From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VI

[Mladen]

I agree that Sansa's compassion is one of her great strengths and one of the best aspects of her character, which her detractors often seem to miss when they assume she is a "brat". But a "brat" would not feel for Margaery the way Sansa does here. I'm also not convinced that she is still a sweet, innocent child completely though. She has learnt to mistrust and does not divulge her information freely to the Tyrells, but they do a nice number on her and as you say, the corner her. Check mate.

About Sansa`s innocence and sweetness, I meant at the end of COK, I meant she has no ill will towards Margaery, she has become different person since her father

[Mladen]

Sorry again, don`t know what`s happenning

[Jin Uzuki]

Sansa is a major screw-up. There's no sure thing, when it comes to Sansa. She'll find a way to blunder. She's one of those gals who could mess up a guy's wet dream. I get angry every time I read her "mooning" about Joffrey and all the wonderful future they will have together.

She's still normal though, for a very selfish, sheltered, and spoiled teenager. Actually, if you compare her to Arya (whom most people prefer over Sansa) she is actually the normal one. They both suffered a lot of horrible experiences but they have responded differently. I think Sansa's way of coping is more normal than Arya's. Arya's coping style and all of that lust for blood revenge is insane. Sansa is a lot closer to normal than Arya. Sansa, at least did not suffer a permanent emotional breakdown.

[Winter's Knight]

Sansa is a major screw-up. There's no sure thing, when it comes to Sansa. She'll find a way to blunder. She's one of those gals who could mess up a guy's wet dream. I get angry every time I read her "mooning" about Joffrey and all the wonderful future they will have together.

:stillsick:

I...what?

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Sansa is a major screw-up. There's no sure thing, when it comes to Sansa. She'll find a way to blunder. She's one of those gals who could mess up a guy's wet dream. I get angry every time I read her "mooning" about Joffrey and all the wonderful future they will have together.

She's still normal though, for a very selfish, sheltered, and spoiled teenager. Actually, if you compare her to Arya (whom most people prefer over Sansa) she is actually the normal one. They both suffered a lot of horrible experiences but they have responded differently. I think Sansa's way of coping is more normal than Arya's. Arya's coping style and all of that lust for blood revenge is insane. Sansa is a lot closer to normal than Arya. Sansa, at least did not suffer a permanent emotional breakdown.

EWH! :stillsick: :ack:

Plus did you even read beyond AGOT?

[Valkyrja]

EWH! :stillsick: :ack:

Plus did you even read beyond AGOT?

Yet more confirmation that many people *don't* read or pay any attention whatsoever to Sansa's chapters post-AGoT.......

At least we have this thread, for those who do wish to seriously look at and analyze her chapters. :)

*But seriously, is this 'make icky statements about Sansa' night? Because someone just posted on another thread that they thought Sansa ought to be tortured by Ramsay Bolton. I was utterly flabbergasted to say the least....

[Queen Cersei I]

Sansa is a major screw-up. There's no sure thing, when it comes to Sansa. She'll find a way to blunder. She's one of those gals who could mess up a guy's wet dream. I get angry every time I read her "mooning" about Joffrey and all the wonderful future they will have together.

Yes, I agree. Sansa is a moron and a bitch for liking cute guys her own age. Plus, this preference for guys her own age sure screws up grown ass men who want to fantasize/ have nocturnal emissions over her!

Re: the screwing up-- also inexcusable. With a father who is such a paragon of intelligence, political wisdom, and discretion, how dare she make a mistake, ever? Wet dream killing bitch.

She's still normal though, for a very selfish, sheltered, and spoiled teenager. Actually, if you compare her to Arya (whom most people prefer over Sansa) she is actually the normal one. They both suffered a lot of horrible experiences but they have responded differently. I think Sansa's way of coping is more normal than Arya's. Arya's coping style and all of that lust for blood revenge is insane. Sansa is a lot closer to normal than Arya. Sansa, at least did not suffer a permanent emotional breakdown.

