From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Lyanna Stark]

I also wonder if Littlefinger has designs on Riverrun as well. If Edmure and his unborn child don't make it (and Littlefinger might be able to assure such a thing, depending on how far his influence goes), then Sansa has a strong claim on Riverrun after (as I think LF believes; and isn't he technically the overlord of the Riverlands or something?) the Freys/Lannisters are made to relinquish it. And what better revenge could Littlefinger envision than to eventually make his own son by Sansa Lord of Riverrun? Riverrun was where Littlefinger loved, lost, and was humiliated and cast out. It's a place that would probably have tremendous emotional resonance for him; and to see his own half-Tully son, the son he would have wanted to have from Cat, installed as Lord of Riverrun, could be a powerful lure for Littlefinger. (though I'm not sure he could do that and still remain as Lord Protector of the Eyrie/Vale) Now I've got myself wondering whether LF's supposed power grab in the Vale is a stepping stone to Riverrun instead of Winterfell, especially since Riverrun is closer and not snowed in (yet)...

In the short run, it is unlikely LF can do much about Edmure Tully though as Jaime sent him west guarded by 400 swords, so I'd say it will take a lot for that to fail and the road from Riverrun to Casterly Rock isn't that long. Jaime also meant for him to be a captive at Casterly Rock, so he's likely to at least be moderately safe there.

Although, should Cersei return to Casterly Rock as its Lady, that might mean the end for poor Edmure!

Roslin is still at the Twins I believe without having given birth to hers and Edmure's child.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

I don't agree. This was still a decision that Ned made; the fact that he may have taken Sansa (a child) into account is irrelevant. Assining the lion's share of the blame for what has happened in the series, to date, to any one character is probably erroneous in its simplicity, but if any character merits the honor, it is undoubtedly Littlefinger.

Just so I understand this. You're positing that 75% of the subsequent events happen because Sansa was to marry Joffrey? Does it mitigate the blame in your analysis that Sansa is not actually the party that made this agreement in the first place? If I recall, Ned and Robert made the agreement, but Ned couldn't refuse the position of Hand, as an adjacent, but non-causally related factor, as this would raise suspicion and possibly end up even worse for everyone.

1. Jon Arryn is dead, Robert is scared. There is only one person who can help him, but they left on bad terms. To make the offer Robert needs to raise the ante. Sansa Stark's hand

2. Starks mistrust the Lannisters and vice versa. Lysa's letter and Bran's fall. But Sansa's testimony of Joff vs Mycha tipped the scale

3. Sansa says "he's nothing like that drunk father of his". Ned now knows!

4. Sansa tells Ned's plans to Cersei. Robert dies! (Stannis and Renly now rise)

5. Ned's not afraid to die, but seeing Sansa on the dais is too much for him. Ned confesses his "treason"

6. Tyrells question her about Joffrey, causing Lancel to join the KG and mayhaps Joffrey's death (2 kings because of Sansa!)

7. Tyrion's married! And because of that Jon is now a Stark and legally King in the North

8. Watched and is semi responsible for Lysa Arryn's death and falsly testified freeing Petyr of blame

There are many players in GOT, but these eight are some of the most important things that have happened. It may not be fare to blame these things on Sansa, but it is what it is.

With regards to the Lady Dustin, would it be fair to characterize your statement that she, "makes Ramsay look like a maester," as hyperbolic? Ramsay pretty clearly represents the flaying edge of depravity in this Song.

I jest when I try to deliver a point, and my humor is often dark and not funny. I was just saying Dustin is a no go. (Gregor is way worse then Ramsay)

I can't agree, Gingerly Grumkin. Why does she have a duty to the Realm? If you consider her a Princess, then she is a Princess of the North. She has no duty to out Lannisters or Tyrells. And she's not a Tully either, no matter how much she looks like Catelyn. She's a Stark. If she has a duty it is to her brothers and sister, and to try and get back Winterfell, but for all she knows, they are all dead and Winterfell is infested with Boltons. She's a free agent now. I disagree that she should sacrifice her happiness and never want anything for herself. I think that is the worst thing that could happen to Sansa at the end of the books, to become a pawn. She can be a player, she can decide her own fate. She's the eldest in the family rn, and the only one with any political savvy. I think she can make the Starks great again, but not by being submissive.

I have no wish for her to be submissive.

She owes the Realm because of her actions and her familes actions. She is a princess of the North and thousands of people cling their hopes of freedom and justice on the Northern crown. She is a Tully, I don't understand how she's not. 50% of her is Tully. Hoster's hard work and Catelyn's sweat and pain run through her blood.

