R+L=J v.29

[FrozenFire3]

Speaking of volcanoes, erupting volcanoes could cause mountains to "blow in the wind like leaves."

Exactly!! :devil:

[Serie]

Speaking of volcanoes, erupting volcanoes could cause mountains to "blow in the wind like leaves."

which would consequently mean that Mirri's prophecy isn't yet fulfilled and Dany didn't suffer of a miscarriage in the end of ADWD....

and I apologize for being out of topic

[Thor Odinson]

I believe Benjen will be the key to the truth of Jon's parentage, if it is to come from a person.

We were never told why he joined the watch...

We are never told his fate...

And he definitely knows SOMETHING...

Completely agreed. Whatever the truth of Jon's parentage is, even if Ned is the father, somebody who knows the truth has to be able to come and tell it to Jon, and Benjen seems the likely candidate to do it. That reason, among others, is why I think Martin wrote Benjen out so quickly. With Ned executed he couldn't have someone who knew the truth hanging around and say "Hey Jon, by the way, here's the truth about your birth." Writing Benjen out not only delays Jon learning about the truth, but it also allows him to make use of Benjen in other ways so that when he does return, he'll not only tell Jon the truth but the storyline will be advanced even further through whatever actions he undertook while he was gone (Spying on the Others, meeting the Children of the Forest, etc).

Speaking of volcanoes, erupting volcanoes could cause mountains to "blow in the wind like leaves."

Yeah, the moment I heard that prophecy I knew it would come true, even though she obviously thought it'd never happen. Somehow Khal Drogo's coming back.

[MizasterJ]

Completely agreed. Whatever the truth of Jon's parentage is, even if Ned is the father, somebody who knows the truth has to be able to come and tell it to Jon, and Benjen seems the likely candidate to do it. That reason, among others, is why I think Martin wrote Benjen out so quickly. With Ned executed he couldn't have someone who knew the truth hanging around and say "Hey Jon, by the way, here's the truth about your birth." Writing Benjen out not only delays Jon learning about the truth, but it also allows him to make use of Benjen in other ways so that when he does return, he'll not only tell Jon the truth but the storyline will be advanced even further through whatever actions he undertook while he was gone (Spying on the Others, meeting the Children of the Forest, etc).

Exactly. what does every1 else think?

[rmholt]

This is the issue I have with using real world examples when discussing ASOIAF. It is usually a rule of mine to ignore these examples, but I love geology, so I figured this one would be worth it.

I understand that they would be trading with people who had obsidian, but who? I doubt they would trade with anyone in Essos.

Why not? They traded with anyone who toodled up with a ship. Doesnt mean they did, but they could

ETA: The issue is that you are using blanket statements in relation to volcanoes, plate tectonics, magma, and earthquakes. It is A LOT more complicated than that. This is not a geology class, so I'm more than willing to stop this discussion.

You are just factually in error, sorry. The tectonic plate stretching causes the magma. (not nec to have a boundary) Magma does not come from the mantle. I gave you a reference for the magma and tectonic plate stretching and there is even a refutation of the mantle claim. When did you get your degree, in the Age of Heroes? BC things have changed

[rmholt]

The Kingsguard arguing back and forth.

Someone sent me a link to instruct me on the composition of the Others; swords.

It also contained something definitive about the T o J and the KG presence there, if I am interpreting correctly, if Rhaegar ordered 3 of the KG to the T o J he didnt have to have any specific reason. He could send them to guard Lyanna, to guard Jon the bastard, to guard Jon the heir, or to eat rocks and stare at the sun. He would have given the orders to protect Viserys and Rhaella - clearly he didnt. Perhaps he felt Willem Darry could handle it (which he did).

This clip resolves a lot of the back and forth regarding where the KG was and when and why. The key is, the king gives them their orders. If they do anything besides protecting the king, it is strictly on his orders

http://web.archive.org/web/20051103091500/nrctc.edu/fhq/vol1iss3/00103009.htm

Marie

[rmholt]

Exactly. what does every1 else think?

Completely agreed. Whatever the truth of Jon's parentage is, even if Ned is the father, somebody who knows the truth has to be able to come and tell it to Jon, and Benjen seems the likely candidate to do it.

I think it's a stretch. First of all you have bootstrapped and taken R + L = J as fact. Second someone could have written it all down. Third, someone else could tell him. Fourth, he may never find out directly. Or indirectly. Not that it isnt possible.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Why not? They traded with anyone who toodled up with a ship. Doesnt mean they did, but they could

It's my opinion. Based on what I know about them I don't feel they would have traded with anyone. I'm entitled to my own opinion.

You are just factually in error, sorry. The tectonic plate stretching causes the magma. (not nec to have a boundary) Magma does not come from the mantle. I gave you a reference for the magma and tectonic plate stretching and there is even a refutation of the mantle claim. When did you get your degree, in the Age of Heroes? BC things have changed

I won't compromise my standing as a lady by stooping to your level and insulting you, so you can believe whatever you wish. Also, your 'reference' supports my position. There was no reason to be rude when I was never rude to you.

