Things characters said that made you go like "HOW DARE YOU?!"

[Lummel]

...My intention was to say and show that I believe this should not be a thread where we evaluate "how dare you" moments for other people. These kind of moments seem to be more emotional and less of a blame game, so there's no real "winner" in the schmuck category.

Slightly more on topic I think these emotional moments are key in GRRM's technique.

He's famously fond of the idea of the 'human heart divided against itself' and part of what he's doing is, I think, forcing us as readers to have twisted, torn and divided hearts over the characters he creates. A good part of that is to have characters who were sympathatic or who are otherwise sympathetic and show a darker side to their character or to show them to us in a bleak moment or to give a grey character an apparently redeeming feature.

It's miserably good fun. :)

[Kittykatknits]

When LF told Sansa about Tysha, I don't have the quote but this lie was so awful

Are you referring to the line where he describes her sigil as somethig like 50 pieces of silver and one gold on a blody white sheet? That was pretty brutal.

- Just about every single word out of Randal Tarly's mouth, whether we heard it directly or through Sam.

- Tywin destroying Ice. He's done many despicable acts but that was one of the worst.

[Pellaeon]

Are you referring to the line where he describes her sigil as somethig like 50 pieces of silver and one gold on a blody white sheet? That was pretty brutal.

Could be, I mean when he told her Tyrion gave her to his fathers guards

[Winter's Knight]

Are you referring to the line where he describes her sigil as somethig like 50 pieces of silver and one gold on a blody white sheet? That was pretty brutal.

That was Tyrion, actually-during their bedding:

Who was she, my lord?” Sansa was curious despite herself.

“Lady Tysha.” His mouth twisted. “Of House Silverfist. Their arms have one gold coin and a hundred silver, upon a bloody sheet. Ours was a very short marriage . . . as befits a very short man, I suppose

I had a "How dare you" moment when Robert B. delivered the following fan favourite:

Wear it in silence or I'll honour you again.

Classy.

Also when Cersei gave Falyse to Qyburn and when Kevan spoke to her after the WoS:

The queen took Qyburn aside and told him of Ser Balman’s folly. “I cannot have Falyse spreading tales about the city. Her grief has made her witless. Do you still need women for your . . . work?”

“I do, Your Grace. The puppeteers are quite used up.”

“Take her and do with her as you will, then. But once she goes down into the black cells . . . need I say more?”

“No, Your Grace. I understand.”

“Not here. No son should have to bear witness to his mother’s shame.” Ser Kevan’s voice was harsh. “Cover her up.”

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Whatever (Un)Cat says and does.

Arya's three death wishes.

Jon gone to the Wall

Robb marrying Jeyne. I mean come on don't be so much alike Ned please.

[Kittykatknits]

Could be, I mean when he told her Tyrion gave her to his fathers guards

That was Tyrion, actually-during their bedding:

I had a "How dare you" moment when Robert B. delivered the following fan favourite:

Wear it in silence or I'll honour you again.

Classy.

Also when Cersei gave Falyse to Q

It's still early in the morning I guess. For some reason, I saw Pellaeon's post and read it as Tyrion talking to Sansa.

But, LF's line was pretty nasty too. Pretty apparent he was trying to quickly estrange Sansa from every other person in her life in order to make her completely dependent upon him.

[Lady Storm]

Slightly more on topic I think these emotional moments are key in GRRM's technique.

He's famously fond of the idea of the 'human heart divided against itself' and part of what he's doing is, I think, forcing us as readers to have twisted, torn and divided hearts over the characters he creates. A good part of that is to have characters who were sympathatic or who are otherwise sympathetic and show a darker side to their character or to show them to us in a bleak moment or to give a grey character an apparently redeeming feature.

Yes, and while this is an up-point of his writing, more often than not this seems to be the down point for people discussing these books. We get emotionally attached to our characters and defend them in every conceivable way, missing the point along the way: that they should be gray. That often leads to some very heated and not-so-nice discussions and name calling.

