From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[brashcandy]

What is more interesting in this scenario is that Sansa is less likely to do her "duty" since she doesn't really have one any more. She cannot really do much for House Stark or Tully where she is, apart from maybe saving Sweetrobin somehow. As for all the other crazy marriage ideas people around her come up with: she has no duty to them, or anyone anymore. Which is a rather interesting situation for her.

Indeed. She's a Stone now, and let's recall what Mya tells her in AFFC:

Men come and go. They lie, or die or leave you. A mountain is not a man, though, and a stone is a mountain's daughter.

[Tagganaro]

Cat chose duty and she only had sisterly feelings for Littlefinger. I also always got the feeling that Cat was a bit awed by Brandon and thought him quite handsome, hence why Ned seemed a bit drab at first to her.

What is more interesting in this scenario is that Sansa is less likely to do her "duty" since she doesn't really have one any more. She cannot really do much for House Stark or Tully where she is, apart from maybe saving Sweetrobin somehow. As for all the other crazy marriage ideas people around her come up with: she has no duty to them, or anyone anymore. Which is a rather interesting situation for her.

Well, wouldn't Sansa's duty just be Winterfell? Whatever she decides puts her and Winterfell in the best position? In this case, it seems clear again that this would be Harry the Heir because he can command the loyalty of the Vale and its largely untouched military.

It would be interesting if LF again underestimates Sansa's "duty" in this game within a game. Even though that's not clear either, because it seems as if Cat never really liked LF much anyway so who is to say she sided with Brandon Stark out of duty.

[brashcandy]

Well, wouldn't Sansa's duty just be Winterfell? Whatever she decides puts her and Winterfell in the best position? In this case, it seems clear again that this would be Harry the Heir because he can command the loyalty of the Vale and its largely untouched military.

Sansa doesn't see Winterfell as a "duty" or claim; she views it as home. She's always detested being married off because she is the heir, and if the only way she can reclaim Winterfell is through her claim, then I think she'll make up her mind to cherish it as a memory only.

It would be interesting if LF again underestimates Sansa's "duty" in this game within a game. Even though that's not clear either, because it seems as if Cat never really liked LF much anyway so who is to say she sided with Brandon Stark out of duty.

Well the question isn't really whether she liked LF or not. What LF is doing is making sure that Sansa knows Harry isn't really worth liking, and deliberately turning her attention towards him. As for duty, he's set it up so that she's implicated in his crimes and has little choice but to play the game along with him. I think it's a case of him underestimating the qualities that define Sansa as a person, and which will eventually rise up in a natural rebellion. She's growing stronger in her Alayne Stone persona, and gaining more confidence about what she achieve. If she can win over Lothor Brune's allegiance, and Mya Stone's friendship, she would have two important allies to help her going forward.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Well, wouldn't Sansa's duty just be Winterfell? Whatever she decides puts her and Winterfell in the best position?

I don't necessarily think that the story is moving this way, but, at this point, I would not be opposed to Sansa realizing that her "duty" is to herself - her safety, her happiness...her life.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I don't necessarily think that the story is moving this way, but, at this point, I would not be opposed to Sansa realizing that her "duty" is to herself - her safety, her happiness...her life.

That's insane and kinda offensive to her mother's people.

Sansa is the last Stark. She's a Tully to the bone and, all about family duty honor. Her duty is to, yes Sweet Robin, but also Winterfell, the people in the Eyrie, Arya Bolton Jeyne Poole. The people in the North and Riverlands will look for a leader, not the "Anti-Tully" Snow, nor the baby Rickon. The knights will follow Sansa and I see no reason at all why her duty is to woo Harry and Petyr and not Kill Walder or Cersei

[Lyanna Stark]

Well the question isn't really whether she liked LF or not. What LF is doing is making sure that Sansa knows Harry isn't really worth liking, and deliberately turning her attention towards him. As for duty, he's set it up so that she's implicated in his crimes and has little choice but to play the game along with him. I think it's a case of him underestimating the qualities that define Sansa as a person, and which will eventually rise up in a natural rebellion. She's growing stronger in her Alayne Stone persona, and gaining more confidence about what she achieve. If she can win over Lothor Brune's allegiance, and Mya Stone's friendship, she would have two important allies to help her going forward.

Ah yes, I missed that the first couple of times I read it just how disdainful Littlefinger is of Harry. The first couple of times I somehow just thought of him as flippant, but he's actually really presenting Harry in a less than flattering light. Granted, Littlefinger is a bit drunk here as Sansa notes the spices on his breath (not mint this time) but it's still noticeable how he tells her about Harry while at the same time physically being so very intimate and insinuating through his words that he's both cleverer and that he and Sansa belong together without Harry.

