Things characters said that made you go like "HOW DARE YOU?!"

[Lady Storm]

Indeed. And yet I'd say the situations are fairly different, given that one entails a hurtful, nasty comment; the other not only nasty comments, but terrifying threats and rape. All in all, I'd say that one cruel comment is not really the equivalent of rape. But that's just me.

The power balances are also rather different. Jon's the son of an incredibly powerful nobleman, even if he is illegitimate. He's been brought to a great castle and raised alongside the lords son, in opposition to all social codes, been treated as an equal to them. He clearly has some power to defend himself. In contrast, the girl Tyrion rapes is a slave, and, (as he explicitely points out) he is able to do anything to her- rape her or murder her, if he pleases. She has no power whatsoever, not even the power to defend herself from a brutal rape or murder.

In the end making cruel, nasty comments to one's husband's illegitimate son is quite terrible. But I'm not sure most people would agree that there's really no difference morally between that and rape.

Whell, when you present it like that, sure.

But let's look at it from another view point. Tyrion just met the girl, was awful to her and then left.

Now Jon grew up with a person that was the next best thing he knew for a mother - a substitute. The dynamics of a husband-wife relationship as well as mother-children are what he learned form Cat. From his early age to his teens, this person did nothing but show him that he is worth less, that he is not a part, that he doesn't belong, that he has no family, nothing to inherit and nothing to participate in. He brings shame to the family and should not be seated with them on feasts.

So something is wrong with him, something is bad, amiss, he's faulty. And yet, the only thing that keeps being pointed out as he difference is that he's a bastard. Now, little Jon cannot change this. No matter how good, smart, brave or beautiful he is, nothing seems to matter, and his treatment remains the same. So he's blamed for a thing he cannot change and is not himself guilty for. But no one is treating Ned any different, so it has to be him, right?

And while Jon may have some power to defend himself (although none directly - his only power is Ned and the fact that he likes him) physically, and socially, thanks to Ned, Arya and Robb, he has no power to defend himself emotionally (from her, at least).

So little Jon grows up, and starts to understand the he cannot be guilty for being a bastard. This woman is deliberately shaming him and cutting him out of the family the best she can, and yet no one is giving her a bad time for it. He must be angry, hurt and frustrated.

And yet, there is no conceivable way he can express his hurt, his anger and his sadness regarding Cat's behavior. He cannot complain to Ned - she is his wife, the one he choose over her mother. He cannot complain to Robb - she is his mother. In fact, he cannot communicate with anyone about it - for he is a sign of weakness that has been given more that he's entitled to and she is the lady that gracefully accepted her husbands mistake.

Now can you imagine growing up in a situation where the only substitute for a mother you had was emotionally abusing you for 15 years and there is no one you can tell this to? Can you imagine the permanent damage, hurt, feeling of self-loathing, of being an outcast this causes you? And this culminating with the said lady telling you she's wishing you dead while you're experiencing one of the most traumatizing (if not THE most traumatizing event) in your life so far?

Tyrion came into the girls life, and was out quickly again. Cat was there to stay, and judging by the identity-issues, sex-issues and nightmares Jon is experiencing 4 books later, she's staying for good.

[A song away]

I also found the continued nastiness of Cersei to a hand-less Jaime very annoying.

I laughed so hard when Randyll said that.

Men who find rape or threats of it funny :ack:

[Lummel]

...Now Jon grew up with a person that was the next best thing he knew for a mother - a substitute...

Tyrion came into the girls life, and was out quickly again. Cat was there to stay, and judging by the identity-issues, sex-issues and nightmares Jon is experiencing 4 books later, she's staying for good.

I don't think there is any suggestion in the text that Catelyn is meant to be or regarded as or could be seen as a substitute mother for Jon. Quite the opposite, everybody else seems to have their bastards brought up away from home at least until they reach their majority.

Catelyn isn't responsible for Jon's bastard status, she doesn't make him a bastard. Even if The Ned hadn't married Catelyn Jon would still be a bastard and unable to inherit and have the same sense of not wanting to father a bastard himself.

But all of this is off topic really...

