What is the real reason for the decline of the wall and the NWs?

[Darth Rivers]

The North is more sparsely populated, but it is still one of the most powerful kingdoms. Even with a ridiculously small ratio of people per sq km, it still has several million inhabitants. The southern half is quite densely populated, however, because cities could only arise in areas which produced a lot of food reserve. Especially in the North, with its harsh winters - a city would require immense stockpiles. Which means immense food production capacity, which means lots of agricultural land, which means lots of people in the countryside. 100 landed knights is a crapload, really. Manderly also has several lords with their own vassals sworn to him. The prevalence of trade means many small towns are bound to litter the countryside. It's quite apparent he rules over millions.

[slayer420]

Are we sure that the NW had 10,000 men at the time of Aegon's landing? I was under the impression that number was how many men they had at their peak, but I don't recall any indication that they had that many 300 years prior to the books.

from A game of thrones jon chapter 60 page 663 "When aegon slew Black Harren and claimed the kingdom, Harren's Brother was lord commander on the wall, with 10 thousand swords to hand. He did not march"

[Rayn]

Wasn't it stated somewhere that Eddard and Benjen had talked about/were planning to repopulate the gift?

[Dr. Pepper]

Are we sure that the NW had 10,000 men at the time of Aegon's landing? I was under the impression that number was how many men they had at their peak, but I don't recall any indication that they had that many 300 years prior to the books.

Yes, there were roughly 10,000 men at the wall at the time of Aegon's conquest and all 19 castles were manned. It started to go into decline soon after the continent was united under one kingdom.

[E-Ro]

It was Aegon's Conquest. The constant warfare between the Seven Kingdoms was replaced with the king's peace. The losers of warfare were allowed to take the black, and this supplied the Night's Watch with not just a supply of blacksmiths, carpenters, builders etc. but also lords and knights. The NW then became filled with criminals, with one percent being knights rather than ten percent. As the NW became more of an escape for criminals, the NW reputation became more soiled, making it less attractive for men of high birth to join.

The beginning of the decline of the NW is seen when Queen Alysanne goes to see the Wall, and finds the Nightfort undermanned. She extends the Gift, and pawns her jewels to build two smaller, more manageable castles next to it.

Losers of war? the knights and lords would be ransomed back to their families not sent to the wall.

[slayer420]

I went thur all the names of the NW members to see how many were from the North here are my results.

North 13

reach 12

crownlands 8

westerlands 5

vail 4

stormlands 2

ironIands 2

dorne 1

tyrosh1

unknown 66

swore to the tree 6

This kind of suprised me I thought there would be alot more from the north.

[The Fallen]

The conquest of Aegon didn't decrease the warring. I would argue that the Seven Kingdoms didn't have any real wars, probably border skirmishes like Dorned and The Reach or The Vale and The North. The Riverlands might be the exception. Once Aegon lands there seems to be a lot of fighting and that would have to take its toll on the population. I would say the biggest culprit for the decline or The Wall is the apathy that was destined to set in once The Others disappear.

A good question is when did The Others disappear? Because we know the Night's King was in cahoots with them. Have The Others always been around, but have just been keeping a low profile? I would say that would be the starting point for the diminished esteem that the Night's Watch is held in and thus the lack of support, especially from the South.

I think Ned has done a good job of supporting the Wall. The Starks even sent Benjen and Jon Snow to the Wall.

[The Fallen]

I went thur all the names of the NW members to see how many were from the North here are my results.

North 13

reach 12

crownlands 8

westerlands 5

vail 4

stormlands 2

ironIands 2

dorne 1

tyrosh1

unknown 66

swore to the tree 6

This kind of suprised me I thought there would be alot more from the north.

The reason could be all the criminals that get sent to the Wall from King's Landing and other points South. Although, I don't know how far south the Night's Watch recruiters go.

[Dr. Pepper]

I went thur all the names of the NW members to see how many were from the North here are my results.

North 13

reach 12

crownlands 8

westerlands 5

vail 4

stormlands 2

ironIands 2

dorne 1

tyrosh1

unknown 66

swore to the tree 6

This kind of suprised me I thought there would be alot more from the north.

Thanks for the count! Did you happen to note any of the names? I've been wanting to do something like this but I've been far too lazy.

[slayer420]

Thanks for the count! Did you happen to note any of the names? I've been wanting to do something like this but I've been far too lazy.

no I did not. here is a list of all know Nightwatch members named in the books

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Category:Members_of_the_Night%27s_Watch

It seemed to me that the ones from the north were mostly from houses while most of the others were common people. I think there were only two common people from the north IIRC.

[Bouda]

I always assumed it was due to a number of things such as nobles becoming more paranoid and ambitious. This has lead to the war of the ninepenny kings, robert's rebellion and the war of 5 kings etc. There are chances for glory so knights (whose ranks in the Watch declined before the total ranks declined) are less inclined to volunteer and rather choose to go off with their liege lord, prove how hardcore they are and hopefully rise in the world. As for everyone else it seems to me that you need infrastructure to send criminals to the wall. A lord has to take three or so men to escort a criminal countless leagues north just to get rid of someone. Either that or ship the criminal to their liege lord who is likely preoccupied with playing the game of thrones and will likely just behead the criminals rather than sacrifice valuable men to get rid of them. I think this can explain how they are receiving fewer recruits. Also more people are dying than normal due to the resurgence of the others and the war with the wildlings (not to mention certain treacherous watch executives assassinating one of my favorite characters) has lead to far more casualties than fewer generations have had.