Another thing to remember is that Littlefinger often says clever things, and then he seems to not really take them into account himself. Like his comment about the smallest pieces sometimes turning everything upside down. Well, Sansa is near some "small pieces" like Lothor Brune and Mya Stone, while it seems Littlefinger is looking more at Myranda Royce and the Lords Declarant. I wonder if he knows that Lothor fancies Mya? Maester Colemon is another interesting person there. Whose side is he on? Can Sansa work through him when it comes to saving Sweetrobin from LF? Lots of people without any "real" power could still make a difference.

[Tagganaro]

Sansa doesn't see Winterfell as a "duty" or claim; she views it as home. She's always detested being married off because she is the heir, and if the only way she can reclaim Winterfell is through her claim, then I think she'll make up her mind to cherish it as a memory only.

Duty or home, Sansa is operating under the impression, probably correctly, that in order to get back there and reclaim it she is going to need the help of Harry the Heir and the Knights of the Vale. I doubt she wants it to live on in just her memory, everything we've been shown about her is that she sincerely and desparately wants to get back there.

Well the question isn't really whether she liked LF or not. What LF is doing is making sure that Sansa knows Harry isn't really worth liking, and deliberately turning her attention towards him. As for duty, he's set it up so that she's implicated in his crimes and has little choice but to play the game along with him. I think it's a case of him underestimating the qualities that define Sansa as a person, and which will eventually rise up in a natural rebellion. She's growing stronger in her Alayne Stone persona, and gaining more confidence about what she achieve. If she can win over Lothor Brune's allegiance, and Mya Stone's friendship, she would have two important allies to help her going forward.

I don't think LF has done much, if anything to make Sansa dislike Harry. His description of him is pretty neutral. He basically says he's a good looking guy and Sansa will be the envy of the Vale for being betrothed to him. He further says that if she can pull it off, once she becomes Sansa Stark again the entire Vale will take up arms for her to bring her back Winterfell.

It just doesn't sound to me like LF wants her to dislike Harry honestly. I think it's too important to his plans that Sansa is a willing participant in wooing Harry.

[Lyanna Stark]

Duty or home, Sansa is operating under the impression, probably correctly, that in order to get back there and reclaim it she is going to need the help of Harry the Heir and the Knights of the Vale. I doubt she wants it to live on in just her memory, everything we've been shown about her is that she sincerely and desparately wants to get back there.

But why would she want to go there? As far as Sansa knows, Winterfell is sacked and burnt, everyone she knew from there is gone. She has no family and no home, which is why she is staying with LF. The only relative she knows about is Jon Snow, but she probably has no idea how to go to the Wall, especially on her own, nor what she would do at the Nights Watch.

I don't think LF has done much, if anything to make Sansa dislike Harry. His description of him is pretty neutral. He basically says he's a good looking guy and Sansa will be the envy of the Vale for being betrothed to him. He further says that if she can pull it off, once she becomes Sansa Stark again the entire Vale will take up arms for her to bring her back Winterfell.

It just doesn't sound to me like LF wants her to dislike Harry honestly. I think it's too important to his plans that Sansa is a willing participant in wooing Harry.

Au contraire. LF's description of Harry is very loaded. :) Littlefinger is presenting Harry as a bit of a simpleton whose "boyish heart" Sansa will have no problems winning. That indicates to me that Harry is easy to manipulate and that Sansa is held in higher regard by LF, indicating Harry is beneath LF and Sansa. Further, LF tells her straight out about Harry's bastards, which is hardly a good thing, i.e. he's not a worthy person for Sansa to bother with.

[Tagganaro]

Here's the actual description, posted for further discusson:

"You are promised to Harrold Hardying, sweetling, provided you can win his boyish heart...which should not be hard for you."

"Harry the Heir?" Alayne tried to recall what Myrand had told her about him on the mountain. "He was just knighted. And he has a bastard daughter by some common girl."

"And another on the way by a different wench. Harry can be a beguiling one, no doubt. Soft sandy hair, deep blue eyes, and dimples when he smiles. And very gallant, I am told." He teased her with a smile. "Bastard-born or no, sweetling, when this match is announced you will be the envy of every highborn maiden in the Vale, and a few from the riverlands and the Reach as well."

I mean, of course there's the typical LF wittiness and disdain for Brandon Stark-types, but overall LF can't describe him much more positively. I just think it's too important again to LF's plans that Sansa actually goes for this.