[Snow_Shrike]

When Samwell is remembering why he joined the Night's Watch, the story shocked me so completely that I haven't forgot it. His Father, the ever-smiling ray of sunshine known as Randyll Tarly, doesn't consider Sam to be a suitable heir, and wants his younger son to inherit. He takes Sam hunting, and suggests that unless Sam joins the NW, there will be an accident next time they go hunting, a fatal one. :unsure:

Sam decides to join the watch.

It's appalling. Randyll Tarly isn't exactly an charm school graduate, but threatening the life of your child because you don't think he's man enough to be your heir is despicable. After that, nothing Tarly did or said surprised me, even what he said about Brienne.

[Lady Storm]

I don't think there is any suggestion in the text that Catelyn is meant to be or regarded as or could be seen as a substitute mother for Jon. Quite the opposite, everybody else seems to have their bastards brought up away from home at least until they reach their majority.

Catelyn isn't responsible for Jon's bastard status, she doesn't make him a bastard. Even if The Ned hadn't married Catelyn Jon would still be a bastard and unable to inherit and have the same sense of not wanting to father a bastard himself.

But all of this is off topic really...

I never said she should have been a substitute, but she surly was - she was the person the rest of his family perceived as The Mother and thus occupied this specific social role. The way this plays out for other bastard-children is not really relevant for these two and their dynamics.

But you're right - I've just realized I've done the exact opposite of my original intentions, and for this I apologize. My intention was to say and show that I believe this should not be a thread where we evaluate "how dare you" moments for other people. These kind of moments seem to be more emotional and less of a blame game, so there's no real "winner" in the schmuck category.

[David C. Hunter]

Every last time Dany said something about her opinions of alleged 'Traitors"

Really infuriating. I was always like, How Dare you?

[Wyman's Man]

QCI seriously stop trolling. Tyrion did not rape that girl because he didn't have sex with her. If you believe the mere threat after being treated like shit constitutes rape rather than the actual act, you might as well arrest the entire male race. What a load of bollocks. Tyrion is not a perfect character, but for someone whose sn is QCI you have to think about all the horrible things QCI did in AFfC which was much more than what Tyrion perpetuated in ADwD.

[Tagganaro]

I always really hated when Stannis first meets Jon and says something along the lines of "Your brother was a traitor and got what he deserved" or something like that. I was just thinking, How Dare you Stannis, you're better than that right?

Also, any words out of the mouth of Rhaegar Frey about the RW.

Any words from Janos Slynt or Alliser Thorne or even Bowen Marsh.

Randyll Tarly's good hard rape line to Brienne

[Thallus]

When Samwell is remembering why he joined the Night's Watch, the story shocked me so completely that I haven't forgot it. His Father, the ever-smiling ray of sunshine known as Randyll Tarly, doesn't consider Sam to be a suitable heir, and wants his younger son to inherit. He takes Sam hunting, and suggests that unless Sam joins the NW, there will be an accident next time they go hunting, a fatal one.

Its preferable to the alternative.

Personally I found Arya's: "I know you're the one who has been hitting me",

to be the most galling line. She's in training, abusing her warging to not obtain the skills that she is meant to be learning annoyed me. Yay she learned a skill, but she grievously stunted her perceptive and martial abilities.

[Pod The Impaler]

It's appalling. Randyll Tarly isn't exactly an charm school graduate, but threatening the life of your child because you don't think he's man enough to be your heir is despicable. After that, nothing Tarly did or said surprised me, even what he said about Brienne.

Randyll Tarly is just all kinds of wrong when it comes to parenting. What he said to Brienne was not surprising, but still makes one wish the man would suffer a horrble nut-removing mishap.

Every story Sam mentions is pretty much a horror story. "Dad threw me in a moat", "dad said I'd be better dead than a maester" "dad said he'd rather have a hunting accident for me", etc.

If Sam didn't want to join the NW, and Tarly had to just-plain-disown his son, why would he care - if Sam was a craven, what would he ever do about it?

If there is a "worst father in in Westeros" award, the top 5 would be:

Tywin Lannister

Roose Bolton

Randyll Tarly

Craster

Walder Frey

Maybe Tarly should be #4 and Craster #3, but I'd rather have been one of Robert's many bastards than have the fatherly attention of any of these sickos.

[Thallus]

Randyll Tarly is just all kinds of wrong when it comes to parenting. What he said to Brienne was not surprising, but still makes one wish the man would suffer a horrble nut-removing mishap.