And it can be constructive, as long as we keep in mind that we're partialy projecting our life and values on the characters, and that there shouldn't be a "winner" in any cathegory, good or bad anyways.

If you want to argue that you personally sympathize more with Jon for being insulted than with a sex slave for being raped, that's fine. But the two situations are, morally speaking, incomparable.

No, not really, in fact I find all the rape in the books quite repulsing. What I was trying to say is that this thread is more of an "in the eyes of the beholder" than "count the points, make a verdict" kind of a discussion.

The difference is that Jon's pain is focused on extensively, and we are very much encouraged to feel for him. (Cat is very much cast into the role of the villain here.) Meanwhile, numerous steps are taken to encourage sympathy for Tyrion as he rapes and threatens the most helpless members of his society.

The first part has nothing to do with the juckyness of the act itself and more to do with the book plot (or GRRM's general neglect to show the depth of rape-related suffering, if you will).

And children are not one of the most helpless members of his society?

So your testament that while Jon is scared for life by Cat's insult; but that the sex slave doesn't have it so bad since Tyrion merely raped her and was "In and out of her life" (since being raped apparently doesn't really cause long term trauma, so long as the rapist is a near stranger who walks out of one's life shortly after he violates you), really makes no sense on anything other than a personal level.

Do you think after a man rapes a woman, he's "out quickly again?" You note "judging by the idenity issues, sex issues, nightmare issues Jon is experiencing..." You don't think a woman who is raped, whether it be by a near stranger or a family member, is going to be deeply scarred by this? For the rest of her life? How ridiculous.

I never said that what Tyrion did was somehow less bad by what Cat did, and quite frankly, that would be an absurd statement - I've pointed out that he was a limited time offender ans she was a life-long abuser. That has to do with Cat, not Tyrion.

And while rape is tremendesly traumatick, so is childhood abuse, and neglect.

Again, I'm not defending Tyrion - I'm attacking Cat (and used Tyrion as an comparison, wich I now regret). Scratch all mention of Tyrion from that post and you still get the same idea behind it.

And I'm not doing this to dich Cat - I like Cat. But that doesnt excuse her actions.

Also-- I'm honestly not sure what "sex issues" jon has related to Cat. Nor has she ever at any point abused him. She avoided a strange boy her husband took home without her permission. You say that this is abuse since Jon could not communicate his discomfort to Ned; in that case Cat was also heavily abused by having a strange child forced upon her.

He seems to think fathering a bastard is the worst thing he could ever do and despises the whole idea of sex because of it. That seems to be a serious sex-issue, not coming from sexual abuse.

Your protestations that rape and one insult (or rape and avoiding your husband's illegitimate child whom he forced upon you've allowed to live amongst your own family) are the same morally is ridiculous. But this is a personal preference, not a general moral standard. Comparing the two situations is ridiculous.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. It's clearly a personal standard - in both cases. How do you determine wich act is worse, when we're talking about two people that have violated tha same two basic principles: 1. do not abuse people 2. who aren't able to defend themselves?

Do we give Cat extra points because, hey, Ned loved Jon? Do we give Tyrion extra points because, hey, she's a sex-slave, that's what she does for a living? Do we give Cat extra points for not poisoning the child? Do we give Tyrion extra points for not doing what he threatened to do?

You accuse me of personal statements, and yet defend Cat in the same sentence with the bolded part. How is that not personal? Why should I care that she had a rough time? She's still abusing a child. Or if I should care (and now I do make a comparison between the two), why shouldn't I care for Tyrion and his personal trauma?

This whole discusion started because you felt that the Tyrion-scene was the most horrifing in the books (which is your right an I fully understand why it would be) and then replyied that we should excuse Cat's behaviour for external circumstances. And while I in no way think you have to extend the same courtesy to Tyrion, I think you should alow other people to do that, or reverse their judgement of both characters.

