From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[brashcandy]

Sansa is still in a very precarious situation, and I feel that she would be justified in taking any steps to gaurantee her own safety and/or independence (read: happiness). Even if that should, hypothetically, include running off and living as a commoner, abandoning the game of thrones to other players. I don't see this as likely (I'm kind of hoping Arya will do this, though), but I do not think it would represent a "desecration".

Agreed, but with regard to Arya, it's interesting when we consider that what motivates her - vengeance - places her in a more suitable position to be a game player and to reclaim Winterfell for the Starks. Added to this is the role of fake!Arya, who marries Ramsey in order to cement his hold on the North. I really do think Arya might become embroiled in the political drama in Westeros to a greater extent than people might suspect.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I want to be clear, here. I personally expect something along the lines of what Tagganaro describes above to take place, but what I was trying to express was the idea that Sansa should not be inextricably bound by some ideal of filial duty. I don't think that she has an obligation to reclaim the Stark legacy, much less that of the Tullys - whom barley knows never met, outside of her mother and aunt.

Sansa is still in a very precarious situation, and I feel that she would be justified in taking any steps to gaurantee her own safety and/or independence (read: happiness). Even if that should, hypothetically, include running off and living as a commoner, abandoning the game of thrones to other players. I don't see this as likely (I'm kind of hoping Arya will do this, though), but I do not think it would represent a "desecration".

Also, I never mentioned puppies.

Ned's bones are soon to be in the clutches of fucking lady Dustin, who makes Ramsay look like a Maester. Her baby brothers are dead, from her Dad's ward. They were flayed and paraded around for the Realm to see. Her Mother and Brother are dead, in her uncles fucking wedding! And why did all this happen? Because Sansa loved Joffrey. I forgive her, in truth I never condenmed her, but will Sansa forgive herself? She knows Ned's head dropped because of her actions, I don't see how you can forgive youself for that nor how you can abandon family duty honor, espically when she hears word of Arya Bolton.

Me and my crazy liberal ideas throw alot of shots at feudalism and monarchies, some of the worst types of governments. But, it's impossible to ignore the beauty they have, the brigh Blue and Red next to the chill Grey and White colors. The responcibilty that the Starks and ex Monarchs of Winter have to the people. If I want to continue loving Ned's actions of not sending his daughters away so he can look at one more brothel, or Cat arresting Tyrion and freeing Jaime then I must see it was worth it. Many ask to play AGOT, some play on their own. Many belive they are deserving to wear a crown, some people have a responcibilty to wear one.

Sansa wants a marriage built on genuine love and affection, ergo, a marriage that does not include those things will in effect require that submission of self. Her marriage to Tyrion rendered her powerless and voiceless, with the threat of rape hanging over her head daily. Joanna ruled Tywin at home, whilst Tywin ruled the Seven Kingdoms, and the reason their marriage was successful was precisely because they had genuine love for one another. Lady Olenna had power in her marriage because she rejected a Targaryen husband and made a match with someone of her liking.

Powerless and voiceless? He changed his clothes, took her advice on the maids, and was free to dance with any Tyrell she can see.

I don't understand what you mean about Joanna or Olenna, they both totally whipped their husbands (untill Lord Tyrell drove off a cliff lol)

But really, I could care less about her marriage. Queen Elizabeth I never married, nor did Cleopatra or the Amazon princesses of old, I see no reason why Sansa has to marry. She is heir to Harrenhall, Winterfell and Riverrun which is like 3/4 of the realm. There is no reason why she should marry anyone when she already got the best claim ever

[Tagganaro]

Yes, I see your point as well, but there's a real danger in playing a game when feelings and emotions are involved. Winning over Harry is one thing, but what comes afterward? She must live with him and bear his children and exist in the background. Sure, she might be able to pull some strings if Harry is particularly ineffective and bumbling, but this still involves a submission of self that Sansa doesn't want. There's a larger question in play here: does turning someone into a pawn designate you as a player? And if it does, is this really a fulfilling destiny? I don't think it would be for Sansa. She's been forced to play the game, but she's always been driven by very personal convictions and desires. Cersei's words aren't simply hard for her to digest because she's still young, but because they are intrinsically alien to Sansa's perspectives. She's the one who dreams of ruling through love, not fear. As for the advice from the Hound, he encourages her to be less naive, yes, but one of his fundamental codes relates to honesty.

Agreed, but I'm only talking about the near future anyway. Not marriage and kids, just betrothal and maybe even less just flirting and manipulation. We haven't really met Harry so it's tough to say. Maybe Sansa really does like him and they can be happy together. Or maybe she hates him but finds him easy to manipulate.

