R+L=J v.29

[dragontamer]

For the sake of argument I pose these questions... Why Ashara's dishonor by a Stark didn't start a war? Dayne imo was a more influential House at the time due to their alliances (House Martell, House Targaryen). Even Robert himself had "dishonored" Lady Delena of House Florent, a noble family and had to acknowledge the child but no war started. Btw, who started the rebellion? The Baratheons? NO. Not after Lyanna was "kidnapped". The Starks? NO. Not even after the deaths of Rickard and Brandon. I strongly beleive that the reasons behind the rebellion were a lot different than we think, don't forget that Martin is writing a fiction but also a deeply political novel. I have a few ideas about that but aren't completely formed yet. There are lot information we don't know and I won't be surprised if the whole R+L=J theory will prove just a big red herring.

[oursisfury]

Jon Arryn raised his banners in revolt after Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads after Rickard and Brandon died in King's Landing standing trial.

[dragontamer]

Jon Arryn raised his banners in revolt after Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads after Rickard and Brandon died in King's Landing standing trial.

Ask yourself.... you gave the answer... why Arryn? Was he more offended than the Starks? And why so long after the abduction? Again question yourself.... why ask for Robert's head? What had ever Robert done to him or to his family? If anything Rhaegar had offended him and Robert had not acted against him.

There was something building up in Westeros, imo, for years, a plan to overthrow Targaryens. We get a small glimpse from the Defiance of Duskendale several years before RR. All they lack was the spark to light the fire.

[LadyMary]

Ask yourself.... you gave the answer... why Arryn? Was he more offended than the Starks? And why so long after the abduction? Again question yourself.... why ask for Robert's head? What had ever Robert done to him or to his family? If anything Rhaegar had offended him and Robert had not acted against him.

There was something building up in Westeros, imo, for years, a plan to overthrow Targaryens. We get a small glimpse from the Defiance of Duskendale several years before RR. All they lack was the spark to light the fire.

I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with R+L=J but Jon Arryn raised his banners after the mad King ordered the deaths of Robert Bartheon and Ned Stark who were foster sons and whom he loved as much as real sons. That, and Robert and Ned had committed no offense against the King. I think it was personal for Jon Arryn also because Aerys had killed his heir.

That being said, from circumstantial evidence in the books it is probable that Rickard Stark was conspiring with certain Southron Lords maybe to replace Aerys, if not the whole Targaryen dynasty. I got the impression that Rhaegar was possibly part of the conspiracy prior to the Tourney of Harrenhal. Aerys was mentally ill and deeply paranoid, but there were some Lords who conspired against him. His over-reaction to Brandon's impulsive threat against Rhaegar was his downfall. If he'd been in his right mind, he might have used Brandon's actions to put Rickard in his place. Instead he killed both of them along with their bannermen and allies, and ordered the deaths of Rickard's second son and his future son-in-law which started a rebellion that Aerys wanted to thwart.

[Sapphire]

:agree: "Unfortunately" when you're casting actors, it's not only about how good they look or how similar to the character in the books they are... it's first and foremost about the acting. Kit doesn't look anything like the Jon I imagine in the books. He is very Stark-like in his features although the colours are all off. His hair is black and his eyes are very dark brown... but I really like the way he portrayed Jon and would change him for no one in the world ^_^ Imagine if they had cast a super good-looking model who had mixed Targ-Stark features but that person had been really bad with the acting and all... I can't even imagine that really :bang: Kit all the way :love: Plus, the casting could have been made to deceive people (non-readers) in the series too. Tricking them into thinking there was no relation at all with the Taragaryens.

As for the graphic novel, it's just very interesting what the creators did under GRRM's supervision... they could freely draw and create the characters they way they had imagined them so I love Jon's eyes :D But of course it's not "real" evidence.

As I said above, the way they drew Jon is simply very interesting... he's really the perfect Stark-Targaryen mixture!