Using this real-world example it would be logical to assume that Winterfell could receive its warmth from underground magma related to volcanic activity.

I think it's a stretch. First of all you have bootstrapped and taken R + L = J as fact. Second someone could have written it all down. Third, someone else could tell him. Fourth, he may never find out directly. Or indirectly. Not that it isnt possible.

The reasoning behind my statement that Thor Odinson agreed with was based on accepting R+L=J as fact, for the sake of argument. Benjen telling Jon the truth is no more a strech than someone writing it down, someone else telling him, or him never finding out.

[King Doug]

Umm, you seemed to be arguing that it didn't matter whether he was legitimate or not?

But it surely does for the KG presence.

I'm a little late chiming in on the legitimacy of Jon Snow, but here's my two cents.

The 3 KG being at the ToJ is definitive evidence for Jon's Legitimacy, absolutely. It could be construed that Dayne was there because he was Rhaegar's buddy. We also have reason to believe that Whent was friends with Rhaegar, or Rhaegar at least trusted him. The convincing argument for me was that Lord Commander Hightower was there. The only accounts of him we have are of his loyalty adherence to the KG's rules. When Cat is questioning Jaime in the dungeons of Riverrun, Jaime reflects on Hightower's loyalty after he tells Cat the story of Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths. Jaime was disgusted by this and Hightower pulled him aside and reminded Jaime that the KG does not judge the king.

That proves Hightower's honor and commitment to his duty. His presence at the ToJ is the same, he is their fulfilling his duty,.

[Lady Octarina]

Completely agreed. Whatever the truth of Jon's parentage is, even if Ned is the father, somebody who knows the truth has to be able to come and tell it to Jon, and Benjen seems the likely candidate to do it. That reason, among others, is why I think Martin wrote Benjen out so quickly. With Ned executed he couldn't have someone who knew the truth hanging around and say "Hey Jon, by the way, here's the truth about your birth." Writing Benjen out not only delays Jon learning about the truth, but it also allows him to make use of Benjen in other ways so that when he does return, he'll not only tell Jon the truth but the storyline will be advanced even further through whatever actions he undertook while he was gone (Spying on the Others, meeting the Children of the Forest, etc).

I agree with you. I don't know how long you've been reading these threads, but five (?) versions ago we were discussing how convenient it is that anybody around Jon that could figure out the truth about him, or who already knew, and could tell him something in that direction, simply is in no condition of doing so for an external factor: Benjen is missing; Aemon, who could possibly recognize Targaryen traits he might have, is blind; Jaime, who actually knew Rhaegar, barely pays any attention to Eddard Stark's bastard. Different people that could tell him the truth or give him a clue about his parentage in AGoT, and yet none of them are able to; story-wise, simply because he isn't ready to find out.

Btw, lovely avatar and username :drool:

[FrozenFire3]

I agree with you. I don't know how long you've been reading these threads, but five (?) versions ago we were discussing how convenient it is that anybody around Jon that could figure out the truth about him, or who already knew, and could tell him something in that direction, simply is in no condition of doing so for an external factor: Benjen is missing; Aemon, who could possibly recognize Targaryen traits he might have, is blind; Jaime, who actually knew Rhaegar, barely pays any attention to Eddard Stark's bastard. Different people that could tell him the truth or give him a clue about his parentage in AGoT, and yet none of them are able to; story-wise, simply because he isn't ready to find out.

Btw, lovely avatar and username :drool:

Indeed! Jon is quite unlucky... he is sorrounded by people who know/could know but somehow either they die, or disappear, or are blind. Benjen and Howland Reed are his only possibilities I guess, unless Bran will see something sooner or later and tell him.

Oh and I agree with Lady Octarina :D Thor Odinson, I love your username and avatar! :wub:

[Thor Odinson]

I think it's a stretch. First of all you have bootstrapped and taken R + L = J as fact. Second someone could have written it all down. Third, someone else could tell him. Fourth, he may never find out directly. Or indirectly. Not that it isnt possible.

1) Not at all. There IS a mystery surrounding Jon's birth no matter which way you look at it. As I said in my original post, "even if Ned is the father" there's still the question of who Jon's mother is and why Ned would dishonor himself to father a bastard. That's a question which needs to be answered, and Benjen Stark is a likely candidate to hold the answer. No bootstrapping is required, because whether it's through Ned or Lyanna that Jon gets his Stark blood from, there's STILL a mystery surrounding the circumstances of his birth.