Sandor is a free agent because the Clegans are nothing. Starks on the other hand are the heros and savior of the realm, and Ms.Family Duty Honor can't forget that

This thread is going too fast! lol

I don't think Sansa ever blamed herself, and nor should she. Her having a crush on Joff had nothing to do with anything. Ned lost his head because he went snooping around Cersei's business, and then told her he knew everything, then trusted LF, then refused Renly's offer, then blahblahblah. He lost his head because he was a "traitor". Not because she told Cersei they were leaving. In fact even Cersei only wanted him to take the black. It was Joff (manipulated by LF) who thought it would be fun to cut off his head. Besides it was Ned who agreed to their bethrotal without even paying attention to what Joff really was like. I don't think she has anything to blame herself for.

Now, as to hearing about Arya (and she won't know it's not really Arya, will she? or will LF tell her?) I'm very curious to see what she would do.

Yea, I think Arya/Jeyne will make Sansa show her wolf fangs.

Everything else my list will tell.

P.S. Any flaws on my list please tell me

[Lady Lea]

I would think not as they're questioning Freys trying to find her. But as kingslayer knows it won't be long before she does as well. I actually had a bit of hare brained idea kingslayer is the hooded man in Winterfell but I doubt the timelines make it possible.

Hm I think I phrased my question wrong. So does she know that Arya is fake and is therefore questioning Freys as to where the real one is, or has she not heard the news that Arya is supposed to be the Bastard's new wife? (lol this is very confusing)

It seems weird if she has not heard the news of the marriage. A lot of people know. There's also the Ghost of High Heart although maybe she isn't collaborating with UnCat...

[butterbumps!]

1. Jon Arryn is dead, Robert is scared. There is only one person who can help him, but they left on bad terms. To make the offer Robert needs to raise the ante. Sansa Stark's hand

2. Starks mistrust the Lannisters and vice versa. Lysa's letter and Bran's fall. But Sansa's testimony of Joff vs Mycha tipped the scale

3. Sansa says "he's nothing like that drunk father of his". Ned now knows!

4. Sansa tells Ned's plans to Cersei. Robert dies! (Stannis and Renly now rise)

5. Ned's not afraid to die, but seeing Sansa on the dais is too much for him. Ned confesses his "treason"

6. She doesn't do much in acok, theres some talk of warging Sandor and causing him to flee, and she talked to the "hens" when Cersei left but that's not that political

7. Tyrells question her about Joffrey, causing Lancel to join the KG and mayhaps Joffrey's death (2 kings because of Sansa!)

8. Tyrion's married! And because of that Jon is now a Stark and legally King in the North

9. Watched and is semi responsible for Lysa Arryn's death and falsly testified freeing Petyr of blame

My sweet Grumkin pal. Why did you leave out the major step of "Ned goes to Cersei, declares his intentions, thereby forewarning her of the danger he is going to pose to her"? Sansa tells Cersei some details, but she already knows about the move against because NED told her.

My issue with how you phrased that first post was that you blamed Sansa for arranging the marriage to Joffrey. That wasn't her brilliant plan, that was Robert's, and Ned agreed to it. So I can't place blame on Sansa for arranging to marriage, and I don't believe that the arrangement is what precipitated everything that follows.

also- what? Sansa warged Sandor?

[Grail King]

Also if Sansa wants to free herself she will need to make some dangerous decisions on trusting people, now that she is on the ground it may be a little easier to start looking, also she may start hearing news that was easier kept from her when she was above.

Who do I think she can trust, Mya Stone, Bronze Royce, and this is my thought the Black Fish I think he's heading there.

I'm not as sure about Lothar or Myranda, the Mad Mouse has his agenda and I can't remember who else is there at the moment.

Since it seems Sansa is the only Stark without magic I think she may rely a bit more on faith but I don't know if there is a Gods wood in the Vale though if they had one up in the clouds I see not to have one below.

[Lady Lea]

Gingerly Grumkin, this is not directed at you, but your post made me think of something. Why does everyone says that Sansa is half Tully (and often that she's more Tully than Stark) and that she has to mind their words, but nobody thinks "Cat is half Whent, she has to also be a Whent", or that Robert was an Estermont, or that Sam and Shireen are Florents, etc? Westeros takes into consideration the father's family, not the mother's. No matter how much people think Sansa is like the Tullys (and I for one think she's Stark to the bone) she IS a Stark.

[Tagganaro]

:) I sympathise with this view. Sansa has spent the majority of the series having her (idealistic)aspirations to be Queen stripped from her, but at the same time coming to a truer (more realistic) understanding of what it means to rule, and the kind of Queen she would want to be. I just don't think her path to power will be through another political marriage, but of course that's only my opinion.