[Tagganaro]

But why would she want to go there? As far as Sansa knows, Winterfell is sacked and burnt, everyone she knew from there is gone. She has no family and no home, which is why she is staying with LF. The only relative she knows about is Jon Snow, but she probably has no idea how to go to the Wall, especially on her own, nor what she would do at the Nights Watch.

Well, yeah, of course she doesn't want to there now at this exact moment when it is a ruin. But as a Stark, and from the memories we've seen, I'd imagine Sansa wants nothing more than to eventually return to Winterfell. Her running away from that would be somewhat weak in my mind. She is after all a Stark, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

Au contraire. LF's description of Harry is very loaded. :) Littlefinger is presenting Harry as a bit of a simpleton whose "boyish heart" Sansa will have no problems winning. That indicates to me that Harry is easy to manipulate and that Sansa is held in higher regard by LF, indicating Harry is beneath LF and Sansa. Further, LF tells her straight out about Harry's bastards, which is hardly a good thing, i.e. he's not a worthy person for Sansa to bother with.

Well I posted the discussion below. Sansa is actually the one who brings up the bastard because Myranda Royce told her about it. And it is LF after all- I'm pretty sure he could describe bread in a loaded and disdainful kind of way. That's just who he is. But yeah, it's certainly not clear what LF wants out of this just now. But I would believe he does really want/need Sansa to go for this and try to win over Harry, as it's part of LF's plan for the game of thrones.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

That's insane and kinda offensive to her mother's people.

Sansa is the last Stark. She's a Tully to the bone and, all about family duty honor. Her duty is to, yes Sweet Robin, but also Winterfell, the people in the Eyrie, Arya Bolton Jeyne Poole. The people in the North and Riverlands will look for a leader, not the "Anti-Tully" Snow, nor the baby Rickon. The knights will follow Sansa and I see no reason at all why her duty is to woo Harry and Petyr and not Kill Walder or Cersei

The point I was trying to make is that Sansa is a young woman (honestly, I want to use the word "child" here) who has gone through some truly terrible shit, and I think that she would be perfectly justified in offending whomever she wants to, if it means taking control of her own life. If she would rather be happy than Lady of Winterfell, I would support that decision. There is no reason why, after all she's seen, Sansa should be required to sacrifice her own happiness for the sake of the North, or the Trident, or the Vale, or any of the adults therein who can take responsibility for their own situations, rather than depending on an adolescent to deliver them from a situation that has little to do with her, at this point.

[brashcandy]

Well, yeah, of course she doesn't want to there now at this exact moment when it is a ruin. But as a Stark, and from the memories we've seen, I'd imagine Sansa wants nothing more than to eventually return to Winterfell. Her running away from that would be somewhat weak in my mind. She is after all a Stark, and there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

But she wouldn't be running away from Winterfell. She would be refusing to be exploited for Winterfell, which is a very crucial difference that has come to be important to Sansa. Tumnas the Torpid makes a great point upthread: Sansa has a duty to herself, to her happiness, and even though she may long for Winterfell, if it's going to put her back in the position as pawn, what would be the point?

Well I posted the discussion below. Sansa is actually the one who brings up the bastard because Myranda Royce told her about it. And it is LF after all- I'm pretty sure he could describe bread in a loaded and disdainful kind of way. That's just who he is. But yeah, it's certainly not clear what LF wants out of this just now. But I would believe he does really want/need Sansa to go for this and try to win over Harry, as it's part of LF's plan for the game of thrones.

LF's words are very subtle here, but I think the greater importance is what he says to Sansa about young girls being happier with older men, and his own behaviour with regard to kissing and touching her. He's presenting Harry to her as a game: a pawn for them to ensnare in order to reclaim Winterfell, but he's presenting himself (an older man and her mentor) as the one she should seriously entertain romantic thoughts about.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

LF definitely plays up the "dimples, etc" part of Harry. LF is still thinking Sansa wants Loras the Pretty Flower. He is playing to that with his "gallant" description of Harry while at the same smarky time insinuating little insults about Harry.

He doesn't realize her dreams are about a different sort of man now.......

now once THAT cat comes out of the bag....a lot of jaws will drop

[Gingerly Grumkin]

The point I was trying to make is that Sansa is a young woman (honestly, I want to use the word "child" here) who has gone through some truly terrible shit, and I think that she would be perfectly justified in offending whomever she wants to, if it means taking control of her own life. If she would rather be happy than Lady of Winterfell, I would support that decision. There is no reason why, after all she's seen, Sansa should be required to sacrifice her own happiness for the sake of the North, or the Trident, or the Vale, or any of the adults therein who can take responsibility for their own situations, rather than depending on an adolescent to deliver them from a situation that has little to do with her, at this point.