[WenchofTarth]

The outrage in this thread is really amusing, especially the hate for the male characters. Makes me wonder why some people read this stuff, must make their blood pressure spike every other page. People are mean to women left and right after all.

I'll go with what the OP gave, Mel giving Jon a "you know nothing, Jon Snow". I have to wonder if Mel somehow knows about that, coincidences that obvious make me suspicious. Poking at Jon that way... :(

[Fire and Blood!]

Whenever Stannis starts ranting about how much of a rightful king he is.

[total1402]

Dany calling the Starks the usurpers dogs n ignoring Barristan trying to tell her otherwise.

When she tells Jorah he betrayed her and exiles him. I honestly wanted to step into the book and penguin slap her.

[RedBean]

The Freys lying about the Red Wedding.

And Tywin breaking Ice.

[The Drunkard]

- The way Dany treats half of everyone. Ughughguh.

- The way Stannis treats half of everyone. Love the guy, but he can be a jerk.

- Every single thing Randyl says.

- Melisandre's way of demeaning everyone all the time.

- Almost everything Joffrey says. When he's in little bitch mode, I can't stand him.

- Euron's treatment of the family he took a shield island off. That was just so cruel. Took their castle, turned them into servants, had them strip for a bunch of sweaty, horny pirates. Wowzer.

[RoamingRonin]

"... I did not mean to give offense, ser." - Sansa

"Nor could you, Lady Sansa." - Ser Loras

How dare you, Ser Fancy Flower? Also: When the Goodwife slaps Arya and when Tyrion calls the Tower of the Hand his after Tywin returns. Delusional dwarf, you were acting as Hand of the King. He would have been bitter even if Tywin congratulated him on everything.

EDIT:

I also don't like when Dany snaps on her handmaidens. Two examples I can think of: when one of them is warning her about ghosts and she says something along the lines of "Enough of that silly talk. Collect sand for my bath." And when Irri and Jhqui are fawning over one of her bloodriders (Rhakaro, I think?) and she tells them to shut up and stop being silly. I guess she's the only one that can be silly when it comes to men.

[Ice Turtle]

Arya having Ser Illyn on her list. He is just a headsman.

[Lothar Imbel]

Stannis throwing a leech on the fire for Robb Stark.

"The last was in the king’s hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. 'The usurper,' he said at last. 'Robb

Stark.' And he threw it on the flames."

I was like "Stannis you asshole what the hell are you doing!?"

Why? Robb was technically a usurper in Stannis' eyes, he was claiming half the Kingdom.

[A song away]

Of course! Who hasn't threatened to rape one or two girls for not wanting to fuck, right? It's just something we men do on the weekends between having lunch and playing videogames. Haven't you heard?

You're right. If a guy threatened me in this way, I would not rest until I destroyed him.

Luckily, in my view, the great majority of men are not like that.

[Liar]

If there is a "worst father in in Westeros" award, the top 5 would be:

Tywin Lannister

Roose Bolton

Randyll Tarly

Craster

Walder Frey

Haha Craster #4? There should be a special place just for him in the seventh hell. That's another whole level of bad parenting. :lol:

[StannisBamfatheon]

Everytime Dany calls Ned Stark "the usurpers dog" I feel like Samuel L jackson in pulp fiction...

"Say usurpers dog again! Say usurpers dog again! I dare you, I double dare you mothafucka!"

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany calling the Starks the usurpers dogs n ignoring Barristan trying to tell her otherwise.

When she tells Jorah he betrayed her and exiles him. I honestly wanted to step into the book and penguin slap her.

You want to slap Dany for exiling the man who almost caused the death of her and her unborn child? Ok.

[David Selig]

Meliasandre:

"Then you know nothing, Jon Snow"

Gurl, just because you're a ginger, does NOT make your trifling self Ygritte.

Who you finna try!!!!!

If you're gonna copy a girl, atleast say "You" not "THEN, you".

It's a natural thing to say when you talk to a fool like Jon Snow.