Sansa's foils so far have been arranged marriages though. That's what she's been stuck with over and over again, and it has brought her nothing but pain. On the meta level, the Starks are in for a come back, but if we look at Sansa's individual arc, she's been all about the marriages and why they have been bad for her. It's also been about how she's realised that as a married woman to a man with more power, and without ruling in her own right, she is reduced to becoming a claim only. Her own personality does not matter in this.

In marrying Harry, Sansa would once again turn herself into a claim. I am not sure why people think she will be able to rule through him, since not even Genna Lannister rules through her Frey husband. Sure, she occasionally bosses him around, but she cannot order him to take up arms against anyone. I just spent some time with Jaime's AFFC chapters and there is nothing in there hinting at Genna doing anything like that. In fact, while she is formidable, I wonder how happy she must be married off to that terrible stupid Frey and gaining not very much from it. She doesn't even particularly want Riverrun. Even the Queen of Thorn's power is limited. She has no access to hard power and cannot raise Highgarden's banners.

This means I am honestly confused why people think Sansa will somehow by magic come out as herself and Harry will by magic raise the swords of the Vale for her and they will all rush north. It sounds like Viserys' tales to Dany, to be honest. Especially as the South is being hit by

a. Winter

b. Aegon the Fake

c. Rearming of the Faith

It seems to me they have enough trouble and then some without going to war with the north.

Well, I think the key difference would be that Sansa has grown and matured and with all she's learned she would be capable of exerting control over Harry. I have also just reread AFFC and the Riverrun chapter is unclear- Genna does in fact seem to order Emmon around a lot and even dismisses him from her and Jaime's conversation. Additionally, Jaime tells Tom of Sevens that his aunt is the only one he has to worry about pleasing. So I don't know, you could just as easily be right as well, it's really unclear.

Look, it's a novel. it's not gonna be fun at all if Sansa is stuck in the Vale with an army that won't move because it's too cold out lol. I gotta asssume that the Vale army has become Chekhov's Knights or something like that and will eventually leave the castle. It is made clear that Bronze Yohn and several other important lords wanted nothing more than to leave the Vale and join Robb's cause. Lysa kept them under control, but Sweetrobin can't and I imagine a young guy like Harry will want the glory of battle, so it's a possibility for Sansa to manipulate him/push him and the Vale to battle. I have to imagine that's been a major part of LF's plan all along. I don't think Sansa will have to "command" Harry at all, he'll do it for her and that might be the beauty of the plan. Maybe he'll die in the process and leave her back as Lady of Winterfell, with claims to the Vale and Riverrun as well lol?

As for the political marriage and how much pain and suffering it has brought Sansa, I certainly agree. That's why I'd like to see the situation somewhat reversed and have Sansa actually gain a lot from a political marriage, by using her new-found cynicism and intelligence to avoid falling into a Joffrey situation again. But yes, I'm only throwing it out there as a possibility. There's a lot of plot threads hanging over the Vale and Sansa and LF, so there's a ton of directions George can take it.

[Grail King]

I don't know! If she thinks it's Arya and learns of what Ramsay is like she will probably want to save her. Maybe she will buy LF's idea that she can only win Winterfell by marrying Harry. If she thinks it's not Arya it's no concern of hers, BUT if she finds out that it's her best friend, then she will most likely want to do something.

Ack, if this is GRRM's idea of a bittersweet ending then I want a refund.

I'm talking for Sansa only, there will be MANY bittersweet endings not the least is the Starks save the world, but die out doing so.

[Lady Lea]

I'm talking for Sansa only, there will be MANY bittersweet endings not the least is the Starks save the world, but die out doing so.

;) Yes I got that. I meant for Sansa too. I think Arya will die, anyway. But this sounds more like a tragic ending for Sansa (imo) than a bittersweet one in any case... :(

[Grail King]

I'm talking for Sansa only, there will be MANY bittersweet endings not the least is the Starks save the world, but die out doing so.

Sorry thought you were replying to me.

[Grail King]

Sorry thought you were replying to me.

Disregard I have too many post open.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

My sweet Grumkin pal. Why did you leave out the major step of "Ned goes to Cersei, declares his intentions, thereby forewarning her of the danger he is going to pose to her"? Sansa tells Cersei some details, but she already knows about the move against because NED told her.

That was already during Robert's hunt. Sansa telling Cersei Ned's plans is the reason for Robert's wine.

My issue with how you phrased that first post was that you blamed Sansa for arranging the marriage to Joffrey. That wasn't her brilliant plan, that was Robert's, and Ned agreed to it. So I can't place blame on Sansa for arranging to marriage, and I don't believe that the arrangement is what precipitated everything that follows.