Yes, I agree. While a moron and a bitch, Sansa is at least better than her freakishly abnormal sister. Who responds to abuse, victimization, extreme violence, and intense brainwashing with some violence of her own and misguided efforts to make her feel safe and in control of her life. Clearly, Arya is the worst thing it's possible for a female to be-- ABNORMAL.

Clearly, reacting to the slaughter of one's family, the loss of nearly all ones friends, large scale abandomnent, being surrounded by the horrors of war, and being brain washed by a bunch of cult weirdos by wishing revenge upon her enemies... makes Arya abnormal? Totally.

"At least Sansa did not suffer a mental breakdown." True, true. I really enjoy how, at the moment, Sansa is in a beautiful state of total psychological health where she's actually taken on a disparate identity, is clearly suffering symptoms of PTSD, and is learning to disembody herself mentally whilst suffering the caresses of a pervert.

:stillsick:

I...what?

Silly Winter's Knight! Don't you know that Sansa's small faults, personal idiosyncrisies, and, most revolting of all, attraction to handsome young men are major mood killers for those adult men who want to have wet dreams about her? How could you fail to understand that.

In short, Sansa and Arya are stupid and useless (the former) and an enraged, psychotic servant of sociopathic bloodlust (the latter.) And worst of all, they're both total cockblockers.

[1234567]

Getting away from dreams.....seriously ugh!

A couple of the quotes about Lysa got me thinking about why Sansa may actively kill off LF and why she would use poison. Lysa mentions a woman using poison to defend her child. Lysa also tells Sansa the ingredients of Moon Tea and how it was given to her in order to kill her unborn child. We also have Sansa knowing and seemingly not disapproving of her Mother having slept with LF and an interesting pattern where she has changed her view on bastards quite a bit.

Could it be possible that Sansa does sleep with someone of her choice, gets pregnant and LF tries to have said child killed with Moon Tea? Sansa may recognize the ingredients thanks to Lysa, and then try to protect her own unborn child through poisoning LF.

Or indeed she could do it to protect SR. She did say she was his mother now.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Getting away from dreams.....seriously ugh!

A couple of the quotes about Lysa got me thinking about why Sansa may actively kill off LF and why she would use poison. Lysa mentions a woman using poison to defend her child. Lysa also tells Sansa the ingredients of Moon Tea and how it was given to her in order to kill her unborn child. We also have Sansa knowing and seemingly not disapproving of her Mother having slept with LF and an interesting pattern where she has changed her view on bastards quite a bit.

Could it be possible that Sansa does sleep with someone of her choice, gets pregnant and LF tries to have said child killed with Moon Tea? Sansa may recognize the ingredients thanks to Lysa, and then try to protect her own unborn child through poisoning LF.

Or indeed she could do it to protect SR. She did say she was his mother now.

I think the later theory is more suitable. Because with whom does Sansa have child with? Unless "gravedigger" comes to the Vale :P

Plus I am all for Sansa poisoning LF. Sansa had enough with being caged into a gold cage. What would be more fitting for Sansa then to break herself free from it and save herself. That would be poetic. The Damsel saving herself from distress. :drunk:

[Valkyrja]

I think the later theory is more suitable. Because with whom does Sansa have child with? Unless "gravedigger" comes to the Vale :P

Plus I am all for Sansa poisoning LF. Sansa had enough with being caged into a gold cage. What would be more fitting for Sansa then to break herself free from it and save herself. That would be poetic. The Damsel saving herself from distress. :drunk:

Count me as another who hopes that Sansa will find a way to help/save Sweetrobin. It will be very tragic to me if she helps LF do away with her own cousin.....one of my greatest hopes for her immediate future is that she tries to stop him from being sweet-sleeped to death.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Count me as another who hopes that Sansa will find a way to help/save Sweetrobin. It will be very tragic to me if she helps LF do away with her own cousin.....one of my greatest hopes for her immediate future is that she tries to stop him from being sweet-sleeped to death.

