From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Kittykatknits]

Maybe he just did an awesomesauce switcheroo? :lol: I have been confused about that too, since the logical way to get on a horse when someone else is already on it is to throw your leg over the hind part, not to try and climb over its head.

It is, isn't it? I tend to think she's holding the botched attempt at getting her out against him, as well as the promise that nobody would hurt her, yet they did. Although you'd have to wonder how she imagined that he'd somehow stop that? Singlehandedly murdering everyone of note in Kings Landing? Or maybe just Tyrion? No idea, but it seems that promise still lingers with her somehow.

I agree with your assessment. I think her feelings though speak to her level of trust and confidence in him. We as the reader can understand that it's not very realistic but it does show plainly that she would have felt safer with him and reinforces her thought back in Clash that she didn't think he'd let any harm come to her.

ETA: Somehow my comment about him getting on the horse got deleted. Grr...

[Kittykatknits]

It doesn't look like she was constantly in Tyrion's company either. They slept in the same bed and supped together, but that's it.

He was busy being Master of Coin, I think in all the chapters between their wedding and the PW there is one brief scene in which they are together.

LF seems to be much more present.

And if Tyrions says he won't force himself on Sansa, I believe he won't. Can't say the same about LF.

Actually, LF was gone for quite a bit of time but the text makes a point of showing many of their interactions together. He spends time in Gulltown and visiting with many of the Lords of the Vale. She is on her own for much of the time and is running the household in his absence.

Of course I'm not saying it's the easiest thing to accept.

But after a while what do you do? You can lock yourself in a room and cry all day, or you can kill yourself, or you can face reality and see what you can do in the situation you are in. I prefer the latter.

Of course, there's always that other option, trying to escape from that situation. Your are basically saying that when kidnapped, your best option is to make the best of it. I prefer Sansa's approach, staying alive and doing what is needed while working on your escape. I just can't imagine a situation where the best option in a forced marriage is to shrug your shoulders and say it's time to make lemonade.

[Natalie_S]

Of course, there's always that other option, trying to escape from that situation. Your are basically saying that when kidnapped, your best option is to make the best of it. I prefer Sansa's approach, staying alive and doing what is needed while working on your escape. I just can't imagine a situation where the best option in a forced marriage is to shrug your shoulders and say it's time to make lemonade.

Well if you know you're in a fantasy novel :D probably that's the best approach, because you know that something is bound to happen to unlock the situation otherwise the readers will get bored.

But if you're not in a novel and there's not a convenient plot device at handy to spirit you away....

[brashcandy]

It is, isn't it? I tend to think she's holding the botched attempt at getting her out against him, as well as the promise that nobody would hurt her, yet they did. Although you'd have to wonder how she imagined that he'd somehow stop that? Singlehandedly murdering everyone of note in Kings Landing? Or maybe just Tyrion? No idea, but it seems that promise still lingers with her somehow.

I think it's a little bit of simply wanting him there, even though practically there's not much he could have done. We see the same kind of odd thought when she's pondering Margarery's note and all of a sudden she's wishes he was with her, but to provide exactly what? A little more of his charming advice on how to meet with high born guests? :) So I've always taken this as a sign of the depth of her appreciation for him, that even in situations where he would be wholly unsuitable, she desires his presence. As for her thoughts in AFFC on the bloody cloak, compare it to the Sansa of AGOT who thought being given a red rose was the best possible thing in the world. Now that she's older, she wants the real signs of affection, not the symbolic tokens, and given that Sandor took a kiss and a song, she knows she can get these things from him (unlike Loras), but he's no where to be found, and that makes her a bit frustrated. :)

[Kittykatknits]

Well if you know you're in a fantasy novel :D probably that's the best approach, because you know that something is bound to happen to unlock the situation otherwise the readers will get bored.

But if you're not in a novel and there's not a convenient plot device at handy to spirit you away....

I live in an area with a pretty diverse immigrant population, I know more than one woman put in to a situation similar to Sansa's. It's possible. I know a couple of former child soliders too but that's a different story.

[Kittykatknits]

Maybe he just did an awesomesauce switcheroo? :lol: I have been confused about that too, since the logical way to get on a horse when someone else is already on it is to throw your leg over the hind part, not to try and climb over its head.

The board somehow ate my comment about this.

I've tried to picture this scene in my head and we may need someone with more knowledge of horses than I have to explain it. The only way I can understand making this work is if he somehow swings his legs over the horse's head which sounds rather silly looking to me. The only conclusion I can come to is that Martin either didn't think about it or he wanted to show Sansa with her arms around him.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've tried to picture this scene in my head and we may need someone with more knowledge of horses than I have to explain it. The only way I can understand making this work is if he somehow swings his legs over the horse's head which sounds rather silly looking to me. The only conclusion I can come to is that Martin either didn't think about it or he wanted to show Sansa with her arms around him.

