Jump to content

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI


brashcandy

Recommended Posts

Is it just me or does Sansa not comment much on LF claiming to have taken both Cat's and Lysa's maidenheads? (Or well, LF informs her of the former and Lysa the latter).

There's this passage when LF tells her he'll marry Lysa:

"Wed?" Sansa was stunned. "You and my aunt?"

"The Lord of Harrenhal and the Lady of the Eyrie."

You said it was my mother you loved. But of course Lady Catelyn was dead, so even if she had loved Petyr secretly and given him her maidenhood, it made no matter now.

I don't know if she's quite convinced wrt Cat, but Sansa doesn't seem to think of it as an abomination, only that if it HAD happened it would be because Cat loved him. Sansa doesn't even think about Ned in this instance. BUT, when Lysa goes on about Cat being a huge tease, Sansa denies it:

"(...)Catelyn most of all. She liked to kiss my Petyr too, oh yes she did."

Sansa retreated another step. "My mother?"

"Yes, your mother, your precious mother, my own sweet sister Catelyn. Don’t you think to play the innocent with me, you vile little liar. All those years in Riverrun, she played with Petyr as if he were her little toy. She teased him with smiles and soft words and wanton looks, and made his nights a torment."

"No." My mother is dead, she wanted to shriek. She was your own sister, and she’s dead. "She didn’t. She wouldn’t."

When Lysa tells her the story of how she gave her maindenhood to LF she's more frightened of her aunt than really thinking about the stuff she's saying. She compares Lysa to Cersei in that moment which is a very apt comparison as Lyanna pointed out, since Cersei also complained to Sansa about her arranged marriage and shocked her considerably.

"Be quiet, I haven’t given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep. Even so, I stayed with him until the sky began to lighten. Your mother did not deserve him. She would not even give him her favor to wear when he fought Brandon Stark. I would have given him my favor. I gave him everything. He is mine now. Not Catelyn’s and not yours."

All of Sansa’s resolve had withered in the face of her aunt’s onslaught. Lysa Arryn was frightening her as much as Queen Cersei ever had. "He’s yours, my lady," she said, trying to sound meek and contrite. "May I have your leave to go?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interestingly, Cersei also became a really bitter and hateful woman during her years with Robert, same as Lysa here (granted, Cersei is also selfish, power hungry and greedy, but still).

Both Cersei and Lysa were in different ways trapped by political circumstance which prevented them from having any influence in whom they ended up marrying. Lysa's case is the more tragic here too, I think.

Yes, becoming a bitter woman suffering under one's duty (even if one does manage to have a bit of fun on the side) isn't an appealing fate.

Is it just me or does Sansa not comment much on LF claiming to have taken both Cat's and Lysa's maidenheads? (Or well, LF informs her of the former and Lysa the latter).

I think Sansa has a lot of thoughts which we are not privy to and this may have been one of them. It's one of the reasons why I think she'll surprise readers in the future. Things which we don't see her considering must still be making an impact and influencing her feelings and decisions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

& it's a clever point that sansa got to see the results of obsessive love. she'll know soon enough that LF is lysa all over again only with Cat in mind- & now her. Another reason why Sandor re-appearing in her life would be good: Sandor doens't seem the obsessive type. meaning that back in Blackwater, he ultimately respected sansa's choice of not going with him, and he didn't tried to force her against her will to escape. he cares more about her happiness than satisfying himself and in the future i can see him accepting sansa choosing another (maybe for political reasons or for love) and those are things LF won't do i think, at least not now that he's been with her for quite a bit. He may "share" her with harry, but in the end he can kill harry and have sansa himself, however reluctant she is about that.

Good point. What's funny is that Sandor comes off looking like a bit of a cad in Sansa's memories in AFFC, whilst unknown to her he's completely broken hearted about the entire thing. :) So LF continues with his overbearing attentions, whilst Sansa fantasizes over the one that got away. Has LF killed Lysa only to become her?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lady Lea,

That's a good point, I had forgotten into how much detail Lysa goes before LF shows up. I wonder if Sansa will add 2+2 and realise at some point that it was Lysa LF shagged, not Cat and that Cat remained faithful to Ned the entire time? She does have conflicting stories now, one from Lysa and one from LF, but it's also interesting that she defends her mother even in the face of her shagging LF before her marriage to Ned.

Good point. What's funny is that Sandor comes off looking like a bit of a cad in Sansa's memories in AFFC, whilst unknown to her he's completely broken hearted about the entire thing. :) So LF continues with his overbearing attentions, whilst Sansa fantasizes over the one that got away. Has LF killed Lysa only to become her?

Yes, their future reunion will probably be fraught with conflict and misunderstandings since Sansa does seem to hold him leaving her against him together with his botched attempt at taking her with him, while he seems totally broken up about it. We also have the sack of Saltpans which, if Sansa doesn't learn the truth from the EB or Brienne could be potentially disastrous disinformation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add on Lysa`s influence on Sansa

Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. “My sweet silly jealous wife,” he said, chuckling. “I’ve only loved one woman, I promise you.”

Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. “Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?”