Oh so wishing castration is ok, but wishing rape isn't? Hypocrite much?

[SerStinger]

Indeed. And yet I'd say the situations are fairly different, given that one entails a hurtful, nasty comment; the other not only nasty comments, but terrifying threats and rape. All in all, I'd say that one cruel comment is not really the equivalent of rape.

It's not rape though. Rape is forcing someone else to have sex with you. The girl was a whore and submitted willingly. She might have loathed the act, but rape is not "having a sex you don't enjoy".

Of course, you might argue in return that sleeping with every whore is immoral and degrading of her, and I'd agree with that completely, and it is one of Tyrion's many vices. However, it's not on the same level as rape.

[The Snow King]

It's not rape though. Rape is forcing someone else to have sex with you. The girl was a whore and submitted willingly. She might have loathed the act, but rape is not "having a sex you don't enjoy"

She wasn't a whore, she was a (sex) slave, so her whole life is a life of rape - the lack of choice being a main point of slavery. The fact that she may have accepted that, growing up in culture that supports slavery annd/or being forced to accept it by slavers doesn't change the fact.

At the same time, the Tyrion passage was less of "how dare you" but 'oh, how low have you fallen'. From major player in the whole kingdom to a guy that is so insecure, that he resorts to death threats just to make a slave girl afraid. Pathetic and pitiful. And it's a trend that continued in ADWD, with Tyrion being slowly deconstructed.

[Queen Cersei I]

Whell, when you present it like that, sure.

Well (or whell?) I really don't see any other way to "present it." Cat said something nasty. Tyrion raped someone. The only way you can get around this massive difference is with bland rhetorical tricks and poorly thought out moral relativism.

If you want to argue that you personally sympathize more with Jon for being insulted than with a sex slave for being raped, that's fine. But the two situations are, morally speaking, incomparable.

The difference is that Jon's pain is focused on extensively, and we are very much encouraged to feel for him. (Cat is very much cast into the role of the villain here.) Meanwhile, numerous steps are taken to encourage sympathy for Tyrion as he rapes and threatens the most helpless members of his society. And the sex slave remains a veritable cipher. So your testament that while Jon is scarred for life by Cat's insult; but that the sex slave doesn't have it so bad since Tyrion merely raped her and was "In and out of her life" (since being raped apparently doesn't really cause long term trauma, so long as the rapist is a near stranger who walks out of one's life shortly after he violates you), really makes no sense on anything other than a personal level. You may feel sorrier for Jon than for the nameless sex slave, but this has nothing to do with morality or the most basic common sense.

Whell, when you present it like that, sure.

But let's look at it from another view point. Tyrion just met the girl, was awful to her and then left..

Tyrion raped her and then left. I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but rape is probably the single most traumatic experience someone can go through, regardless of how long the rapist "stays" afterward.

Tyrion came into the girls life, and was out quickly again. Cat was there to stay, and judging by the identity-issues, sex-issues and nightmares Jon is experiencing 4 books later, she's staying for good.

Do you think after a man rapes a woman, he's "out quickly again?" You note "judging by the idenity issues, sex issues, nightmare issues Jon is experiencing..." You don't think a woman who is raped, whether it be by a near stranger or a family member, is going to be deeply scarred by this? For the rest of her life? How ridiculous.

Also-- I'm honestly not sure what "sex issues" jon has related to Cat. Nor has she ever at any point abused him. She avoided a strange boy her husband took home without her permission. You say that this is abuse since Jon could not communicate his discomfort to Ned; in that case Cat was also heavily abused by having a strange child forced upon her.

Your protestations that rape and one insult (or rape and avoiding your husband's illegitimate child whom he forced upon you've allowed to live amongst your own family) are the same morally is ridiculous. You may feel sorrier for Jon Snow having to deal with Cat avoiding him than you do for a rape victim we know next to nothing about. You may feel sorrier for Tyrion and his tragic inability to get hot girls and the fact that the hot girls he's been paying to sleep with him don't really want him, and now he feels he must punish totally innocent people for this fact than for a nameless, historyless girl whom Tyrion raped. But this is a personal preference, not a general moral standard. Comparing the two situations is ridiculous.

