? He's simultaneously playing the roles of Brandon Stark and Hoster Tully - lover and father - and how could you possibly fail with that amount of power? This time there's no room for error: he's told Sansa that young girls are happier with older men, he's grooming her sexually, and he's set up Harry as a kind of playboy knight, not like the sophisticated mentor she can depend on.

Ooooh I like that theory. I think it's been fairly clear that LF has other motives than just Sansa's claim, he really does seem to want to "correct" this event from his youth, but now with a Cat version 2.0.

It really would make for a twisted sort of elegance if he really was after recreating the scene, but this time he will be in control as he is both the "father" and the "lover" and "Cat" is supposed to be on his side now.

Raksha,

I agree with you, I don't think there's anything wrong with youthful crushes personally. It's just that GRRM has set it up as something shallow and dare I say unwanted in the grand scale of things in Westeros. Doomed infatuation seems to be a theme, from Rhaegar/Lyanna, Jorah/Lynesse, LF/Cat, Lysa/LF, Cersei/Rhaegar, Cersei/Jaime, Robert/Lyanna, etc It's portrayed as utterly destructive and not as anything positive.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

It would amuse me to no end if Sandor came up and challenged Harry for Sansa's hand.....the same way LF did to Brandon.

Of course, Sandor is the better warrior over Harry....but still...he is the penniless nobody that LF was whereas Harry is the heir (after robert) of the Eyrie. Harry is also "pretty"

Then Sansa chooses the penniless, ugly, worthless Sandor over harry and THERE GOES LF'S little setup......

OK that is fanfic-sih.....it was more about Sansa defying LF expectations than any SanSaning, FYI.....so you can substitute Sandor's name with anyone else if you choose....

just more of a History Repeating Itself only this time the girl CHOOSES the penniless guy (whereas Cat chose Brandon)

[Lyanna Stark]

just more of a History Repeating Itself only this time the girl CHOOSES the penniless guy (whereas Cat chose Brandon)

Cat chose duty and she only had sisterly feelings for Littlefinger. I also always got the feeling that Cat was a bit awed by Brandon and thought him quite handsome, hence why Ned seemed a bit drab at first to her.

What is more interesting in this scenario is that Sansa is less likely to do her "duty" since she doesn't really have one any more. She cannot really do much for House Stark or Tully where she is, apart from maybe saving Sweetrobin somehow. As for all the other crazy marriage ideas people around her come up with: she has no duty to them, or anyone anymore. Which is a rather interesting situation for her.

[brashcandy]

Ooooh I like that theory. I think it's been fairly clear that LF has other motives than just Sansa's claim, he really does seem to want to "correct" this event from his youth, but now with a Cat version 2.0.

It really would make for a twisted sort of elegance if he really was after recreating the scene, but this time he will be in control as he is both the "father" and the "lover" and "Cat" is supposed to be on his side now.

Yes, it really has that kind of poetic justice feeling that would appeal to someone like LF, who's arguably never gotten past that moment of humiliation and rejection. It's been a self-defining factor in his life, and responsible for his dogged rise to power. We ask ourselves over and over, what it is that LF wants, and this may be it: to recreate history, to strike back at the nobility that denied him his ultimate fantasy and to get what he feels would have been his were it not for the lack of proper lineage and social standing. And he wants to make this a challenge of sorts (nobody loves a game like LF), so he introduces Sansa to Harry the Heir, whilst content in knowing that he's already disparaged the boy.