But it's tough to say. It strikes me that it's just as possible for Sansa to continue to manipulate Sweetrobin and maybe turn him against LF as well to try and regain her power, but unfortunately it's my guess that he's not long for this world. Maybe the whole Lothor Brune/Mya Stone/Myranda Royce relationship will present Sansa an opportunity as well?

I guess it's important for me to note...I'm reading ASOIAF with the assumption that the Starks will eventually regain power, and that Ned's quote about "when winter comes the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" will be vital for the remaining Starks. So I try to view Sansa's arc through that prism, and look for a situation where she can bring her own skills and abilities to the table to help the Stark cause. Additionally, I've always sort of seen Sansa as being on a Queenly path if that makes sense. You might see it differently, but I've always seen her experiences with Joffrey, Cersei, the Hound, and now LF as preparing her to be some sort of UberQueen type figure who is smart, nice, beautiful, but not naive with a proper level of cynicism to boot as well. I also view her as most definitely being the Younger Queen in the Maegi's prophecy to Cersei. So I'll admit I'm sort of biased with how I interpret her arc haha.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Ned's bones are soon to be in the clutches of fucking lady Dustin, who makes Ramsay look like a Maester.

What now?

Her baby brothers are dead, from her Dad's ward. They were flayed and paraded around for the Realm to see. Her Mother and Brother are dead, in her uncles fucking wedding! And why did all this happen? Because Sansa loved Joffrey. I forgive her, in truth I never condenmed her, but will Sansa forgive herself? She knows Ned's head dropped because of her actions, I don't see how you can forgive youself for that nor how you can abandon family duty honor, espically when she hears word of Arya Bolton.

There are a plethora of events that could be considered to have an integral place in the causal chain that led to Ned's execution and the War of the Five Kings(and its aftermath), including (but not limited to): Robert's Rebellion (and whomever one blames for that), Littlefinger's schemepocalypse (aided and abetted by one Lysa Arryn, formerly Lysa Tully - what was that about "Family, Duty, Honor"?), and the utter incompetence of a man who went to King's Landing under the explicit command of taking the realm "in hand", as it were. To lay all of these events upon Sansa's shoulders is inaccurate, however much one forgives her.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

What now?

Bitch freaks me out

“Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister’s bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard’s bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs.”

Theon did not understand. “His … his bones … ?”

Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile, a smile that reminded him of Ramsay’s. “Catelyn Tully dispatched Lord Eddard’s bones north before the Red Wedding, but your iron uncle seized Moat Cailin and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps, they will get no farther than Barrowton.” She threw one last lingering look at the likeness of Eddard Stark. “We are done here.”

ehehe *shudder*

There are a plethora of events that could be considered to have an integral place in the causal chain that led to Ned's execution and the War of the Five Kings(and its aftermath), including (but not limited to): Robert's Rebellion (and whomever one blames for that), Littlefinger's schemepocalypse (aided and abetted by one Lysa Arryn, formerly Lysa Tully - what was that about "Family, Duty, Honor"?), and the utter incompetence of a man who went to King's Landing under the explicit command of taking the realm "in hand", as it were. To lay all of these events upon Sansa's shoulders is inaccurate, however much one forgives her.

To lay Ned going to Kingslanding is very much accurate. Ned would have reufused Robert if it weren't for Sansa's hand. Seriously I came to this realization about a week ago, 75% of stuff that goes down in Westeros is because of Sansa.

[Lady Lea]

I want Sansa to be happy and have puppies and stuff, but that would be desecrating her dead families name. Family Duty Honor. Princess Sansa has a duty to the Realm. She knows of the Lannisters stealing the crown, she knows the sketchy Tyrells, she knows "daddy" Petyr killed Jon and wrote the letter, etc. In the grand scheme of things Sansa's happiness means nothing, no one ever gets what they truly want nor should they anyways. Their's bigger fish in the sea. The words Family Duty Honor are special, they sum up the Tully strength, ambition, and good natureness. Thanks to her sad story and awful environment, the Starks now have a Game of Thrones player; and Winter is Coming

I can't agree, Gingerly Grumkin. Why does she have a duty to the Realm? If you consider her a Princess, then she is a Princess of the North. She has no duty to out Lannisters or Tyrells. And she's not a Tully either, no matter how much she looks like Catelyn. She's a Stark. If she has a duty it is to her brothers and sister, and to try and get back Winterfell, but for all she knows, they are all dead and Winterfell is infested with Boltons. She's a free agent now. I disagree that she should sacrifice her happiness and never want anything for herself. I think that is the worst thing that could happen to Sansa at the end of the books, to become a pawn. She can be a player, she can decide her own fate. She's the eldest in the family rn, and the only one with any political savvy. I think she can make the Starks great again, but not by being submissive.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

To lay Ned going to Kingslanding is very much accurate. Ned would have reufused Robert if it weren't for Sansa's hand. Seriously I came to this realization about a week ago, 75% of stuff that goes down in Westeros is because of Sansa.