I do think she will save Sweet Robin. What stood out, at least to me, is that in the last chapter Sansa's thoughts about Little Finger slowly killing SweetRobin is very limited. I think GRRM, the major troll :P, did it deliberately to give Sansa arc more sense of cliffhanger. To me it absolutely worked. It is Sansa's arc I am most anticipating to in TWOW. Like Rapsie pointed out those things do foreshadow Little Fingers fate. Gosh I just made myself more eager to Sansa's POV chapters in TWOW. :lol:

[brashcandy]

Just a reminder: In the next few hours this thread will be closed (if the mods don't do it before I make my request) and a new one started. If you have your presentation ready on one of the female characters please wait for the new thread to be open to post it. In the meanwhile, discussion is still open for the contributions done by A... on Randa Royce, Lady Lea on Lysa Tully, and Mladen on Olenna, Margaery and Ellaria Sand.

There are still four female characters that are available for posters who might want to contribute an analysis: Septa Mordane, Jeyne Poole, Shae and Kella.

If there are no takers I'll be doing those myself :)

Thanks again guys!

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I think Sansa has not even fully processed what she has heard / knows from either Littlefinger or her aunt Lysa. Sansa is a bit caught up in surviving events, and obviously when Lysa told her some VERY important personal/political secrets, Sansa was pre-occupied with getting out of that room without using the Moon Door.

But once Sansa has time to think more deeply about all that, to reason it out, see what it caused and where it leads, that information is like a bomb waiting to go off. Littlefinger miscalculated or at least was unfortunate that Lysa told Sansa things she was never meant to hear (like the real story of Jon Arryn's untinely death, and as such, the indirect cause of her father's death and the war). Littlefinger is not one to miss details like that, not when there would be such hell to pay for him if that information becomes more widely known.

I've lurked and read this thread, and looked at previous threads in this topic, and have decided to jump in. Sansa is one of my favorite characters in ASOIAF. She, along with Jaime Lannister, gets some of the best character development I've seen. Her POV is one of the ones I"m most looking forward to in TWOW.

I have a lot of thoughts on Sansa, especially as regarding Sansa as mother. I see her being linked with the concept of Mother as much as Catelyn and Dany. I hope she gets the sons named for her father and brothers that she wants so much :) - even if she doesn't develop into a Mother of the people the way I surmise she might. (And yes, the un-kiss, the song and bloody cloak that she kept buried under her clothes in her trunk... :) )

Right now I want to reply to Pod the Impaler's noting that Sansa now knows the real story behind Jon Arryn's death (and Littlefinger's role in precipitating the shitstorm that is tearing Westeros apart and has destroyed her own family. Ticking time bomb is right. Right now it doesn't seem to have sunk in very far for Sansa, who was trying not to get thrown out the Moon Door. But I am sure that is going to be sinking in now that she has some room to relax.

And Littlefinger has to know that she knows (unless he was also so caught up in the moment that he had a major brain blank). That could lead to a very dangerous situation with Sansa down the road if Littlefinger thinks she knows too much and tries to imprison her, or worse (Jeyne Poole anyone?) to save his own skin.

It could be that Sansa kills him (with her hairnet? siccing the Hound after him? siccing her little sister after him? If Sansa manages to find and reconcile with Arya, and tells Arya what she knows, Littlefinger is dead meat on rye). It could be out of self-preservation and/or to save the life of her child, or it could be for the good of the realm, or just pure rage at finding out who really was the one responsible for all the suffering.

Sansa's image of a "stupid little girl" (to quote Cersei) who cries and wrings her hands and thinks life is a song reminds me of how people see Wyman Manderly, as the cowardly fat stupid guy, and it became apparent that Wyman himself encourages this belief to get people to underestimate him. I think that Sansa will remain far too kindhearted to ever serve Cersei a Myrcella Pie (ew) but I surmise that at the end of the story it will be she who is the Stark to be reckoned with.