I used to compete as an eventer which at least makes me familiar with getting off and on horses, the only way I can see this working is that Sansa at some point got off the horse. :lol:

My opinion is that it's probably a continuity error, since it IS possible to shift a person from being in front to being behind, but it's normally something people do as part of voltige, i.e. gymnastics on horseback, and not something you'd do while in a dress.

Either that, or he was on foot until they got out of the crowd, got her down and then got back up and dragged her up after him, as that would be the simplest way to get someone up behind you. The absolutely simplest way would be for him to get up behind her, since this only takes that the person in front leans forward to not present a hindrance.

EDIT: It could be possible to get on a horse by throwing your leg over its neck and head but only if the horse was really small, the person really, really tall, or just you know, extremely graceful. While Sandor is extremely tall, he would also be dressed in armour, with swords and stuff, and the horses were supposedly normal sized horses and not small ponies.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

....well you can't hold it against Sansa for not wanting to marry someone with a "development disability", either.......

[Alissa]

The board somehow ate my comment about this.

I've tried to picture this scene in my head and we may need someone with more knowledge of horses than I have to explain it. The only way I can understand making this work is if he somehow swings his legs over the horse's head which sounds rather silly looking to me. The only conclusion I can come to is that Martin either didn't think about it or he wanted to show Sansa with her arms around him.

Unless Sandor's account of the riot is more accurate than Sansa's. Sansa has already shown she's not always quite reliable as a narrator. And we also know this was a traumatic experience for her, so she may well have played it down in her memory

As to getting on and off a horse, I completely agree with Lyanna there :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Unless Sandor's account of the riot is more accurate than Sansa's. Sansa has already shown she's not always quite reliable as a narrator. And we also know this was a traumatic experience for her, so she may well have played it down in her memory

As to getting on and off a horse, I completely agree with Lyanna there :)

It's Tyrion who describes them coming back to the Red Keep though, and it's from his point of view we get that Sansa had her arms wrapped tightly around Sandor.

But yeah, the horse switch thing is a bit confusing. ;)

[Alissa]

Just checked: when she remembers the riot while talking to Sandor she stays on her horse and it all seems comparatively harmless, but when she dreams of it later that night, she gets dragged from the horse. Her dream is a lot more violent too and imo makes much more sense than the version she told herself earlier.

I'll have to go now, but maybe I'll come back to this later as I have some more thoughts on this scene.

[Kittykatknits]

I used to compete as an eventer which at least makes me familiar with getting off and on horses, the only way I can see this working is that Sansa at some point got off the horse. :lol:

My opinion is that it's probably a continuity error, since it IS possible to shift a person from being in front to being behind, but it's normally something people do as part of voltige, i.e. gymnastics on horseback, and not something you'd do while in a dress.

Either that, or he was on foot until they got out of the crowd, got her down and then got back up and dragged her up after him, as that would be the simplest way to get someone up behind you. The absolutely simplest way would be for him to get up behind her, since this only takes that the person in front leans forward to not present a hindrance.

EDIT: It could be possible to get on a horse by throwing your leg over its neck and head but only if the horse was really small, the person really, really tall, or just you know, extremely graceful. While Sandor is extremely tall, he would also be dressed in armour, with swords and stuff, and the horses were supposedly normal sized horses and not small ponies.

Thanks for explaining, my knowledge of horses is limited to the fact that they come in different colors. So, I know nothing.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most likely, even in Martinworld.

[Monica21]

It can be important without Sansa telling anyone though, since one of the main functions of it so far seems to be to move Sandor Clegane from only "protector" into "possible love interest", which probably means should she meet him again, this will be at the back of her mind and may influence her actions and decisions wrt him.

While I certainly don't disagree with this, GRRM's comments tend to make a little more fearful that the unkiss means something else. He points to it as "unreliable narrator" which could have less to with Sandor being a potential love interest and more to do with Sansa's chapters not being entirely correct. I'm not sure what this means, except that it worries me when the times comes for her to make an impact, because whatever happens will be very unpredictable.

....well you can't hold it against Sansa for not wanting to marry someone with a "development disability", either.......

Absolutely true. Basic genetics tells us that much. Not only did she not love Tyrion, fail to respect him, and despise the forced marriage, but as a woman who's job it is (in that time) to produce healthy children, she couldn't count on her husband being able to do his part toward that.