[Knight Of Winter]

"Lannister or Stark, what difference? Viserys used to call them the Usurper's dogs. If a child is set upon by a pack of hounds, does it matter which one tears out his throat? All the dogs are just as guilty."

(I'm sorry if this is divisive, but it really, really annoys/ enrages me).

This. I like and root for Dany most of the time, but with occasional things/sayings like this, she shows she's still unable to accpet that her family were not perfect people unjustly dethroned by these vile, vile usurpers and traitors.

In addition, I'd like to add Tywin having Ice reforged. Sansa's shock and reaction well matched my own - that was simply...wrong on so many levels and Lannisters had no right to do it.

[Pellaeon]

When LF told Sansa about Tysha, I don't have the quote but this lie was so awful

[The Storm Queen]

QCI seriously stop trolling. Tyrion did not rape that girl because he didn't have sex with her. If you believe the mere threat after being treated like shit constitutes rape rather than the actual act, you might as well arrest the entire male race. What a load of bollocks. Tyrion is not a perfect character, but for someone whose sn is QCI you have to think about all the horrible things QCI did in AFfC which was much more than what Tyrion perpetuated in ADwD.

First: We do not know if he had sex with her or not, this was left open

Second: The nameless sex slave did not treat him like shit so she surely can not be hold responsible for Tyrion´s mood, can she?

Third; Do you really argue that "the entire male race" somehow has on one point in their life dished out rape threaths to one woman or the other? Because this is the most disturbing shit I ever read on a forum. If it is only meant as hyperbole it is a bad strawmen argument

Concerning CCI: You are not only rude to her but you also did not seem to understand the idea behind this topic. It is not about sympathy or condemnation but about discussing scenes in the books that made the posters feel "how dare you". The Tyrion scene in question had the same impact on me, and by the way, many male friends of mine felt also nauseous after reading this and had lost lots of respect they earlier on had for Tyrion. Concerning Cersei in Dance and Feast: Her ordering the torture of other peoples was also a "how dare you" moment for me and I am sure no one in this forum would disagree. So if you want to discuss this post the quote and we can discuss it. But QQI is in no way required to post every evil thing Cersie ever had done in this discussion only because she chose this username. And surely we also can discuss tyrion and Cersei seperatly?

[Jon Mark Selmy]

"It should have been you" - Catelyn Stark... This made me very, very sad.

“It might please m’lord to strangle you. That’s how I served my last whore. Do you think your master would object? Surely not. He has a hundred more like you, but no one else like me.” This time, when he grinned, he got the fear he wanted."

Perhaps I'm to harsh in my judgement, but to me both quotes show the darkest side of characters that would otherwise be at least likeable. And no, I don't think the traumas they suffered were any excuse. As the great king Stannis would say "the good does not wash the bad nor the bad washes the good."

That aside,

"

The only part of me that interests me is the part between your legs..." is just Tyrion being very rude and humorous at the same time. It's later that this turns into outright cruelty. In fact, I was very simpathetic of Tyrion until the end of ASOS. I stll find it hard not to like his humor, but he has really lost my rooting for him precisely at this point. Perhaps he will redeem himself... but he has lost the status of "anti-hero" and became a villain with redeeming qualities at this very point.

[Snowborn]

Stannis throwing a leech on the fire for Robb Stark.

"The last was in the king’s hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. 'The usurper,' he said at last. 'Robb

Stark.' And he threw it on the flames."

I was like "Stannis you asshole what the hell are you doing!?"

[Jon Mark Selmy]

If you believe the mere threat after being treated like shit constitutes rape rather than the actual act, you might as well arrest the entire male race. What a load of bollocks.

Of course! Who hasn't threatened to rape one or two girls for not wanting to fuck, right? It's just something we men do on the weekends between having lunch and playing videogames. Haven't you heard?

Seriously, though. I'm not one to suffer the "Cersei/Danny/Sansa/Caetelyn Are Perfect Brigade", but this was out of line, dude.

(...)The Tyrion scene in question had the same impact on me, and by the way, many male friends of mine felt also nauseous after reading this and had lost lots of respect they earlier on had for Tyrion. (...)

I was one of the men who lost lots of respect for Tyrion at this very point, as my previous post showed.