Heresy 15

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 15.

For those grown old in wickedness the thread needs no introduction, for those new to it or suspecting we’re a bunch of crackpots, I’ll explain…

The Song of Ice and Fire is a complex, multi-layered story in which the game of thrones is underpinned by an elemental conflict which if not resolved by the restoration of the balance will either end in the Ice of an everlasting winter or the Fire of an equally terrible everlasting summer, as promised by Master Benero:

“She [Dany] is Azor Ahai returned… and her triumph over the darkness will bring a summer that will never end… death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn…”

This is the first heresy; that Azor Ahai is not going to save mankind by defeating the Others.

The second heresy centres around the identification of the Others as a race like the Sidhe:

'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.’ (GRRM)

That’s not to say that they are the Sidhe of Celtic legend but the comparators (including the adoption of changelings) go way beyond their outward appearance and are striking enough to justify referring to them as such.

The third, and most controversial heresy is that there is a connection between the Starks and the Others/Sidhe, both of old and more recently through the classic changeling tale of Bael the Bard. We find it significant that they were once Kings of Winter, that their cry is “Winter is Coming”; that they have a sword called Ice and as we have recently discussed probably possessed the Horn of Winter and used it to summon the power of Winter – until it was taken from the Nights King by Joruman.

As Lummel said in his guest editorial opening Heresy 14 this is a very wide ranging and holistic thread covering the story from a number of different angles as we enjoy a good in-depth discussion of what may really be going on rooted in both GRRM’s text and folklore – particularly Celtic and Norse folklore.

Feel free to join in rather than lurk. All that we ask is that your contributions are good natured, respect the opinions of others – and have something to back them up which we can properly chew on.

Earlier incarnations on the thread can be found using the links below:

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies), Heresy six, Heresy seven, Heresy eight, Heresy nine, Heresy ten, Heresy eleven, heresy twelve and heresy thirteen

As a bonus, Heresy Six includes a full transcript of all Old Nan’s tales.

Oops, forgot Heresy 14:

Heresy can be good for you.

[HouseLark]

The Sidhe element is interesting and got me thinking about the nature of the Others. Now this may be my ignorance, but as far as I can recall from the books, the Others have never attacked anyone without being attacked first (I'm referring only to the things we think of as White Walkers rather than the Wights). I can think of three occasions when the Others were killed, in the prologue and in the encounter with Sam and Small Paul. On both occasions it's written as though the Nightswatchmen attacked first and in fact, the Nightswatchmen who were cowering were ignored by the Other involved.

The exception to this is the all out assault on the Watch at the Fist of the First Men. This is where the mythology of the Sidhe comes in. The Sidhe are said to reside under hills/mounds which the protect. So I wonder if by camping on the Fist, the Nights Watch inadvertently provoked the Others into battle by desecrating a place that is under their protection.

I guess anything referring to the Others is a matter of speculation since we have so few "facts" about them but the assumption that they are nothing but a malevolent force is difficult to swallow. They seem so powerful that they could win any physical battle and if annihilation was their aim then it wouldn't be too hard for them to have all but wiped out the Wildlings.

[Uncat]

And welcome to the heretics (if no one has said so before). Yes, those are the lines anlong which many here are and namely Black Crow is thinking.

[FanTasy]

Aha ... this thread is still alive and kicking. As the prodigal son I have come 'home' after not having been at this site due to a lot of work. The Sidhe connection, nice find! Probably someone brought this up (have'nt had the time to read up the last threads, sorry for that) but there is a painting to be found on the internet that struck me after watching the white walker at the end of season 2 of the show. No pointed ears, a lot older/freeze dried, the same skirtlike dress and arm patches, elegant build and elfenlike hair http://www.google.nl...Bg&dur=2705 -- I'm sorry, long link.

ETA The painting is from 2009 by Nicole Cadet, it is a "Dragon Sidhe".

[Eyron]

Welcome back FanTasy, you were missed! Nice picture of that Dragon Sidhe.

About the show look of the Others, we have been discussing if they look tree-like. Like an old old gnarled tree. Personally I think they looked more like extremely old humans, who's bodies has not become weak but the skin show their age.

The thing that made me think of them looking like trees was that in the Season 1 bluray there are pictures of the Children [ETA: and the tree-faces] that looked quite similar to how the Others looked in the Season 2 finale. But how they looked in the show and how GRRM described them to the artist of the Graphic novel differs a lot, which makes things more tricky... Which is more canon?

I would think that the show producers had a good grip on how GRRM intended for the Others to look but perhaps not. The mail sent to the artist seems like it should be more accurate and that lines up pretty well with your picture.