She has gone through so much, terrible shit doesn't even cut into it. But

Life is not a song sweetling. Someday you may learn that to your sorrow

She is a child, but children in medieval settings are young (my favorite medieval broad is Eleanor of Aquitain who married Henry II of England and gave birth to Richard the Lion Heart and two other English kings, she became queen of France at 13) It's a sad story. I want Sansa to be happy and have puppies and stuff, but that would be desecrating her dead families name. Family Duty Honor. Princess Sansa has a duty to the Realm. She knows of the Lannisters stealing the crown, she knows the sketchy Tyrells, she knows "daddy" Petyr killed Jon and wrote the letter, etc. In the grand scheme of things Sansa's happiness means nothing, no one ever gets what they truly want nor should they anyways. Their's bigger fish in the sea. The words Family Duty Honor are special, they sum up the Tully strength, ambition, and good natureness. Thanks to her sad story and awful environment, the Starks now have a Game of Thrones player; and Winter is Coming

[Tagganaro]

But she wouldn't be running away from Winterfell. She would be refusing to be exploited for Winterfell, which is a very crucial difference that has come to be important to Sansa. Tumnas the Torpid makes a great point upthread: Sansa has a duty to herself, to her happiness, and even though she may long for Winterfell, if it's going to put her back in the position as pawn, what would be the point?

I agree with all this, but who is to say she would be a pawn if she can win over Harry? Obviously if she's going along with LF she will be a pawn. But if she can win over Harry on her own and manipulate him against LF? Then he's the pawn and she's the player. It would be a wonderful reclamation of her power imo, and almost a reversal of Sansa/Joffrey and everyone else. I'm reminded of two things here- Cersei's speech to Sansa in the Red Keep about using the weapon between her legs, and the constant reminders that Sansa is beautiful. She can do whatever she wants if she puts her mind to it by using the advice she's learned from terrible people like Cersei and LF in conjunction with conversations with the Hound, etc.

LF's words are very subtle here, but I think the greater importance is what he says to Sansa about young girls being happier with older men, and his own behaviour with regard to kissing and touching her. He's presenting Harry to her as a game: a pawn for them to ensnare in order to reclaim Winterfell, but he's presenting himself (an older man and her mentor) as the one she should seriously entertain romantic thoughts about.

I do think we need more info about what LF's plans actually are. As I understand it, he needs/wants the Stark/Vale alliance as a powerbase for his play in the game of thrones. But additionally, he also needs/wants Sansa as a replacement for Catelyn, and obviously he also needs Sansa to stay dependent on him so if the Harry/Sansa marriage goes through, there's still a place for LF within that marriage.

So in regards to what LF is saying, yes I agree he's trying to describe Harry in a pawn-like light, but he's also saying nice things about him, because he needs/wants Sansa to both flirt with and win over Harry but in the end come back to LF. I think that might be where Sansa can reclaim her power and where LF is sorely mistaken. Sansa shouldn't and doesn't want to help LF in his game. If she can win over Harry on her own without being dependent on LF, there's no room for LF. Sansa can then use Harry as a pawn to take back Winterfell, with her as the player.

But again, who is to say what happens? You certainly could be right as well.

[brashcandy]

Having a duty to one's self does not mean that you suddenly forsake the ties of family and kinship, Gingerly Grumkin. Is there no room for self expression and free will outside the bonds of family? Sansa may find a way to reclaim her home one day (or not), but she does not have to do so through a marriage alliance that would require her subjugation and submission to a man whom she does not love. These are the conditions that have spawned many a disastrous union in Westeros and led to wars and political turmoil.

[brashcandy]

I agree with all this, but who is to say she would be a pawn if she can win over Harry? Obviously if she's going along with LF she will be a pawn. But if she can win over Harry on her own and manipulate him against LF? Then he's the pawn and she's the player. It would be a wonderful reclamation of her power imo, and almost a reversal of Sansa/Joffrey and everyone else. I'm reminded of two things here- Cersei's speech to Sansa in the Red Keep about using the weapon between her legs, and the constant reminders that Sansa is beautiful. She can do whatever she wants if she puts her mind to it by using the advice she's learned from terrible people like Cersei and LF in conjunction with conversations with the Hound, etc.

