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From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI


brashcandy

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Ah but that remains to be seen. :) Littlefinger is really dangling Winterfell in front of Sansa despite it being very unlikely that she will come in to it, but he needs her to believe it to play along (or so he thinks). LF thinks Sansa will want a handsome knight to marry and a promise of Winterfell (which no sane person would march on in winter anyway) to be a good "daughter", but he cannot give it to her. Further, Sansa doesn't even want it, since she is fed up with being pawned off for her claim.

So Littlefinger does manipulate her with the Winterfell promise (and in a more nasty way with including her in the Marillion murder and in the Joffrey murder) since the first is supposed to work as a carrot, the latter two sticks to keep her compliant.

Of course, LF doesn't know that Sansa isn't keen on being married off for her claim again and that she even meant to tell Lysa that she refused to marry Sweetrobin. At the moment, she is keeping the truth from LF, on that and on a couple of other things, too. Like that she is still Sansa in her heart, and that she made a connection with Sandor in KL. Three things LF has no idea about.

Maybe 4 I don't think he knows of the hairnet, and we don't know where Sansa has put it.

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Thanks, brashcandy. :D You have once again expressed much more clearly what I could merely hint at here. I did not allow myself to be bold enough in my conclusion. ;)

You're welcome! :) I'd love to hear what others think about her thoughts on that night as well.

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. Can that be read as her almost agreeing with the dying Sandor in her revisionist thinking that he *should* have 'taken her' that night?

Oh that's interesting :) Yeah, it's a bit confusing. What she says is that he left her with nothing but a bloody cloak, so it sounds as though she's resentful that he got something more from the night, and also there's the missing him aspect as well. I would say that her maturity and blossoming sexuality is playing a big role in this particular sentiment. In ASOS when she's with the Tyrell cousins, her memory of the unkiss is a bit childish (oh, if those girls only knew that I had kissed a man like the Hound); but now in AFFC we're seeing an older experienced Sansa (i.e. bastard brave Alayne) who's started to have erotic dreams and desires, so her appreciation of that night is being influenced by the stage she's at in her life. Older Sansa wants more from that night because she understands that there could have been more.

Great post! I wanted to add one more element to this. In Storm, Sansa also says that she would lay awake at night sometimes and wonder if she should have gone with him. This would lend credence to the idea that she is missing his physical presence as well. The statement doesn't have the bitterness attached to his that her later thought on being left nothing but a bloody cloak does. It's as if earlier on, she realizes that she chose not to go yet may be changing how their time together ended by the final chapter in AFFC so that she is slowly shifting her memory to thinking that he left her rather than she chose not to go with him.

Also, brashcandy, WRT to Sandor idealizing their relationship. I think he did do so to a greater degree than Sansa. He brought up the idea that she gave him a song and he bragged about saving her from the riot too. It seemed like he was trying to paint himself in the role of Sansa's knight.

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Kitty: I love the idea this board has brought up before: that Sandor is just as idealistic as Sansa is and his bluster about the world's harsh realities is his way of coping with the dissonance between his ideas and reality.

They both also share an indifference to gore-as shown by Sansa's cool head during the Hand's tourney when the knight from the Vale died in front of her.

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Kitty: I love the idea this board has brought up before: that Sandor is just as idealistic as Sansa is and his bluster about the world's harsh realities is his way of coping with the dissonance between his ideas and reality.

They both also share an indifference to gore-as shown by Sansa's cool head during the Hand's tourney when the knight from the Vale died in front of her.

Oh, yeah, I think he is as idealistic in some ways as she is. His comments with Arya really show it. He's creating a different version of events just as much as Sansa does.

I wonder about Sansa's reaction to gore. During the Hand's tourney, she's watching Ser Hugh die with little reaction yet she has nightmares thinking of Joff's death and the riot. It seems she can be impersonal about violence that is not related to her. It's harder for her to remove herself from gore when it impacts her personally.

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I wonder about Sansa's reaction to gore. During the Hand's tourney, she's watching Ser Hugh die with little reaction yet she has nightmares thinking of Joff's death and the riot. It seems she can be impersonal about violence that is not related to her. It's harder for her to remove herself from gore when it impacts her personally.

But that isn't gore is it? It's trauma-personal danger. She doesn't have nightmare about her father's head or his execution.