“Only Cat.” He gave her a short, sharp shove.

Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.

Don`t you think that here Sansa have learnt never to trust, or love or even care for anyone 100% percent. The last lesson Lysa gave to Sansa is the most important one. From there, Sansa started playing the Game...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

hopefully she'll think like jaime, that sandor isn't capable of that... maybe she'll wonder why would sandor of all people burn down a whole town arround him, since she knows about his face.

gods, i can't wait for their reunion! she'll demand an explanation for leaving her and he'll be thinking she doesn't want anythign to do with him at first probably...

about LF & Lysa, yes i think that cat & sansa are his weak points, and the man just has to err at some point- aside from the info he's been telling sansa and about what the tyrells did to joff, there's also a lot of things that he isn't telling her which others can, like LF betraying ned in the throne room, and so Sansa hopefully can get as far away as she can from him... though it would be ironic and poetic to have her throw him out of the moondoor or using the hairnet, i'm not so sure yet of what to think of sansa being the actual murderer...

edit: out of llikes for today :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since we're near 400 posts I'll save Cat for the next thread since I think it's a more complex subject than the other women present, since we actually don't get any interaction between Cat and Sansa "on screen".

Yes, becoming a bitter woman suffering under one's duty (even if one does manage to have a bit of fun on the side) isn't an appealing fate.

I think this is an eye opener for Sansa due to the influence from Cat and Ned (which I have some thoughts on for later!). Lysa and Cersei really don't pull any punches when they explain how much their marriages sucked and it's clear to see the negative influence it has had on them. Duty to them was death of the self, almost.

I think Sansa has a lot of thoughts which we are not privy to and this may have been one of them. It's one of the reasons why I think she'll surprise readers in the future. Things which we don't see her considering must still be making an impact and influencing her feelings and decisions.

I agree. It makes it all the more interesting to project what she is going to make of things. It's also interesting to see how well she reasons in AFFC about almost every single bit of human interaction. Hopefully she will be able to apply that knowledge to things that happened to her in the past as well. I am just *dying* to read about the day she figures out just how awful the Tyrells were to her. She already knows most of it, but I don't think she has processed the full impact of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since we're near 400 posts I'll save Cat for the next thread since I think it's a more complex subject than the other women present, since we actually don't get any interaction between Cat and Sansa "on screen".

Ok great. In fact, as a general note to the other contributors: when this thread reaches 400 or just a little over, I'll request it closed and then start the new one, so save your analyses for that one, and we could close out this thread with discussions on what's been presented so far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back a small step to Mladen's post about the Tyrells, especially the QoT and Margaery:

For the first time, when Sansa mentioned Margaery Tyrell it is in the context of compassion to her. Sansa`s feeling sorry for the girl she even hadn`t met, knowing what truly monster Joffrey is. Someone would think that after everything she survived, there`s no sympathy or compassion in Sansa. This has proven otherwise. Sansa is still that sweet, innocent child, who means no harm to anyone, well except of Lannisters, of course…

I agree that Sansa's compassion is one of her great strengths and one of the best aspects of her character, which her detractors often seem to miss when they assume she is a "brat". But a "brat" would not feel for Margaery the way Sansa does here. I'm also not convinced that she is still a sweet, innocent child completely though. She has learnt to mistrust and does not divulge her information freely to the Tyrells, but they do a nice number on her and as you say, the corner her. Check mate.

God save us all, if it wasn`t so sad, it would be so funny. I sometimes believe that she had learned nothing all that time in KL. She still has crush on Loras…

I love this passage since Sansa is all aflutter and she manages to just insert her foot in her mouth so much without knowing it. It's sad, but hilarious. :)

Her description on Loras while in Kings Landing is interesting to keep in mind though, since she thinks she'd like to run her hands down his chest, but also thinks he looks so lovely and innocent in white (yes, innocent), so clearly this is meant to be a shallow teenage crush. It also contrasts a lot to how she thinks of Sandor later with his "cruel lips" and with a background that's far more dramatic. Loras' rose and his innocence seem rather proper compared to the cruel kisses with a background of green fire and remnants of bloody cloaks, I think.

Was this quite honest? Did QOT actually spoke the truth? Were they really sorry? Maybe not, but who cares…You have a frightened, tortured girl who lost everything and you are polite and kind to her. This was well done. They sympathized with her and made her more comfortable so they could find out what they really want. I actually think that Sansa learnt here how powerful kind words are (she used those many times in Vale).

I am of the opinion that the QoT may feel a bit sorry for Sansa, but not sorry enough obviously since she was fine in using her as a pawn to kill Joffrey and implicate her in regicide. That's a really, really serious thing to do. Whatever the QoT and Margaery felt, they were still ok with throwing Sansa under the bus here, so Dontos' words about Tyrells being Lannisters with roses seem 100% true. Sod em all!