Yes, I see your point as well, but there's a real danger in playing a game when feelings and emotions are involved. Winning over Harry is one thing, but what comes afterward? She must live with him and bear his children and exist in the background. Sure, she might be able to pull some strings if Harry is particularly ineffective and bumbling, but this still involves a submission of self that Sansa doesn't want. There's a larger question in play here: does turning someone into a pawn designate you as a player? And if it does, is this really a fulfilling destiny? I don't think it would be for Sansa. She's been forced to play the game, but she's always been driven by very personal convictions and desires. Cersei's words aren't simply hard for her to digest because she's still young, but because they are intrinsically alien to Sansa's perspectives. She's the one who dreams of ruling through love, not fear. As for the advice from the Hound, he encourages her to be less naive, yes, but one of his fundamental codes relates to honesty.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Having a duty to one's self does not mean that you suddenly forsake the ties of family and kinship, Gingerly Grumkin. Is there no room for self expression and free will outside the bonds of family? Sansa may find a way to reclaim her home one day (or not), but she does not have to do so through a marriage alliance that would require her subjugation and submission to a man whom she does not love. These are the conditions that have spawned many a disastrous union in Westeros and led to wars and political turmoil.

Who said anything about marriage? Besides, she already is :D . And I see no reason why every marriage ends in the girls submission. Her marriage through Tyrion resulted in her virginity and Tyrion changing his doublet to look less Dwarfish. Joanna's domination on her powerfull husband is famed throughout the seven kingdoms. Robert did not make the calls in his bedchamber or his government, and Ned went South under his wife's protests. Women certiantly can have power in the marriage.

Regarding what you said here "Is there no room for self expression and free will outside the bonds of family?"

I don't know, is there? Sandor says being born a Clegane is no crime, but do we not judge Tyrion by his father's actions, or excuse Dany's madness with Blood of the Dragon? Is not every Frey condemned to die by the North for their atrocities? In the world of Ice and Fire family goes beyond hair and eye color, the familes are truly the same. Cersei and Tyrion are both roaring lions like Quentyn and Arianna are slithering snakes. Now whether Sansa's a powerfull Wolf that looks after her younger sibilings or the Mistress of the Riverlands trout, her duty is to more then puppies whether it's Willas' or Sandor. (not that I hate on San/San, you'd have to be blind or not reading to not see the signs. It just shouldn't be more important then her duty to Ned, Cat, Bran & Rickon, Robb, Arya and the tens of thousands that have died in her war

[Tumnas the Torpid]

...

I want Sansa to be happy and have puppies and stuff, but that would be desecrating her dead families name. Family Duty Honor. Princess Sansa has a duty to the Realm. She knows of the Lannisters stealing the crown, she knows the sketchy Tyrells, she knows "daddy" Petyr killed Jon and wrote the letter, etc. In the grand scheme of things Sansa's happiness means nothing, no one ever gets what they truly want nor should they anyways. Their's bigger fish in the sea. The words Family Duty Honor are special, they sum up the Tully strength, ambition, and good natureness. Thanks to her sad story and awful environment, the Starks now have a Game of Thrones player; and Winter is Coming

I want to be clear, here. I personally expect something along the lines of what Tagganaro describes above to take place, but what I was trying to express was the idea that Sansa should not be inextricably bound by some ideal of filial duty. I don't think that she has an obligation to reclaim the Stark legacy, much less that of the Tullys - whom she bareley knows/never met, outside of her mother and aunt.

Sansa is still in a very precarious situation, and I feel that she would be justified in taking any steps to gaurantee her own safety and/or independence (read: happiness). Even if that should, hypothetically, include running off and living as a commoner, abandoning the game of thrones to other players. I don't see this as likely (I'm kind of hoping Arya will do this, though), but I do not think it would represent a "desecration".

Also, I never mentioned puppies.

[brashcandy]

Who said anything about marriage? Besides, she already is :D . And I see no reason why every marriage ends in the girls submission. Her marriage through Tyrion resulted in her virginity and Tyrion changing his doublet to look less Dwarfish. Joanna's domination on her powerfull husband is famed throughout the seven kingdoms. Robert did not make the calls in his bedchamber or his government, and Ned went South under his wife's protests. Women certiantly can have power in the marriage.

Sansa wants a marriage built on genuine love and affection, ergo, a marriage that does not include those things will in effect require that submission of self. Her marriage to Tyrion rendered her powerless and voiceless, with the threat of rape hanging over her head daily. Joanna ruled Tywin at home, whilst Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, and the reason their marriage was successful was precisely because they had genuine love for one another. Lady Olenna had power in her marriage because she rejected a Targaryen husband and made a match with someone of her liking.