[Lady Lea]

While I certainly don't disagree with this, GRRM's comments tend to make a little more fearful that the unkiss means something else. He points to it as "unreliable narrator" which could have less to with Sandor being a potential love interest and more to do with Sansa's chapters not being entirely correct. I'm not sure what this means, except that it worries me when the times comes for her to make an impact, because whatever happens will be very unpredictable.

Yes, I wonder if that's what he means, and if it has to do with more than Sansa and Sandor. She seems to be doing ok so far, the only false memories are the name of Joff's old sword, the unkiss, and I think the Mycah incident, was it? But in the future, who knows, she could misremember her whole past. If LF manipulates her well enough, I think it could be a possibility.

[Lyanna Stark]

While I certainly don't disagree with this, GRRM's comments tend to make a little more fearful that the unkiss means something else. He points to it as "unreliable narrator" which could have less to with Sandor being a potential love interest and more to do with Sansa's chapters not being entirely correct. I'm not sure what this means, except that it worries me when the times comes for her to make an impact, because whatever happens will be very unpredictable.

She misremembers the name of Joffrey's sword as well. GRRM has stated that she misremembers both of those things, but there's no indication that this happens to anything else so I wouldn't be too worried that Sansa is somehow delusional (which has been indicated in some discussions in the past, not saying this is your opinion :) )

The effect is has practically is to change Sansa's perception of Sandor, so if it will eventually mean something, it should tie in to that somehow. Meaning it seems likely that she should encounter him again in the future, if we assume that this story arc needs a resolution. I know Lummel thinks that Sandor will forever stay on the QI and that his presence in the novel from here on will only be as a "person" in Sansa's consciousness, in so far as she will always carry him with her and compare other men to him, sort of. I am not sure I am sold on this, since I think that doesn't really explain the UnKiss's importance if it will eventually "mean something".

[Valkyrja]

Yes, I wonder if that's what he means, and if it has to do with more than Sansa and Sandor. She seems to be doing ok so far, the only false memories are the name of Joff's old sword, the unkiss, and I think the Mycah incident, was it? But in the future, who knows, she could misremember her whole past. If LF manipulates her well enough, I think it could be a possibility.

That is indeed quite scary to think about. I truly hope that is not what happens. :(

That said, I always wondered if maybe GRRM couched his statement about the meaning of the unKiss-as-mismemory in such terms because he is simply trying to be coy and not outright state that he is trying to show Sansa having feelings towards Sandor?

No doubt some would say that is wishful thinking on my part. But in fact, I as much as I like the Sandor side to Sana's story, I am far more immediately worried about the possibility that LF will brainwash her to the point that she really *wont* be able to tell the difference between truth and lies, reality and fiction any longer. To me, though, this would seem like a backwards step in her storyline, which has been all about 'revealing what is underneath' . So....hmm...

ETA: Lyanna posted while I was still writing the above, glad to see that you also think Sansa is not meant to be delusional in such an extreme way.

[Monica21]

Yes, I wonder if that's what he means, and if it has to do with more than Sansa and Sandor. She seems to be doing ok so far, the only false memories are the name of Joff's old sword, the unkiss, and I think the Mycah incident, was it? But in the future, who knows, she could misremember her whole past. If LF manipulates her well enough, I think it could be a possibility.

Sansa's very isolated right now, and everything that we think we know is happening is happening is from her POV chapters. There's no one to "correct" the narrative, so we don't know what's false and what isn't. I'm not going to say that she's constructed an elaborate fake world, but she could be "remembering" something relatively minor incorrectly and that turns out to have bigger implications than we think. And I'm talking about something other than the unkiss right now, very likely whatever is happening to her in the Vale.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I think her story arc will converge with Jaime, Brienne and Sandor at some point as all of them are in the same general area. Most likely on the QI as so much detail was put into setting up that location and the people in it. It may be due to it being a "safe harbor". Possibly unCat will show up as well...

[Lady Lea]

I agree, Valkyrja, it could be a step backwards in her story, but I still see the distinct possibility of this having more implications than just her feelings for Sandor. I believe the narrative in her current POVs, but in the future she could reimagine her past... (if this makes sense)

[brashcandy]

So far, the unkiss seems to tie Sansa to her past though, a past that she is trying to put out her mind and focus on her performance as Alayne. If the unkiss is to be significant, then I would expect to see Martin showing it as somehow being a factor in helping Sansa to break away from LF's control and gain some independence. Thinking about the unkiss itself: it's a mismemory, but importantly, a memory of being kissed by a man who is quite inappropriate as a suitor for a highborn girl. Therefore, the unkiss in itself holds meaning to do with erotic agency, identity, and autonomy (Sansa does create it all on her own afterall), all of which are very important themes in Sansa's arc and should become even more critical as her story continues.