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But that isn't gore is it? It's trauma-personal danger. She doesn't have nightmare about her father's head or his execution.

It's trauma, yes. That's what I was trying to say. What started my train of thought was Sansa's reaction to seeing Garlic Breath's hand being cut off.

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After his riot, when they return to the red keep, Sansa is talking about how the Hound cut off a mans hand. Then, later, in her thoughts she recalls him as the man whose breath smelled like garlic.

Oh yeah.

Memory like a sieve I have.

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Great post! I wanted to add one more element to this. In Storm, Sansa also says that she would lay awake at night sometimes and wonder if she should have gone with him. This would lend credence to the idea that she is missing his physical presence as well. The statement doesn't have the bitterness attached to his that her later thought on being left nothing but a bloody cloak does. It's as if earlier on, she realizes that she chose not to go yet may be changing how their time together ended by the final chapter in AFFC so that she is slowly shifting her memory to thinking that he left her rather than she chose not to go with him.

Hmmm, that's true. In ASOS she wonders if she'd been wise, but by AFFC it's all on him. Do you think this is again due to her developing sexuality/maturity? Sandor has moved from the sphere of mere protector/friend into an actual love interest so she's no longer able to "see" things clearly due to this enhanced emotional involvement...

Also, brashcandy, WRT to Sandor idealizing their relationship. I think he did do so to a greater degree than Sansa. He brought up the idea that she gave him a song and he bragged about saving her from the riot too. It seemed like he was trying to paint himself in the role of Sansa's knight.

Agreed. People like to label Sansa as the romantic, but Sandor is just as capable, if not more, of idealising their time together. It's hard to say who's worse here: Sansa who truly believes he kissed her, or Sandor who truly wants to believe that he acted like the dashing knight and was rewarded with a song for it.

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People like to label Sansa as the romantic, but Sandor is just as capable, if not more, of idealising their time together. It's hard to say who's worse here: Sansa who truly believes he kissed her, or Sandor who truly wants to believe that he acted like the dashing knight and was rewarded with a song for it.

Sandor even brags about it to Arya, but Sansa keeps her false memory to herself, treasuring that little secret like something precious. Do you guys think that she will ever actually mention the unkiss to anyone? (and to Sandor?)

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Sandor even brags about it to Arya, but Sansa keeps her false memory to herself, treasuring that little secret like something precious. Do you guys think that she will ever actually mention the unkiss to anyone? (and to Sandor?)

Yes true, the bragging part really underscores Sandor's actions here :) He needs to let another person know, to have that validation, whilst Sansa keeps it to herself. I wonder if it's because Sansa genuinely believes he kissed her, whilst Sandor is desperately trying to sell himself (and Arya) a pretty story?

ETA: We might see her tell Randa or Mya perhaps, but my personal feeling is that this is one secret she'll keep to herself. It's part of the power and mystique of the whole thing.

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Oh, yeah, I think he is as idealistic in some ways as she is. His comments with Arya really show it. He's creating a different version of events just as much as Sansa does.

I wonder about Sansa's reaction to gore. During the Hand's tourney, she's watching Ser Hugh die with little reaction yet she has nightmares thinking of Joff's death and the riot. It seems she can be impersonal about violence that is not related to her. It's harder for her to remove herself from gore when it impacts her personally.

I think it's more that the violence of the tourney is arranged very carefully as a spectator sport and the stakes contested are about honor, technical skill, etc. To her, these are professional warriors fighting other professionals in a gentlemanly way. It's very disciplined, highly authorized by the ruling class/system, and as safe as it can be, all things considered. Contrast that with violence against the weak or an uprising against the social order, which must seem much more "real" and threatening. Tourney violence, though not fake, does seem artificial by comparison. The environment is much more contrived and controlled than the context for spontaneous acts of violence. I suppose what I'm really suggesting is that she is prepared and even expects some forms of violence, but that is largely because it is coded as something else: feats of strength or skill about manly worth.

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That's precisely why it was preposterous. You may call it "reassurance" but Sansa saw it as a plain lie, and she wasn't wrong IMO. Tyrion was trying to sell her an illusion, a fantasy that when the lights are out it suddenly won't matter who he is or what he looks like. That simply isn't true.