Here Sansa found out what smart woman is. I truly believe that QOT, just by having that speech about Tyrells showed Sansa how women can be smart and clever and not use their beauty in those purposes. Women take what they want on the oldest way, and QOT showed her that women can be smart, not just by widening their legs at the right time, than actually can speak and say what they want and have to…

This is an interesting point. I wonder how much information Sansa will be able to glean from her interaction with Olenna and Margaery. If anything, she should realise that the QoT is big time trouble if you are on the opposite side with regards to courtly intrigue, but I think the QoT and Margaery did overplay their hand a bit with Sansa. She now knows how good they are and what they did, while they still consider Sansa pretty stupid. It's clear from what the QoT says that she believes Sansa to be as dumb as Victarion.

However, the QoT and Margaery are two examples of women going pretty far to get a more favourable match for themselves. Of course, we don't know if the QoT poisoned her Targaryen prince to get rid of him and marry Luthor Tyrell instead, but she certainly did *something* to make it happen. And now Sansa has seen poison in action (Joffrey) and she's heard of Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn so she'll know that it is a possible weapon in her arsenal. But what are the moral costs of using it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, the QoT and Margaery are two examples of women going pretty far to get a more favourable match for themselves. Of course, we don't know if the QoT poisoned her Targaryen prince to get rid of him and marry Luthor Tyrell instead, but she certainly did *something* to make it happen. And now Sansa has seen poison in action (Joffrey) and she's heard of Lysa poisoning Jon Arryn so she'll know that it is a possible weapon in her arsenal. But what are the moral costs of using it?

It's another similarity between Sansa's and Arya's arc: both sisters are learning about poisons and how deadly they can be, and although Arya is being given a more intensive training, Sansa too has had a part to play in delivering death via this method. As for the moral implications of using it, I think Sansa would be able to soothe her conscience if she was to get rid of someone like LF. She was a bit conflicted at first over implicating Marillion in Lysa's murder, but she ultimately surmises that he did not have any qualms over Lysa's attempt to murder her. The Alayne persona is also contributing to a much more practical, slightly callous outlook on her part.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It occured to me, can we also talk about family words: WINTER IS COMING and FAMILY, DUTY, HONOR, and their impact on Sansa, not just another women`s influence, than rather how her family philosophy shaped her. Sorry about double post...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lady Lea,

That's a good point, I had forgotten into how much detail Lysa goes before LF shows up. I wonder if Sansa will add 2+2 and realise at some point that it was Lysa LF shagged, not Cat and that Cat remained faithful to Ned the entire time? She does have conflicting stories now, one from Lysa and one from LF, but it's also interesting that she defends her mother even in the face of her shagging LF before her marriage to Ned.

On this point: we only have Littlefinger's boast that he did it (which itself might be either pure fakery or a drunken mistaken recollection), and then Lysa's paranoia about losing him to Cat. I am not convinced he and Cat actually did the deed, only that he was infatuated with Cat and Lysa with him. Cat may have kissed him, as a game, but I don't see anything that jumps out and confirms they actually had sex.

I think Sansa has a lot of thoughts which we are not privy to and this may have been one of them. It's one of the reasons why I think she'll surprise readers in the future. Things which we don't see her considering must still be making an impact and influencing her feelings and decisions.

I think Sansa has not even fully processed what she has heard / knows from either Littlefinger or her aunt Lysa. Sansa is a bit caught up in surviving events, and obviously when Lysa told her some VERY important personal/political secrets, Sansa was pre-occupied with getting out of that room without using the Moon Door.

But once Sansa has time to think more deeply about all that, to reason it out, see what it caused and where it leads, that information is like a bomb waiting to go off. Littlefinger miscalculated or at least was unfortunate that Lysa told Sansa things she was never meant to hear (like the real story of Jon Arryn's untinely death, and as such, the indirect cause of her father's death and the war). Littlefinger is not one to miss details like that, not when there would be such hell to pay for him if that information becomes more widely known.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok ok so here’s Lysa. I hope it turned out ok!

Lysa is the daughter of Hoster Tully, widow of Jon Arryn, as highborn a lady as they get, and Sansa sees her marry… Littlefinger, lord of a tiny piece of rock and some sheep. For love. She’s very open about the fact that she loves this lowborn man and is not ashamed of it at all. She would have married him even when he didn’t have any important titles.

Could this become a parallel later for Sansa and Sandor? Sansa is as highborn as you get and Sandor has nothing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could this become a parallel later for Sansa and Sandor? Sansa is as highborn as you get and Sandor has nothing.

I hope so! ;) TBH even the Clegane keep sounds much nicer than Petyr's.

But it was good for Sansa to see that some highborn ladies do sometimes find love among the "lower class" and how duty was poison to both Lysa and Cat. I really think she'll take this into consideration in the future.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that Sansa's compassion is one of her great strengths and one of the best aspects of her character, which her detractors often seem to miss when they assume she is a "brat". But a "brat" would not feel for Margaery the way Sansa does here. I'm also not convinced that she is still a sweet, innocent child completely though. She has learnt to mistrust and does not divulge her information freely to the Tyrells, but they do a nice number on her and as you say, the corner her. Check mate.

About Sansa`s innocence and sweetness, I meant at the end of COK, I meant she has no ill will towards Margaery, she has become different person since her father

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...