[Uncat]

Yepp, and the Other, that the artist finaly drew does look a lot more the way I had imagined them (though those things on his shoulders give him some alien-from-outer-space touch).

Between the two representations of a White Walker, I would rather take the one from the graphic novel as "more cannon".

[DragonSpawn]

Seemed to me that George's intention was to make the Wight's scary and the Others beautiful.... suggesting that the long-night is not all zombies and apocalypse... but given the shows need to keep the ruse of the WW being as evil as possible... "sword thin, elegant, beautiful, light on snow, cold and quick" - just isn't going to cut it... so they 'beefed up' the show version of the Others... but the origins of the Others are key to understanding them... and if there is a clue in their appearance i don't think D&D could afford to take that out completely... (would be too random later on if they turned out to have a 'good' role to play) ... that long, hanging shot of the White Walkers face in the final episode looks much like Brans description of the Weirwood door beneath the nightfort... and the ice-swords tied with grass hilts could also be another strong clue connecting the Others to the trees... so in that sense - both could be canon... it's just the show likes their w-walkers to be a little more 'hench'? But the Others being wood-dancers (wood-warriors) is good common ground... given the Sidhe being "spritis of nature" ...

[FanTasy]

Thanks for the warm welcome Edeltraud, glad to be back. Hmm ... I always imagined the white walkers as kind of human looking, in a terrifying way. Because I suspect they once were human, bred like in Craster's keep. For me that would be much more scary than some alien life form. In Star Trek the Borg that were assimilated humans scared me the most :)

I never envisioned the white walkers as treelike. Going to check the Blueray images, nice tip, thank you.

[Lannister Hamster]

Could there only be 1000 Wight Walkers (chief others) like there are only 1000 red priests?

[Elaena Targaryen]

I just wanted to say welcome back FanTansy we missed you!

[DragonSpawn]

One thing about that show-scene where the WW is standing over Sam... is the way it looks to the sky as if for orders... then decides to leave Sam alone and order the march onwards...

Seemed important... but hard to know why... was it looking to the sky simply to see which way the clouds were heading... and then followed... was it telepathically asking a 'higher-being' for orders? Maybe the King of Winter...? (Bran / Robb - maybe the spirit of a King who was denied their chance to become part of the tree-godhood...)... Was it looking up to something physical flying overhead? e.g. an Ice Dragon? Or was it a "oh god... is this what the NW has come to?" look..? :D

[Harland Flint]

Sorry, double post

[Harland Flint]

I thought he was looking up at the Fist of the First Men, those darn Night's Watch crawling all over our special hollow hill, digging up dragonglass and things best left undisturbed :P

[Mance Mance Fancy Pants]

The bit about the not attacking until provoked that houselark mentioned brings to mind similar ideas from lots traditional European folklore, such as disguised monsters not being to harm people unless they accepted a gift from the monster and monsters not being able to enter certain buildings unless invited, so its almost as if the others need an invitation to do anything, e.g. the Watch arriving on the fist and setting up camp would've been construed as an invitation. So maybe the magical powers of the wall isn't what's stopping the others, maybe they need to be invited through in some way? Also the theory that the corpses that Jon had put in the ice cells didn't come back because they were chained with iron connects as well, as one of the only ways to harm sidhe and faeries was said to be cold iron....just like the swords the Starks have in the crypts under Winterfell...

[hotweaselsoup]

Or was it a "oh god... is this what the NW has come to?" look..? :D

:lmao:

[FanTasy]

Had a peek into the graphic novel and the visualisation of the white walkers that killed Royce. In the graphic novel they included the shapeshifting armour, the show abandoned this completely. Too costly, more GCI, who knows.

I was impressed by how the white walkers looked in the Season 2 finale but found it a pity they dropped that armour, because of what we discussed earlier (ETA possible connection to the wood dancers).

I always wondered why the white walkers were in need of armour. Putting on armour means you are vulnerable beneath this protection. This would mean they can be hurt or killed and not only by dragonglass? The shapeshifting suggested also that it was meant to make them less visible.

[DragonSpawn]

:lmao:

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "You wouldn't believe how poor the watch rangers have become... killed this crow Waymar, he was as poorly armed as a 6 yr old, and just as slow!"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "Mate, if you think that's bad - i found this fat kid pissing his pants at the FIST... the lads even had a bet on to see how long chubby would last in the cold on his own..."

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "How far did he get?"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "All the way to the Wall!"

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "No way man! Did you forget to use your icy mist? or forget to kill all his mates so he would feel depressed and give up?"