I didn't mean to. (Ned didn't really agree to it, asking someone if they want their grandson to be king is a Vito Corleone offer. They can't refuse) However Sansa did beg saying "I want him!" (then snitched to Cersei) and got Lady killed becasue of her testimony, and (though I see no option for her) she stood at the Sept and watched the Lord who's not afraid to die confess his treasons because of her.

What don't you agree with?

ETA. Yeah, I'm lazy and controled copied my list from another post. And forgot that Sandor is not important. But, Sandor's not that scared of fire (fight with Beric) but he totally acted like Hodor during Blackwater. Arya and Jon start warging around this time and Bran's power get's stronger. At the same time Greywolf killed unlce Westerling (warging mayhaps) and I don't know what Rickon's doing but I bet it's got something to do with his wolf

Gingerly Grumkin, this is not directed at you, but your post made me think of something. Why does everyone says that Sansa is half Tully (and often that she's more Tully than Stark) and that she has to mind their words, but nobody thinks "Cat is half Whent, she has to also be a Whent", or that Robert was an Estermont, or that Sam and Shireen are Florents, etc? Westeros takes into consideration the father's family, not the mother's. No matter how much people think Sansa is like the Tullys (and I for one think she's Stark to the bone) she IS a Stark.

I don't know what the Whent's are like but I'm sure Cat's got some of it (unless their ass' in which case we'll give those genes to Edmure and Lysa)

As for the Folrents, I see it in Sam through passive and overly friendly characteristics unlike the strict, stop complaining Tarlys

Sansa talks like a Tully. She's bitchy and snaps at people like Cat "Sansa was sure she didn't know why Arya does anything" "of course your fighting in the vaguard" and she's smart, liying comes easier to her then Jon or Ned. When they tell the Baratheon's 1/2 ass answers Sansa says "It's bad luck to kill a guy on your name day"

[Lady Lea]

I don't know what the Whent's are like but I'm sure Cat's got some of it (unless their ass' in which case we'll give those genes to Edmure and Lysa)

As for the Folrents, I see it in Sam through passive and overly friendly characteristics unlike the strict, stop complaining Tarlys

Sansa talks like a Tully. She's bitchy and snaps at people like Cat "Sansa was sure she didn't know why Arya does anything" "of course your fighting in the vaguard" and she's smart, liying comes easier to her then Jon or Ned. When they tell the Baratheon's 1/2 ass answers Sansa says "It's bad luck to kill a guy on your name day"

But Cat is seen like the quintessential Tully. Do you think the Florents are passive and friendly? I think they are bitter and shrewd, like Selyse and the Florent who tried to get Stannis to give up his claim, and the Florent who was a commander at the Blackwater, and the Florents who are always trying to take down the Tyrells. Sansa is a terrible liar, she is totally transparent at AGOT and the best part of ACOK, she even admits it in the serpentine steps when she tries to lie to the Hound and Boros as to why she's in the godswood at that time of night. She's good at keeping quiet, but not so much lying (she gets better though, and who wouldn't. I'd say Arya is the better liar. She's lying to the faceless men through her teeth!). And besides, we never see much of Lyanna, Benjen and Brandon but I'm willing to bet that Brandon (the "wolf" Stark) was a pretty good liar. lol do you think Sansa is bitchy? I think she's much nicer than Arya.

[Lyanna Stark]

Well, I think the key difference would be that Sansa has grown and matured and with all she's learned she would be capable of exerting control over Harry. I have also just reread AFFC and the Riverrun chapter is unclear- Genna does in fact seem to order Emmon around a lot and even dismisses him from her and Jaime's conversation. Additionally, Jaime tells Tom of Sevens that his aunt is the only one he has to worry about pleasing. So I don't know, you could just as easily be right as well, it's really unclear.

Oh absolutely, but Genna still can't control or march any armies anywhere. And Genna is a Lannister while Emmon is only a Frey. Harold may be born Hardyng, but on Sweetrobin's death he will be THE Arryn, which means his rank will be equal to Sansa's, hence she can't bully him around based on the same reason: that Emmon is being bossed around by the Lannisters, which means Tywin.

What I am getting at here is that soft political power and hard power are often two different things. Which is the reason why Littlefinger is often underestimated, due to his lack of hard power. He has no bannermen sworn to him.

Besides, there is one further issue before Sansa could possibly talk her husband Harry the Heir into raising his banners and march through the snow to Winterfell: Tyrion Lannister is still very much alive and so is his marriage to Sansa. Unfortunately perhaps, but that won't go anywhere, which means I think Harry will have to be content with a betrothal to Alayne Stone, but not much more.