From lurking around I get the feeling that Kit isn't looked upon favorably on these boards. I can understand why, book Jon brings to mind a much different looking person. I feel Kit does a wonderful job, though hate the way Jon is written on the show. And personally I think he exudes that "Rhaegar effect" devastatingly well. As best seen during the scene where he's atop the wall with his hair prettily blowing in the wind and a haunted look upon his face :wub: . I feel you Jon Con!

[FrozenFire3]

From lurking around I get the feeling that Kit isn't looked upon favorably on these boards. I can understand why, book Jon brings to mind a much different looking person. I feel Kit does a wonderful job, though hate the way Jon is written on the show. And personally I think he exudes that "Rhaegar effect" devastatingly well. As best seen during the scene where he's atop the wall with his hair prettily blowing in the wind and a haunted look upon his face :wub: . I feel you Jon Con!

This post is really great!! :cheers:

As I said, that's not the way I imagine Jon in the books... the comic book brought to life that image much better in my opinion. He has no Targaryen features, as in elegant and "elvish" (I like this adjective for Jon xD). Kit is a bit chubby if you know what I mean... at best he might look like a "scruffy" Stark with darker colours... and the character in the series can be annoying sometimes. Book Jon all the way!! But I agree with you, Kit managed to overcome the not-so-exceptional writing and portray a melanchonic-like Jon (just like his father). There's something in his eyes, a frailty... just like in that scene you were mentioning which is the one I chose for my avatar :D In that moment I could really see Rhaegar in his eyes for some reason. "My sweet, silver prince...!" Hahah

[rmholt]

Umm, you seemed to be arguing that it didn't matter whether he was legitimate or not?

But it surely does for the KG presence.

That is correct, that is what i am arguing. I'll have to review the D & E stories but werent there two classes of bastards in the Targaryen family tree? and if the family is trying to die off, certain niceties may be overlooked to name John the heir. Or Rhaegar has his own reasons to protect Lyanna and the baby. One might be to protect Lyanna mainly so in case he survived the Trident she would be safe there.

[Sapphire]

dragontamer, you raise good questions. I took Rickard's inaction at his daughter's disappearance to mean war was avoidable and figured the rest would be filled in later on. I'm thinking Rickard saw an opportunity when Rhaegar took interest in Lyanna and "stole" her, but Brandon beat him to the punch and the situation went sour before he could make a move to advance his southron ambitions.

The evidence for R+L=J is too overwhelming for it to lead nowhere. I think Wylla, Ashara and the fisherman's daughter are the red herrings.

This post is really great!! :cheers:

As I said, that's not the way I imagine Jon in the books... the comic book brought to life that image much better in my opinion. He has no Targaryen features, as in elegant and "elvish" (I like this adjective for Jon xD). Kit is a bit chubby if you know what I mean... at best he might look like a "scruffy" Stark with darker colours... and the character in the series can be annoying sometimes. Book Jon all the way!! But I agree with you, Kit managed to overcome the not-so-exceptional writing and portray a melanchonic-like Jon (just like his father). There's something in his eyes, a frailty... just like in that scene you were mentioning which is the one I chose for my avatar :D In that moment I could really see Rhaegar in his eyes for some reason. "My sweet, silver prince...!" Hahah

He's not chubby :P , just has a broader face than a Stark is supposed to have. Kit's face looks leaner out of costume, and yes, he's got the melancholy thing down perfectly.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

During a re-read of Ned's dream in which he recalls the confrontation at the ToJ I found a very interesting quote:

"It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory"

If Rhaegar had named it toj then it wasn't properly ToJ. Also:

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterwards, and used it's bloody stones to build eight cairnes upon the ridge."

This thing couldn't have been that big. I mean, he could have hooked up the horses to pull it down but damn that's a lot of work. Of course he had HR to help him but still....

And he didn't bury Lyanna there as the 8 cairnes would be for 3 KG and his 5 fallen companions. Toting around a dead person, presumably a newborn, and an historic greatsword. Ned surely had his hands full.