It's a nice sentiment, but that's not the truth; all men are not beautiful, or perhaps I should say all men are not desirable to all women. However, just because a man isn't beautiful it doesn't mean that a woman can't be attracted to them, but the onus must be on genuine female desire and free will and not from a compulsion to find all men attractive because of marital duty. That's what the Septa was advocating to Sansa and that's what Sansa rebels against.

I think you have to put the sentence in perspective.

We are talking about a world where arranged marriage is a common practice, and people barely know each other when they get married (see Ned and Catelyn, for example).

So of course not everyone is attracted to anyone immediately, but they have to get to know each other and find their spouse's beauty.

I think that's what Septa Mordane meant: genuine desire and free will are wonderful but realistically when you're stuck in a marriage with an almost complete stranger, things can be not so easy at the beginning. There's a lot of adjustement and compromise to be made.

And in this perspective, I don't think that Tyrion is worse than anyone else: his looks can be off putting at first, but I believe that when you get to know someone, you don't see anymore if they're beautiful or ugly. People are just themselves. It's other things that ultimately get in the way of long-term relationships, not the physical appearance.

And I assume that all wedding nights of arranged marriages between strangers were awkward and slightly uncomfortable, but there's no reason why Tyrion should do any worse than anyone else.

So in this perspective, I think that it's not a preposterous statement at all.

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What (in my view) makes Tyrion's remark so galling is that he is much worse than other men. He could look like a cross between Jaime and Loras and still be repulsive to Sansa because he is a Lannister and because he has forced himself upon her.

If proof is needed (not that I'm implying that you meant it so Natalie) that it is the manner and not the appearance that she dislikes, you need only look to her reaction towards Marillon's advances who is said to be quite attractive.

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What (in my view) makes Tyrion's remark so galling is that he is much worse than other men. He could look like a cross between Jaime and Loras and still be repulsive to Sansa because he is a Lannister and because he has forced himself upon her.

If proof is needed (not that I'm implying that you meant it so Natalie) that it is the manner and not the appearance that she dislikes, you need only look to her reaction towards Marillon's advances who is said to be quite attractive.

Absolutely, I agree!

That's the tragedy of the storyline, I think.

They both have good intentions towards each other but they can't bring themselves to trust each other, Sansa because she wouldn't trust any Lannister, and Tyrion because he believes that Sansa can't keep a secret.

They're both right and both wrong in a way.

Tyrion probably should have known better, because he keeps deluding himself into thinking that it was an arranged marriage (and in this case his speech would have been completely reasonable), while it was forced. I don't think he ever completely understood how Cersei and Joffrey had abused Sansa during her time in KL.

He only once witnessed a beating and stopped it, but I don't think he knows about everything that happened before.

Sansa on the other hand, if she had been older maybe, could have understood that Tyrion was estranging himself more and more from the rest of the Lannisters and therefore he could have become her ally.

I think that's one of GRRM's best use of the POV's structure: we readers know that both characters have their good reasons for their behaviour, but still they can't reach any communication.

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I think you have to put the sentence in perspective.

We are talking about a world where arranged marriage is a common practice, and people barely know each other when they get married (see Ned and Catelyn, for example).

So of course not everyone is attracted to anyone immediately, but they have to get to know each other and find their spouse's beauty.

I think that's what Septa Mordane meant: genuine desire and free will are wonderful but realistically when you're stuck in a marriage with an almost complete stranger, things can be not so easy at the beginning. There's a lot of adjustement and compromise to be made.

And in this perspective, I don't think that Tyrion is worse than anyone else: his looks can be off putting at first, but I believe that when you get to know someone, you don't see anymore if they're beautiful or ugly. People are just themselves. It's other things that ultimately get in the way of long-term relationships, not the physical appearance.

And I assume that all wedding nights of arranged marriages between strangers were awkward and slightly uncomfortable, but there's no reason why Tyrion should do any worse than anyone else.

So in this perspective, I think that it's not a preposterous statement at all.

What you've described above is typical arranged marriage where both people are committed to making the marriage work. Sansa's "marriage" was a bold-faced sham that took place under duress, and she had no desire to marry Tyrion, much less get to know him better as a husband and a lover. I would consider any man making a claim to be the Knight of Flowers in bed (unless you're the actual Knight of Flowers) to be ridiculous, but Tyrion takes the cake because he knows he's just forced this girl into a marriage and is now adding insult to injury by invoking the kind of man he knows she desires in order to further his advances.