[slayer420]

what I don't get is that a united Kingdom should be sending more people to the wall instead of less. When you had 7 kingdoms it looks like people would be less likely to defend the border of a kingdom that was not apart of them. Why send people to defend the North if you are in the Reach? Looks like they would think that it is the Norths problem to defend there border. You would have to travel thur other kingdoms that are not freindly to each other. Once it was United it looks like there would be more reason to defend the border of the kingdom as a whole instead of less. Maybe it has something to do with the death of dragons and the loss of magic maybe?

[nothatso]

I always compare the Night's Watch to the Teutonic Order. Other than the religious motivation, I think it's the closest real-world comparison. Both were in northern regions, both are military orders that require their members to give up their possessions when they join, etc. The Teutonic Order was established to fight an enemy in the Lithuanian pagans that eventually disappeared (or converted, in their case), not entirely unlike the watch with The Others. When the Pagans were gone, the Teutonic crusader state remained. Struggling to find a purpose they picked fights with other Christians, like Poland and Orthodox Novgorod, which could be compared to the Night's Watch fighting the wildlings. Over time the Teutonic Order declined in prestige, size, and relevance as Catholic Europe saw no reason to support a crusader state that only fought other Christians in the absence of pagans or other "heathens". Similarly people mock the Night's Watch for fighting against seemingly mythical enemies.

It doesn't quite fit chronologically, as the Teutonic Order didn't exist for thousands of years between the time the pagans were defeated and the time that they started to decline, but I think it still makes for an interesting comparison in the decline of military orders, and the explanation for the Night's Watch's decline may be just as simple. Of course in the case of the Teutonic Order the pagans never actually returned, while The Others seemingly are.

More on the comparison in spoiler tags to save space, as it's less relevant to the topic of the thread:

Albert, of a cadet branch of the House of Hohenzollern, was elected Grand Master in the hope that he would bring some prestige back to the order. However he found himself surrounded by enemies and believed the crusader state was on the verge of destruction. He pleaded with the Holy Roman Emperors for help, largely to no avail, as the lands under his command were ravaged by war with Poland. Under advisement from Martin Luther, Albert made sweeping reforms.

This more or less brings us to the Night's Watch in it's current state, with Jon Snow as Lord Commander attempting to make reforms to ensure survival while simultaneously looking for help from the nobility of the realm. Albert's own reforms, encouraged by Luther, culminated in his secularization of the Teutonic Order's lands and naming himself the first Duke of Prussia. (which over time would evolve into the Kingdom of Prussia and the German Empire) The Teutonic Order technically survives today, but after Albert annexed their lands they relocated first to southern Germany then to Austria.

Perhaps somebody with a greater knowledge of Northern European history can set me straight if I'm misunderstanding something, but I find the similarities compelling.

[The Fallen]

Do you think The Others have purposely stayed out of sight to lull Westeros into a fall sense of security and have decided that the Night's Watch is sufficiently weakened for them to successfully attack the realm?

[Dr. Pepper]

I always assumed it was due to a number of things such as nobles becoming more paranoid and ambitious.

It could be that, though ambition and paranoia wasn't some unique to Targ rule. It existed well before Targs arrived. Every petty kingdom had to deal with ambitious bannermen or other kingdoms and yet they were still sending people who were not criminals to the wall. I think the true problem was that the Wall became a penal colony under Targ rule. The honor and quality of the order dropped to a degree that men are unlikely to consider it a suitable profession. Non-criminals generally don't want to hang out with criminals. I don't think there are a whole lot of people trying to break into prisons just so they can get a job washing dishes or making license plates.

[Thallus]

Women.

[slayer420]

Do you think The Others have purposely stayed out of sight to lull Westeros into a fall sense of security and have decided that the Night's Watch is sufficiently weakened for them to successfully attack the realm?

Have not thought about this before. We know after they were defeated the first time they still came back. So what caused them to disapear. We also know that crakster was giving his sons to them so they have been around just not attacking. Maybe building up there numbers?

It could be that, though ambition and paranoia wasn't some unique to Targ rule. It existed well before Targs arrived. Every petty kingdom had to deal with ambitious bannermen or other kingdoms and yet they were still sending people who were not criminals to the wall. I think the true problem was that the Wall became a penal colony under Targ rule. The honor and quality of the order dropped to a degree that men are unlikely to consider it a suitable profession. Non-criminals generally don't want to hang out with criminals. I don't think there are a whole lot of people trying to break into prisons just so they can get a job washing dishes or making license plates.

that is something that they would have done once the honor and quality of the order droped, not while they were at there peak and some LC said we dont have enought rapest around lets take all of them in the kingdom

[Dr. Pepper]

that is something that they would have done once the honor and quality of the order droped, not while they were at there peak and some LC said we dont have enought rapest around lets take all of them in the kingdom

I'm not sure I'm following. The quality dropped because it became a penal colony. The 10,000 men sworn to the Watch would have been there until they died because their vows were lifelong. But at some point soon after the Targ dynasty was established, something occurred that turned the wall into a virtual prison. There are fewer prisoners than men seeking a profession, thus there would be fewer men at the wall once it transformed into a prison.

[slayer420]

What I was saying is that there had to be something else that caused the fall. It couldn't be that one day they just started taking prisoners and the good people quit coming. I good LC would have seen this and stoped taking them. I think it had to be a last resort not the cause.

[danm_999]

Have not thought about this before. We know after they were defeated the first time they still came back. So what caused them to disapear. We also know that crakster was giving his sons to them so they have been around just not attacking. Maybe building up there numbers?

that is something that they would have done once the honor and quality of the order droped, not while they were at there peak and some LC said we dont have enought rapest around lets take all of them in the kingdom

It's not the Lord Commanders prerogative though. He doesn't control who is sent to the Wall and he's not allowed to turn people away.

It's entirely possible the Targaryens began viewing the Wall as a Westerosi Botany Bay, which ruined the image of the Order in the eyes of volunteers.