Where is this "round tower" with "the red mountains of Dorne" in the background and what was it called originally?

I could envision a future chapter where someone comes across a jumble of stones and 8 smaller piles. There could possibly be some clues still hidden among the rubble.

Also, wouldn't anybody want to claim the other bodies there? There were some important people Ned buried:

Dayne, Whent, Hightower, Cassel, Wull, Glover, Ryswell, and Dustin to be precise

[NedStark'sHonour]

That's just it, I don't think the exact quote refers to Targaryen heirs. That's why I asked NedStark'sHonour to provide the full quote.

He specifically said two Targaryen heirs.

However, having played on a bit, I just discovered that he was referring to another made-up character, who clearly isn't and won't be in the books. :rolleyes:

Oh well. Thought it might have been a little easter egg.

I'm assuming then that whilst GRRM plans to reference some characters from the game, the story itself is irrelevant to the books.

[NedStark'sHonour]

Ask yourself: why would three kingsguard be protecting Rhaegar's mistress and bastard son, while the 'apparent' heir, Viserys is left unprotected by any kingsguard.

And remind yourself: Targaryens have several precedents for engaging in bigamy.

Would Aegon not have been the heir? Or was his alleged death before the scenes at the ToJ? I can't really remember the timescale of it all.

I think I rushed through the books a bit quickly really, didn't take in as much as I should have and missed the finer detail. But that's what makes this place so interesting, reading all the theories I missed. As it is I recently started re-reading the series so will pay more attention this time round.

[valyrian_steel]

Would Aegon not have been the heir? Or was his alleged death before the scenes at the ToJ? I can't really remember the timescale of it all.

I think I rushed through the books a bit quickly really, didn't take in as much as I should have and missed the finer detail. But that's what makes this place so interesting, reading all the theories I missed. As it is I recently started re-reading the series so will pay more attention this time round.

Ned went to ToJ after leaving KL. Aegon was already dead.

It interesting to think back the instances where Ned quarreled with Robert over the need to kill Dany. It's very easy to plug Jon's name in in place of Dany's an understand his fervor.

[SteelAndSnow]

Would Aegon not have been the heir? Or was his alleged death before the scenes at the ToJ? I can't really remember the timescale of it all.

I think I rushed through the books a bit quickly really, didn't take in as much as I should have and missed the finer detail. But that's what makes this place so interesting, reading all the theories I missed. As it is I recently started re-reading the series so will pay more attention this time round.

No, Aegon was dead by the time Ned got the ToJ. He asks the KG why they weren't at KL and they know about the sack of the city.

[valyrian_steel]

It's not hard to see how the rebellion started and I do agree the seeds were planted before the Lyanna incident. When a King kills the small folk the lords go foe for the small folk. When the lords realize they r just as likely to be killed, they have the power to act. What changed with the death of Rickard and Brandon and the possible abduction of Lyanna was likely the successor. Before that Aerys II might have been pulled down because he was mad simply to be replaced by Rhaegar. Once it became the rebels against House Targaryan instead of against Aerys II, Rhaegar found himself in the position of having to support his father to save the dynasty.

[John W]

Does anyone know how the whole R=L=J got started?

Who was the person who first came up with the theory?

Because it's not like it's really obvious in the books.

[rmholt]

During a re-read of Ned's dream in which he recalls the confrontation at the ToJ I found a very interesting quote:

"It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory"

If Rhaegar had named it toj then it wasn't properly ToJ. Also:

"Ned had pulled the tower down afterwards, and used it's bloody stones to build eight cairnes upon the ridge."

This thing couldn't have been that big. I mean, he could have hooked up the horses to pull it down but damn that's a lot of work. Of course he had HR to help him but still....

And he didn't bury Lyanna there as the 8 cairnes would be for 3 KG and his 5 fallen companions. Toting around a dead person, presumably a newborn, and an historic greatsword. Ned surely had his hands full.