Winter's Knight has already expounded on the fact that Tyrion is a Lannister and why this is such an unbearable marriage for Sansa, but I think it needs to be said that the other huge reason is because of Tyrion's looks. Sansa is repulsed by him; there is no getting around it. Every time she has seen Tyrion it's the one thing she always notices first and that's why when she tries to even find the slightest bit of desire for him on the bedding night she fails. If a woman cannot bear to even have you touch her or imagine you kissing her then it's game over. And I don't see why Sansa should have to come to terms with Tyrion's looks if they disgust her to that extent. I know people in real life whom I would never ever want. It doesn't mean that someone else might not be able to find their beauty or be willing to get to know them, but I simply cannot.

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Hmmm, that's true. In ASOS she wonders if she'd been wise, but by AFFC it's all on him. Do you think this is again due to her developing sexuality/maturity? Sandor has moved from the sphere of mere protector/friend into an actual love interest so she's no longer able to "see" things clearly due to this enhanced emotional involvement...

Probably both that and also that with hindsight, knowing what she had to go through with the marriage to Tyrion, Joff's murder, her being framed for Regicide, Dontos' death, Lysa's attempt on her life, having to endure LF's kisses, I think she think that he should have presented his offer in a better light so she would have taken it. It's almost as if she's blaming him for being incompetent and he could have saved her an immense amount of danger and trouble. He told her he'd keep her safe, yet he broke that promise and legged it, sort of.

It actually seems that what a lot of people think she ought to be traumatised by (his violent approach to her) she does hold against him, but not so much because of how it frightened her, but because his behaviour ultimately stopped her from going with him, which at least from where Sansa is now would have been far preferable to a forced marriage, a regicide, an murder attempt by aunt, crossbowing Dontos etc.

ETA: We might see her tell Randa or Mya perhaps, but my personal feeling is that this is one secret she'll keep to herself. It's part of the power and mystique of the whole thing.

In tend to think that one day she'll return the favour (or what she thinks is return the favour at least), just to settle the score. :lol:

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What you've described above is typical arranged marriage where both people are committed to making the marriage work. Sansa's "marriage" was a bold-faced sham that took place under duress, and she had no desire to marry Tyrion, much less get to know him better as a husband and a lover. I would consider any man making a claim to be the Knight of Flowers in bed (unless you're the actual Knight of Flowers) to be ridiculous, but Tyrion takes the cake because he knows he's just forced this girl into a marriage and is now adding insult to injury by invoking the kind of man he knows she desires in order to further his advances.

Winter's Knight has already expounded on the fact that Tyrion is a Lannister and why this is such an unbearable marriage for Sansa, but I think it needs to be said that the other huge reason is because of Tyrion's looks. Sansa is repulsed by him; there is no getting around it. Every time she has seen Tyrion it's the one thing she always notices first and that's why when she tries to even find the slightest bit of desire for him on the bedding night she fails. If a woman cannot bear to even have you touch her or imagine you kissing her then it's game over. And I don't see why Sansa should have to come to terms with Tyrion's looks if they disgust her to that extent. I know people in real life whom I would never ever want. It doesn't mean that someone else might not be able to find their beauty or be willing to get to know them, but I simply cannot.

You keep repeating that knight of flowers sentence as if it meant "you can close your eyes and dream about Loras and you wouldn't tell the difference because i'm a super steamy hot lover", while I think that it meant that his misshapen body is not made any different from other men's (and so Loras too) when it comes to bedding, as I already wrote in some posts before.

Then, I don't think we'll ever agree about anything about Sansa's and Tyrion's marriage, because you seem to advocate some kind of complete rebellion from Sansa, when my approach is more like "life hands you lemons, make lemonade".

So, in my opinion she should have tried to come to terms with his looks, because they are married and in Westeros isn't that easy to get a divorce, and she could have made the best of being married to a man who, yes, is a Lannister, but it's clear that is detaching more and more from his family, obviously despises the King as much as Sansa, and ultimately I think was her best chance to leave KL unharmed without becoming an outlaw and LF's prisoner.

To make things clear, I'm not a Sansa hater (quite the contrary) and I think that also Tyrion handled the whole marriage thing completely wrong.

But all this is of course extremely subjective, so it's probably a bit pointless to continue discussing when we are seeing the whole thing in such a different light.

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