[Valkyrja]

I've lurked and read this thread, and looked at previous threads in this topic, and have decided to jump in. Sansa is one of my favorite characters in ASOIAF. She, along with Jaime Lannister, gets some of the best character development I've seen. Her POV is one of the ones I"m most looking forward to in TWOW.

I have a lot of thoughts on Sansa, especially as regarding Sansa as mother. I see her being linked with the concept of Mother as much as Catelyn and Dany. I hope she gets the sons named for her father and brothers that she wants so much :) - even if she doesn't develop into a Mother of the people the way I surmise she might. (And yes, the un-kiss, the song and bloody cloak that she kept buried under her clothes in her trunk... :) )

Right now I want to reply to Pod the Impaler's noting that Sansa now knows the real story behind Jon Arryn's death (and Littlefinger's role in precipitating the shitstorm that is tearing Westeros apart and has destroyed her own family. Ticking time bomb is right. Right now it doesn't seem to have sunk in very far for Sansa, who was trying not to get thrown out the Moon Door. But I am sure that is going to be sinking in now that she has some room to relax.

And Littlefinger has to know that she knows (unless he was also so caught up in the moment that he had a major brain blank). That could lead to a very dangerous situation with Sansa down the road if Littlefinger thinks she knows too much and tries to imprison her, or worse (Jeyne Poole anyone?) to save his own skin.

It could be that Sansa kills him (with her hairnet? siccing the Hound after him? siccing her little sister after him? If Sansa manages to find and reconcile with Arya, and tells Arya what she knows, Littlefinger is dead meat on rye). It could be out of self-preservation and/or to save the life of her child, or it could be for the good of the realm, or just pure rage at finding out who really was the one responsible for all the suffering.

Sansa's image of a "stupid little girl" (to quote Cersei) who cries and wrings her hands and thinks life is a song reminds me of how people see Wyman Manderly, as the cowardly fat stupid guy, and it became apparent that Wyman himself encourages this belief to get people to underestimate him. I think that Sansa will remain far too kindhearted to ever serve Cersei a Myrcella Pie (ew) but I surmise that at the end of the story it will be she who is the Stark to be reckoned with.

Just wanted to say welcome to the forums and to this thread, KittensRuleBeetsDrool! What a great username, by the way! :D

Also, thank you for your above comments. I too think Sansa is one of the more greatly underestimated characters in ASoIaF, by both other characters in the story and readers alike. The comparision to Manderly is apt, though hopefully Sansa will be a force to be reckoned with for much longer than Manderly (whom I suspect is on a suicide mission at the moment). I think Sansa is a survivor, and I feel strongly she will make it through the Winter. :)

[Queen Cersei I]

Interestingly, Myranda seems to talk of Geopolitics and sex, so it seems likely that she'll introduce Sansa to both these but with a different slant than Littlefinger. It also means that Sansa could potentially get information from other sources than Littlefinger about what is going on in the world, since he up until the Gates of the Moon seem to have filtered what Sansa gets to hear.

However, if Myranda continues in any way like she started, she's definitely going to be "that" female friend that makes you neck a whole bottle of wine and then encourages you to go snog some bloke while too inebriated to stand. And then makes you tell her all the details afterwards. :lol:

On first glance Myranda certainly seems like good girlfriend material, however, I am personally somewhat weary of her. Many have speculated that Myranda will become Sansa’s new friend/ confidant, with Myranda playing the role of the older pal who initiates her younger friend into the world of gossip, adult ways, and frank sexual talk. I can certainly see this happening. However, there are several factors that give me pause; and lead me to question whether Rhanda is in fact as natural, friendly, and spontaneous as she comes off to Sansa in this scene.

Much in the style of Margary Tyrell, I think it’s very possible that Myranda may have an agenda of her own. While we’re certainly not talking the dangerous politics and backstabbing of kings landing here, I’d speculate that Myranda isn’t just making an effort to befriend Sansa out of the goodness of her heart or because she is solely charmed by Sansa. (Though both of these might be contributing factors as well.) Simply put, it seems to me Myranda Royce may have her cap set for Littlefinger.