White Walker 2 [Fist]: "Nah... we did all that but some crow tried carrying the fat bugger... Brian wasn't happy about that as he had bet 20 Ice-dragons on chubby not making it to Crasters... so he killed the Crow... only the fat one stuck him with some dagger that turned him into water!"

White Walker 1 [Prologue]: "No way dude! Brian always was a bit wet though!, Har! har! har!... so what's for lunch?"

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Coldhands can't pass through Bloodraven's cave either. Presumably, if what Uncat suggested about him lying isn't true, then it uses the same magic as the Wall (this may have even been suggested or stated in the text - I can't recall).

*ponders* Interesting. I always thought it was the Wall, but it's not stated...

The idea of the Others just wanting their homeland back is not only intriguing, it fits in very well with the overall theme of the books. The Lannisters have Westeros. Stannis wants it because it's rightfully his by the Baratheon line. Backing up a little more, Dany wants it because it's rightfully hers by the Targaryen line. Backing up more, Robb and Balon want their kingdoms because it was theirs before the Targaryens. The Others are just another faction of claimants. (Ten bucks says there's another post almost identical to this one in one of the Heresy threads).

I have always interpretted the fact that Coldhands couldn't pass South of the Wall and the fact that he couldn't enter the Children's cave as fairly strong support for the children-helped-build-the-wall-theory.

Whom they meant to keep on which side remains to be seen....but I do find the fact that humans can pass seemingly unaffected, and Coldhands couldn't pass at all to be telling.

Also related... In my second to last post in 14, we were discussing horns... and I think there is a connection between Others passing the Wall & the Horn of Winter.... also connected, I think, is the Old Nan saying about the NW which goes something like "Monsters can not pass South of the wall so long as the men of the Night's Watch remain true.." may also be connected.

I think it quite likely that there is a connection between Others passing through/over the wall, Horn of Winter, & the NW.

This isn't without contrary data though...

1. I pointed all in 14 (though it certainly could just be an old wives tale) the story of the apprentice boys at the Nightfort... who were attacked by WhiteWalkers(?) - They either got over the wall, or the wall didn't yet exist. Both scenarios have serious implications.

2. Jon's dream with dead men scaling the wall (scaling the wall sounds more like Walkers than wights if you ask me... wights haven't quite mastered the fine art of walking much less climbing 700ft walls.)

Jon's dream reminded me much of Dany's dream about attacking the Others on the Trident from dragonback. Dany sprayed them with dragonfire... Jon's sword burned red hot in his hand **

3. The Othor & Jaffer wights became re-animated South of the wall... though they were carried there...

**Hmm.. isn't there some mythical/historical figure that is supposed to have a burning sword?

[Uncat]

Omebody had been asking about the Others, and I had just posted a lenghy answer just before Heresy 15 came up. A piece of this seems to fit in here

[Long Night blahblah, Battle of the Dawn blahblah Others vanished for good for a long time blahblah and now back...]

But now they are returning, not to wipe out man for a sport but to reclaim their realm and battle the forces of fire and summer back to some extend or even all the way. Man just got between the lines.

So they are not evil. They are just pissed. This from the human point of view does not seem to make much difference but it actually does. Because, if they are evil, nothing will stop them. If they are just pissed, there might be means to make up and stop this whole thing from going down.

There might be even a way to establish a new truce by helping them to battle fire back some way until balance between Ice and Fire is restored, just like the Last Hero might have dome it.

Maybe we should see them neither as force of nature nore as the pure evil, but as just an ordinary old race like the Children. Maybe this is, what the TV show tried to work out. They are just ordinary people (well almost) who are pissed by events a thousan years ago and now have decided to fight bak, just like man would do it. Just like Bran thinks, man would do in the place of the Children. And while maybe are those peacefull treehugers (or not), the Others certainly aren't. And that again is, what GRRM tries to show with their behaviour.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Its worth re-reading the Jon chapter in ADwD where Tormund brings the Free Folk through the Wall - and so many of them actually swear fealty to Jon

Indeed they do. Excellent observation.

In other threads on the topic of Robb's succession, it seems to be widely accepted that Robb's 'Legitimization of Jon / naming Jon his heir' decree is no longer of any consequence. I think it's very important...

No matter what Jon's opinion is in the matter, if either Maege or Galbart survive, doesn't that turn Jon Snow into Jon Stark? I think royal decrees outweigh Jon's thickheaded tendencies.

((and if they made it to Greywater Watch, I can only hope that such a course brings Howland Reed into the picture.))