Where is this "round tower" with "the red mountains of Dorne" in the background and what was it called originally?

I could envision a future chapter where someone comes across a jumble of stones and 8 smaller piles. There could possibly be some clues still hidden among the rubble.

Also, wouldn't anybody want to claim the other bodies there? There were some important people Ned buried:

Dayne, Whent, Hightower, Cassel, Wull, Glover, Ryswell, and Dustin to be precise

Lyanna's bones were taken back to Winterfell IIRC.

Lady Dustin was not happy that Lord Dustin's bones were left at T o J

If he "had the tower pulled down" there is no telling how he did that. He didnt necessarily have it done right then. He didnt do it himself. Perhaps people from his army or people from Starfall were useful. A man wouldnt go south to war without an army. The battle with the KG may have been related to the single combat idea or some of the mechanisms of justice outlined in the Dunk and Egg books, or the army may have been encamped elsewhere.

[Dragonfish]

During a re-read of Ned's dream in which he recalls the confrontation at the ToJ I found a very interesting quote:

"It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory"

If Rhaegar had named it toj then it wasn't properly ToJ.

[...]

Where is this "round tower" with "the red mountains of Dorne" in the background and what was it called originally?

The ToJ's location is given in the map contained in ADWD, though I hear that some copies don't have it. It's in the Prince's Pass, a bit north of Kingsgrave. Incidentally, it is literally referred as the "Tower of Joy", so I think that really is its proper name.

[Lady Octarina]

Does anyone know how the whole R=L=J got started?

Who was the person who first came up with the theory?

Because it's not like it's really obvious in the books.

R+L=J is the kind of theory that you can't trace to an original creator.It's not that impossible to arrive at this theory from AGoT alone, through different clues and paths; I know I did: it always seemed a strange story that someone like Eddard would have a bastard, and some little actions on his part were clues to me that there was something more to it (the first clue would be the way he seems to have looked at Jon in Bran's first chapter, when he asks if he doesn't want a direwolf and the boy answers he's not a Stark). And then we have Eddard's last chapter, too full of thoughts on Lyanna and Harrenhall and this heavy blame. I've always been fond of deciphering random mysteries in every book I read (even when there is none, I must say), so, from my habits and what I had observed of Eddard I just thought: wouldn't it be cool if Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark and that Targaryen who kidnapped her? Next thing I know I become a defender of this theory and find out it actually has a name in this fandom. And here I am.

I only joined the fandom last year, but I would risk saying that since AGoT was released there are people that arrived at this theory and discussed it. It only became easier with the internet and everything.

[JonTargaryenW/Viserion4WIN]

The ToJ's location is given in the map contained in ADWD, though I hear that some copies don't have it. It's in the Prince's Pass, a bit north of Kingsgrave. Incidentally, it is literally referred as the "Tower of Joy", so I think that really is its proper name.

Thanks Dragonfish. On my digital copy it's hard to make out each location. Still not convinced if ToJ was always called that but seeing as it was a major locale in the recent past I'll accept that it is the official name now.

Still holding out for a revisit to the site, maybe by Darkstar (I'm apparently one of the few DS fans) or one of the sand snakes, or even Sam the Slayer. Only ppl in the region with much mobility right now

[Thendel]

Lyanna's bones were taken back to Winterfell IIRC.

Lady Dustin was not happy that Lord Dustin's bones were left at T o J

If he "had the tower pulled down" there is no telling how he did that. He didnt necessarily have it done right then. He didnt do it himself. Perhaps people from his army or people from Starfall were useful. A man wouldnt go south to war without an army. The battle with the KG may have been related to the single combat idea or some of the mechanisms of justice outlined in the Dunk and Egg books, or the army may have been encamped elsewhere.

I believe the reason that Ned only brought six companions with him to the tower was that he needed to reach the tower with haste, and an army would only slow him down. Given that Ned was found by "them", we can assume that Howland Reed left to bring more people, including possibly Wylla, while Ned went inside to see Lyanna.