I don't agree. This was still a decision that Ned made; the fact that he may have taken Sansa (a child) into account is irrelevant. Assining the lion's share of the blame for what has happened in the series, to date, to any one character is probably erroneous in its simplicity, but if any character merits the honor, it is undoubtedly Littlefinger.

With regards to the Lady Dustin, would it be fair to characterize your statement that she, "makes Ramsay look like a maester," as hyperbolic? Ramsay pretty clearly represents the flaying edge of depravity in this Song.

[Lady Lea]

This thread is going too fast! lol

Her Mother and Brother are dead, in her uncles fucking wedding! And why did all this happen? Because Sansa loved Joffrey. I forgive her, in truth I never condenmed her, but will Sansa forgive herself? She knows Ned's head dropped because of her actions, I don't see how you can forgive youself for that nor how you can abandon family duty honor, espically when she hears word of Arya Bolton.

I don't think Sansa ever blamed herself, and nor should she. Her having a crush on Joff had nothing to do with anything. Ned lost his head because he went snooping around Cersei's business, and then told her he knew everything, then trusted LF, then refused Renly's offer, then blahblahblah. He lost his head because he was a "traitor". Not because she told Cersei they were leaving. In fact even Cersei only wanted him to take the black. It was Joff (manipulated by LF) who thought it would be fun to cut off his head. Besides it was Ned who agreed to their bethrotal without even paying attention to what Joff really was like. I don't think she has anything to blame herself for.

Now, as to hearing about Arya (and she won't know it's not really Arya, will she? or will LF tell her?) I'm very curious to see what she would do.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I agree....Ned chose to be Hand because of his Bromance with Robert. Ned chose to marry Sansa off like a cheap horse to Joffrey without ever once considering what he was like before agreeing to it. Ned chose to blab to Cersei about his carnal knowledge of her children and bedroom activities. Ned chose to hang about and take LF's advice when he should've packed up and left ASAP. Ned chose to ignore everyone else and back Stannis when he was flat out TOLD to back Renly (who seriously would've made an OK king...better than the Lannisters anyways). Ned chose to back his insane wife in regards to her kidnapping Tyrion. Ned CHOSE to make every decision he did.

[butterbumps!]

To lay Ned going to Kingslanding is very much accurate. Ned would have reufused Robert if it weren't for Sansa's hand. Seriously I came to this realization about a week ago, 75% of stuff that goes down in Westeros is because of Sansa.

Just so I understand this. You're positing that 75% of the subsequent events happen because Sansa was to marry Joffrey? Does it mitigate the blame in your analysis that Sansa is not actually the party that made this agreement in the first place? If I recall, Ned and Robert made the agreement, but Ned couldn't refuse the position of Hand, as an adjacent, but non-causally related factor, as this would raise suspicion and possibly end up even worse for everyone.

[brashcandy]

I guess it's important for me to note...I'm reading ASOIAF with the assumption that the Starks will eventually regain power, and that Ned's quote about "when winter comes the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" will be vital for the remaining Starks. So I try to view Sansa's arc through that prism, and look for a situation where she can bring her own skills and abilities to the table to help the Stark cause. Additionally, I've always sort of seen Sansa as being on a Queenly path if that makes sense. You might see it differently, but I've always seen her experiences with Joffrey, Cersei, the Hound, and now LF as preparing her to be some sort of UberQueen type figure who is smart, nice, beautiful, but not naive with a proper level of cynicism to boot as well. I also view her as most definitely being the Younger Queen in the Maegi's prophecy to Cersei. So I'll admit I'm sort of biased with how I interpret her arc haha.

:) I sympathise with this view. Sansa has spent the majority of the series having her (idealistic)aspirations to be Queen stripped from her, but at the same time coming to a truer (more realistic) understanding of what it means to rule, and the kind of Queen she would want to be. I just don't think her path to power will be through another political marriage, but of course that's only my opinion.

[bloodymime]

Just so I understand this. You're positing that 75% of the subsequent events happen because Sansa was to marry Joffrey? Does it mitigate the blame in your analysis that Sansa is not actually the party that made this agreement in the first place? If I recall, Ned and Robert made the agreement, but Ned couldn't refuse the position of Hand, as an adjacent, but non-causally related factor, as this would raise suspicion and possibly end up even worse for everyone.