This first came across for me at several different points, such as when Rhanda (seemingly casually and offhandedly) asks Sansa if her father is still mourning Lady Lysa; then comments that, though he apparently loved her, it seems that it’s time for him to move on and find a new wife. (But who would that be, Myranda?) Later, she makes a sexually themed joke about LF, commenting “how little is it?” Making Sansa blush, then commenting, “Never mind. I’m sure it’s big enough.”

Many probably see these comments as merely polite interest in Sansa’s family and a silly, saucy comment that showcases how direct and jolly Rhanda is about sexual matters. That may well be the case, however, something about the offhanded but significant way with which Rhanda questions Sansa about LF’s mourning stages and then comments it’s time for him to move on and find another lady strikes me as… opportune somehow, along with a few other comments of Rhanda’s.

So while Rhanda may simply be platonically attracted to Sansa as a sweet, pretty, fun girl around her own age, it also seems to me she might be (partially, at least) warming up to Sansa to get her main prize—LF. After all, as Myranda herself has noted, with her husband dead, viable husbands are something she is looking for. Usually, a man with LF’s birth would be no prize, yet now he is Lord of the Vale. Furthermore, Harry the Heir has recently turned Rhanda’s offer down, so we know that a. Rhanda is searching for a husband and; b. she seems rather ambitious, and aiming to perhaps inherit the entire vale if she can. (After all, it can’t be lost upon a bright girl like her that Sweet Robin is weak and sickly, without even bothering to get into his myriad of mental problems.) She notes rather indignantly to Sansa that Harry the Heir has rejected her; perhaps she’s looking towards other prizes now.

If this were indeed a goal Rhanda’s considered, then the strategic value of striking up a friendship with LF’s illegitimate daughter would definitely seem like a bright move. She would have a way to easily get closer to LF and show herself to him without looking obtrusive; her new friend might mention her positively to her daddy; knowing LF’s daughter would give her a handy spy to find out what LF is doing/ where he is in terms of marriage plans (at one point Rhanda tries to grill Sansa for info, but Sansa thinks something like, “You want information, but you won’t get any out of me.) Befriending Sansa may be Rhanda’s natural inclination. (And for the record, I really hope it is, and that’s all it is.) However, if Rhanda wanted to make her way into LF’s consciousness and catch his eye, making friends with Sansa is a great strategic move.

Just to note—regardless of whether Rhanda is using Sansa, or simply is aware that being friends with her could help give her access to a wealthy and desirable man, I don’t really think Rhanda’s evil. However, her several (and significant) mentions of LF and his state of affairs; the strength and suddenness of her overtures of friendship to Sansa (they’ve just met, and already Rhanda is saying her and Sansa should hand out/ share a bed); the way she grills Sansa for information; and the state of her personal affairs (and what she shares about them to Sansa) all make me rather suspect her of having some ulterior motives in befriending Sansa. This is not wrong, but it makes me weary and somewhat apprehensive for Sansa’s sake. Surely she’s already been used enough.

Just a reminder: In the next few hours this thread will be closed (if the mods don't do it before I make my request) and a new one started. If you have your presentation ready on one of the female characters please wait for the new thread to be open to post it. In the meanwhile, discussion is still open for the contributions done by A... on Randa Royce, Lady Lea on Lysa Tully, and Mladen on Olenna, Margaery and Ellaria Sand.

There are still four female characters that are available for posters who might want to contribute an analysis: Septa Mordane, Jeyne Poole, Shae and Kella.

If there are no takers I'll be doing those myself :)

Thanks again guys!

I could do Shae....

[Kittykatknits]

Interestingly, Cersei also became a really bitter and hateful woman during her years with Robert, same as Lysa here (granted, Cersei is also selfish, power hungry and greedy, but still).

It's been suggested that one of the ways that a woman can achieve autonomy is through widowhood. But, Cersei and Lysa present the idea of waiting to be a widow as much more of a cautionary tale. Both women were pushed in to marriages they did not want to men they despised and grew very bitter over it. They were forced to either wait or give up the love they wanted in their lives and I think paid a price for it. To avoid this fate, Sansa can find a way to achieve what she is looking for now, rather than what for potential events in the future.