Sansa is a terrible liar, she is totally transparent at AGOT and the best part of ACOK, she even admits it in the serpentine steps when she tries to lie to the Hound and Boros as to why she's in the godswood at that time of night.

I'd say Sansa of AFFC is a pretty accomplished liar actually. She lies to Littlefinger, the Lords Declarant and Sweetrobin, within a short space of time. In ASOS she lies to Lysa, too, and even earlier she lies to Tyrion.

[bloodymime]

Hm I think I phrased my question wrong. So does she know that Arya is fake and is therefore questioning Freys as to where the real one is, or has she not heard the news that Arya is supposed to be the Bastard's new wife? (lol this is very confusing)

It seems weird if she has not heard the news of the marriage. A lot of people know. There's also the Ghost of High Heart although maybe she isn't collaborating with UnCat...

Well when they're questioning the Frey drunkard they're actually asking about Sandor, Arya's through in more as an afterthought. This is the end of Storm, it's pretty possible news of Bolton having Arya wouldn't have reached the Riverlands yet.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I have to agree.....Arya was a total bitch. She couldn't think outside of the box half the time and snapped at people she didn't agree with.

Arya is the one with the attitude and is now a cold blooded murderer and yet everyone slams Sansa

[A wilding]

That was already during Robert's hunt. Sansa telling Cersei Ned's plans is the reason for Robert's wine.

I am afraid not. Sansa went to Cersei on the same day as Cersei's coup. Robert was already dying and maybe dead by then.

Ned's talk with Cersei was a couple of days earlier at least, and probably more.

[Edmure Floppy-Fish Tully]

I have to agree.....Arya was a total bitch. She couldn't think outside of the box half the time and snapped at people she didn't agree with.

Arya is the one with the attitude and is now a cold blooded murderer and yet everyone slams Sansa

*sarcasm mode ON

But since Arya uses swords and kills people and is interesting and has actual influence on her life unlike Sansa, she gets a free pass. And is like totally Stark and of the North to boot.

And Sansa is feminine, which is badbadbad.

*sarcasm mode OFF

*rolls eyes

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

in other words: Arya acts like a boy/man

[Gingerly Grumkin]

But Cat is seen like the quintessential Tully. Do you think the Florents are passive and friendly? I think they are bitter and shrewd, like Selyse and the Florent who tried to get Stannis to give up his claim, and the Florent who was a commander at the Blackwater, and the Florents who are always trying to take down the Tyrells. Sansa is a terrible liar, she is totally transparent at AGOT and the best part of ACOK, she even admits it in the serpentine steps when she tries to lie to the Hound and Boros as to why she's in the godswood at that time of night. She's good at keeping quiet, but not so much lying (she gets better though, and who wouldn't. I'd say Arya is the better liar. She's lying to the faceless men through her teeth!). And besides, we never see much of Lyanna, Benjen and Brandon but I'm willing to bet that Brandon (the "wolf" Stark) was a pretty good liar. lol do you think Sansa is bitchy? I think she's much nicer than Arya.

Yeah good call about the Florents, still bitter and shrewd are not Tarly features.

Ok, my Grandpa changed his name to escape the Nazi's let's say his name's Snark. I love my father (I guess lol) so I honor myself by being called Mr. Grumkin. However I still remeber what those Nazi's did to the my Snark family and I would never think about not calling myself a Snark, especially to family.

I think Sansa's an allright liar, when she had to be free for Dontos she says "Not here, this was my Lord Father's room it'll give me nightmares" and Tyrion says "bet" and by now at the end, "Are you my new mommy" "...yes" lol (love that line by the way, it's really a turn to the darkside)

Sansa's pretty bitchy. One of the worst things I read in asoiaf was in the beggining with Sansa, where she reflects on asking her mom if Arya was a bastard like Jon so she won't have to love him. Which is so fucking awful, but a long time ago. When she sees Tyrion dressed sloppy she's like the new doublet looks nice! (though I guess any wife/girlfriend would do that) The buisness with Mycha was distubing, and after being freed by Petyr she get's mad that she must be a bastard, and what's worse that ladies bastard (what's her name? fat chick from the Fingers?)

Arya is totally cute and awsome though. Her jokes are silly and have nothing to do with anything, Sansa really cut's to the bone

I am afraid not. Sansa went to Cersei on the same day as Cersei's coup. Robert was already dying and maybe dead by then.

Ned's talk with Cersei was a couple of days earlier at least, and probably more.

Oh, ok cool thanks. I need a re-read