She used her mental powers to force Ned to say yes, while we're at it she used them to force Robert to ask in the first place.

I'd also heard she had woken the Others with her singing. So.. there's that as well.

[Lyanna Stark]

Entering something for your consideration: checking through Jaime's AFFC chapters I came upon Emmon Frey going on about needing a larger garrison at Riverrun and then eventually it ended with him saying "To be sure. Riverrun is mine, and no man shall ever take it from me." Interesting choice of words no? If we assume that no man will take Riverrun, how about a woman? That leaves UnCat or Sansa fairly nearby. And if it ends up being UnCat taking it for the Tullys, if Sansa learns that the Tullys are once more at Riverrun, would she consider going there perhaps?

As I tend to agree with Brash that Arya may go north due to the debacle with fake!Arya, what about Sansa? Will she enter the fray that is the Riverlands? She's the goal or Brienne's failed quest, and Jaime seems to hope that Brienne finds her as well. UnCat is all about her daughters so I wonder?

[Lady Lea]

As I tend to agree with Brash that Arya may go north due to the debacle with fake!Arya, what about Sansa? Will she enter the fray that is the Riverlands? She's the goal or Brienne's failed quest, and Jaime seems to hope that Brienne finds her as well. UnCat is all about her daughters so I wonder?

Hm I don't think Arya will care that much (she already heard the news that someone passing as Arya got married to the Bastard) but Sansa will probably try to do something. Does UnCat know about the fake Arya?

[Lyanna Stark]

I guess it's important for me to note...I'm reading ASOIAF with the assumption that the Starks will eventually regain power, and that Ned's quote about "when winter comes the lone wolf dies while the pack survives" will be vital for the remaining Starks. So I try to view Sansa's arc through that prism, and look for a situation where she can bring her own skills and abilities to the table to help the Stark cause.

Sansa's foils so far have been arranged marriages though. That's what she's been stuck with over and over again, and it has brought her nothing but pain. On the meta level, the Starks are in for a come back, but if we look at Sansa's individual arc, she's been all about the marriages and why they have been bad for her. It's also been about how she's realised that as a married woman to a man with more power, and without ruling in her own right, she is reduced to becoming a claim only. Her own personality does not matter in this.

In marrying Harry, Sansa would once again turn herself into a claim. I am not sure why people think she will be able to rule through him, since not even Genna Lannister rules through her Frey husband. Sure, she occasionally bosses him around, but she cannot order him to take up arms against anyone. I just spent some time with Jaime's AFFC chapters and there is nothing in there hinting at Genna doing anything like that. In fact, while she is formidable, I wonder how happy she must be married off to that terrible stupid Frey and gaining not very much from it. She doesn't even particularly want Riverrun. Even the Queen of Thorn's power is limited. She has no access to hard power and cannot raise Highgarden's banners.

This means I am honestly confused why people think Sansa will somehow by magic come out as herself and Harry will by magic raise the swords of the Vale for her and they will all rush north. It sounds like Viserys' tales to Dany, to be honest. Especially as the South is being hit by

a. Winter

b. Aegon the Fake

c. Rearming of the Faith

It seems to me they have enough trouble and then some without going to war with the north.

Hm I don't think Arya will care that much (she already heard the news that someone passing as Arya got married to the Bastard) but Sansa will probably try to do something. Does UnCat know about the fake Arya?

An interesting thought. What do you think Sansa will do? If she hears about it, will LF tell her that it's a fake Arya? He almost has to to keep Sansa on board with the claim Winterfell scheme.

[Grail King]

Ned was convinced to goto KL by Cat after receiving the bogus letter from her sister about the Lannister's killing her husband.

Ned wasn't comfortable about the betrothal, but brought both girls along for more or less educating them in courtly ways.

Ned got himself killed because of his mercy and because of Cersei and LF back stabbing, Sansa is maybe 1% responsible and again it was more to due with her being naive then anything else.

I am one who thinks the resurgent of the Starks will fall on Sansa, but all the Starks are important for the saving of the North and possibly the realm.

Sansa is Ned's daughter, she will more than likely take the duty of Stark over her own happiness, a bittersweet depending which end we look at it.

[Lady Lea]

An interesting thought. What do you think Sansa will do? If she hears about it, will LF tell her that it's a fake Arya? He almost has to to keep Sansa on board with the claim Winterfell scheme.