Yes, their future reunion will probably be fraught with conflict and misunderstandings since Sansa does seem to hold him leaving her against him together with his botched attempt at taking her with him, while he seems totally broken up about it. We also have the sack of Saltpans which, if Sansa doesn't learn the truth from the EB or Brienne could be potentially disastrous disinformation.

I really wonder if she will believe he was responsible for Saltpans. Even when he was so awful to her on the rooftop, she was thinking about his secret and his fears. Would she really believe that he was responsible for an event where he would have set fire to so much of the town? This might be a very good indicator of what she is now thinking of him though. But, the first time they see each other again will be awkward indeed.

I think Sansa has a lot of thoughts which we are not privy to and this may have been one of them. It's one of the reasons why I think she'll surprise readers in the future. Things which we don't see her considering must still be making an impact and influencing her feelings and decisions.

Yes, and I think this is one of the reasons why so many miss details about Sansa's character. She has so many thoughts that we are teased with, just a hint then nothing. To understand Sansa's thoughts, you have to read across her chapters and across the books to look for explanations and patterns. Martin gives us little pieces and makes us work to figure out what exactly is going on.Many are not going to put in that effort. I agree, many readers are going to be surprised with her in the future.

Could this become a parallel later for Sansa and Sandor? Sansa is as highborn as you get and Sandor has nothing.

It may be. I took this as a message on how a woman could change the social circumstances for their personal desires.

I also owe a writeup on Cersei but it will have to wait until tomorrow. I'm afraid these comments are the limits of my brilliance and insights tonight.

[brashcandy]

I could do Shae....

Thank you! :)

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

If nobody minds a new person hopping in, I can take the Septa Mordane slot. I have some thoughts on how she influenced Sansa (and not necessarily for the good).

Randa setting her cap at Littlefinger: It's definitely possible - even probable. It makes me want to shake her and say "Randa, NOOO!" Of course, Randa has no idea what Littlefinger is really about. She probably just thinks he's handsome, charming, and rich - great husband material, in other words.

Whether her desire to be friends with Sansa is genuine - I haven't decided yet. I did get a "bad feeling about this" vibe from her. I think Sansa will have learned from the Margaery and Olenna situation and will step a lot more carefully. I do agree that Sansa needs good female friends right now.

[Kittykatknits]

About Sansa`s innocence and sweetness, I meant at the end of COK, I meant she has no ill will towards Margaery, she has become different person since her father

This is one of the traits I most admire about her. She thinks on Cersei a few times after leaving KL, but never wishes ill will or vengeance against her. It's the same with Tyrion. She doesn't want to be married to him but she was genuinely upset when LF said he would be dead soon. She does not dwell on hate and is not filled with vengeance. But, I think she was like this while her father was stil alive. :)

Getting away from dreams.....seriously ugh!

A couple of the quotes about Lysa got me thinking about why Sansa may actively kill off LF and why she would use poison. Lysa mentions a woman using poison to defend her child. Lysa also tells Sansa the ingredients of Moon Tea and how it was given to her in order to kill her unborn child. We also have Sansa knowing and seemingly not disapproving of her Mother having slept with LF and an interesting pattern where she has changed her view on bastards quite a bit.

Could it be possible that Sansa does sleep with someone of her choice, gets pregnant and LF tries to have said child killed with Moon Tea? Sansa may recognize the ingredients thanks to Lysa, and then try to protect her own unborn child through poisoning LF.

Or indeed she could do it to protect SR. She did say she was his mother now.

I think the second option is the most likely too. It's my big hope that she will save him and it might just be the thing that pushes her to act.

[brashcandy]

If nobody minds a new person hopping in, I can take the Septa Mordane slot. I have some thoughts on how she influenced Sansa (and not necessarily for the good).

No problemo :)