I don't know! If she thinks it's Arya and learns of what Ramsay is like she will probably want to save her. Maybe she will buy LF's idea that she can only win Winterfell by marrying Harry. If she thinks it's not Arya it's no concern of hers, BUT if she finds out that it's her best friend, then she will most likely want to do something.

Sansa is Ned's daughter, she will more than likely take the duty of Stark over her own happiness, a bittersweet depending which end we look at it.

Ack, if this is GRRM's idea of a bittersweet ending then I want a refund.

[bloodymime]

Hm I don't think Arya will care that much (she already heard the news that someone passing as Arya got married to the Bastard) but Sansa will probably try to do something. Does UnCat know about the fake Arya?

I would think not as they're questioning Freys trying to find her. But as kingslayer knows it won't be long before she does as well. I actually had a bit of hare brained idea kingslayer is the hooded man in Winterfell but I doubt the timelines make it possible.

[Raksha the Demon]

I've been wondering if LF isn't trying to recreate the events of his boyhood and what happened with Cat and Brandon, now that he's in the Vale. Except now of course the players have changed, and he's using Sansa and Harry the heir, whilst LF is the one with the power. I remember Lyanna Stark noted a while back how LF was being deliberately derogatory to Harry and setting him up to Sansa as an easy conquest. Let's imagine that Harry is now playing the role of the young LF. Hopelessly charmed by this young beautiful girl, but her love lies elsewhere. Could this be what LF has been plotting all along. A game within a game, moving the pieces into a position where he believes he can't lose? He's simultaneously playing the roles of Brandon Stark and Hoster Tully - lover and father - and how could you possibly fail with that amount of power? This time there's no room for error: he's told Sansa that young girls are happier with older men, he's grooming her sexually, and he's set up Harry as a kind of playboy knight, not like the sophisticated mentor she can depend on.

But Harry seems much closer to Brandon Stark than he does to the young Littlefinger. Brandon and Harry are both young Golden Boy types, handsome jock types, seducers even at young ages (Harry supposedly has already sired two bastards even though he's not much older than Sansa, Brandon broke Barbrey Dustin's heart and probably seduced and abandoned Ashara Dayne), used to being the Prom King and big man on campus, while poor young Petyr Baelish was the undersized nerd nursing unrequited love for the foster-sister who looked on him like a little brother. Brandon was the Heir to Winterfell, Harry is the probable Heir to Arryn unless you believe that none of the Arryn bannermen know how fragile little Robert is. Brandon had a father who literally died trying to save him; Harry has an adoptive mother/guardian who actually insists he not marry someone unless he agrees with the choice (Lady Waynwood seems to care about Harry's well-being and future); young Petyr was sort of the poor relation at Riverrun.

Maybe Littlefinger is setting up a game where his Cat-surrogate beguiles the Brandon-surrogate (Harry) according to Littlefinger, eventually marrying the Brandon-surrogate and then allowing Littlefinger to kill him after he gives Sansa a son. In this scenario, Littlefinger would ultimately get revenge on a Brandon-surrogate and reclaim his Cat-surrogate, and the power of the Eyrie, by stepping in and marrying the young widow and being Lord Protector to her son.

I also wonder if Littlefinger has designs on Riverrun as well. If Edmure and his unborn child don't make it (and Littlefinger might be able to assure such a thing, depending on how far his influence goes), then Sansa has a strong claim on Riverrun after (as I think LF believes; and isn't he technically the overlord of the Riverlands or something?) the Freys/Lannisters are made to relinquish it. And what better revenge could Littlefinger envision than to eventually make his own son by Sansa Lord of Riverrun? Riverrun was where Littlefinger loved, lost, and was humiliated and cast out. It's a place that would probably have tremendous emotional resonance for him; and to see his own half-Tully son, the son he would have wanted to have from Cat, installed as Lord of Riverrun, could be a powerful lure for Littlefinger. (though I'm not sure he could do that and still remain as Lord Protector of the Eyrie/Vale) Now I've got myself wondering whether LF's supposed power grab in the Vale is a stepping stone to Riverrun instead of Winterfell, especially since Riverrun is closer and not snowed in (yet)...

[Lyanna Stark]

I don't know! If she thinks it's Arya and learns of what Ramsay is like she will probably want to save her. Maybe she will buy LF's idea that she can only win Winterfell by marrying Harry. If she thinks it's not Arya it's no concern of hers, BUT if she finds out that it's her best friend, then she will most likely want to do something.

True, but Sansa cannot marry Harry due to already being married to Tyrion, so that road is closed to her at present. She can remain Alayne Stone and be betrothed, but marry she cannot do. Even if Harry should bring her all the swords in the Vale, the Golden Company and the Black Goat of Qohor on a leash.