2) If Ned Stark wouldn't even talk about Jon's parentage to Robert Baratheon and ordered his wife to never speak on the subject again, why would he have it written down? Why would anyone who knew it write it down if it were that serious? Nevermind that having Jon stumble on a random book or notepad with the truth would be incredibly anticlimatic. "Jon pulls out Eddard's daily planner and reads what Lord Stark wrote on the date of his birth. 'Killed three Kingsguard. Found Lyanna dead. Took her baby with me and claimed he was my bastard.'". Whatever the truth is, it'd have a much more dramatic impact if it came from the mouth of another character rather than being read off a ledger.

3) Certainly, but Benjen Stark is a relative and someone whose word means something to Jon, so who better?

4) Writing 101. You don't introduce mysteries and harp on them unless you intend for them to pay off down the road (or unless you're a staff writer for Lost, in which case you don't have to concern yourself with explaining mysteries). Jon absolutely must find out, otherwise all those pages spent from Jon's point of view wondering who his mother was is wasted space.

[dragontamer]

I was thinking that it's extremely convenient that Jon grew up to resemble his mother so much, and Ned as a matter of fact (Cat is frustrated that Jon is more like Ned than her children) and has no obvious Targaryen characteristics. I wonder what Ned would say if Jon grew up to have silver hair and/or purple eyes. He could suggest Jon has taken after his mother of course, but still it would strike as odd, especially to people like Varys or LF and even Robert since they beleived Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and Jon being at the right age. Ned was so lucky, or simply stupid not to think about it or maybe there was never that chance.

[Dr. Pepper]

I was thinking that it's extremely convenient that Jon grew up to resemble his mother so much, and Ned as a matter of fact (Cat is frustrated that Jon is more like Ned than her children) and has no obvious Targaryen characteristics. I wonder what Ned would say if Jon grew up to have silver hair and/or purple eyes. He could suggest Jon has taken after his mother of course, but still it would strike as odd, especially to people like Varys or LF and even Robert since they beleived Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and Jon being at the right age. Ned was so lucky, or simply stupid not to think about it or maybe there was never that chance.

By the time Ned traveled back to Winterfell, obviously Jon was old enough that his eye color had set in and he probably would have already started to grow brown hair. Hair color might change, but eye color doesn't, at least not to any great degree. They certainly wouldn't go from grey to purple. If Jon had purple eyes when he arrived back North, he could have simply said that he fathered him on a whore from Lys at some brothel in some city he was near 9 months before Jon was born. The fact that Jon turned out to have grey eyes and dark hair made it unnecessary to spread that lie. There were also stories circulating that he fathered Jon on Ashara -who had purple eyes and had at least one sibling with silver hair - so that would have explained to others why Jon might have silver hair or purple eyes. It was lucky that Jon came out looking so much like Ned, but I have no worries that Ned wouldn't have come up with a suitable cover story. Purple eyes and silver hair aren't all that uncommon, especially in Essos and we know that Essosi whores often seek work in Westeros.

[dragontamer]

By the time Ned traveled back to Winterfell, obviously Jon was old enough that his eye color had set in and he probably would have already started to grow brown hair. Hair color might change, but eye color doesn't, at least not to any great degree. They certainly wouldn't go from grey to purple. If Jon had purple eyes when he arrived back North, he could have simply said that he fathered him on a whore from Lys at some brothel in some city he was near 9 months before Jon was born. The fact that Jon turned out to have grey eyes and dark hair made it unnecessary to spread that lie. There were also stories circulating that he fathered Jon on Ashara -who had purple eyes and had at least one sibling with silver hair - so that would have explained to others why Jon might have silver hair or purple eyes. It was lucky that Jon came out looking so much like Ned, but I have no worries that Ned wouldn't have come up with a suitable cover story. Purple eyes and silver hair aren't all that uncommon, especially in Essos and we know that Essosi whores often seek work in Westeros.

You are right of course, I just stated that to some it would be weird, especially when considering Ned's character. Also he could use that lie anyway and spare himself and Jon all the drama and the gossip. But he didn't and imo it's strange.

[The guy from the Vale]

I was thinking that it's extremely convenient that Jon grew up to resemble his mother so much, and Ned as a matter of fact (Cat is frustrated that Jon is more like Ned than her children) and has no obvious Targaryen characteristics. I wonder what Ned would say if Jon grew up to have silver hair and/or purple eyes. He could suggest Jon has taken after his mother of course, but still it would strike as odd, especially to people like Varys or LF and even Robert since they beleived Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and Jon being at the right age. Ned was so lucky, or simply stupid not to think about it or maybe there was never that chance.

That's why it is so convenient for Ned to have the Ashara rumours floating around. The Daynes are well-known for their silver hair and purple eyes, so if Jon had developed these traits, the suspicion would have focused on her, not on Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Still, I agree hiding Jons parentage would have been much harder in that case. But, luckily for Ned, that simply wasn't necessary.

ETA: seems to be my slow day today...

[FrozenFire3]

1) Not at all. There IS a mystery surrounding Jon's birth no matter which way you look at it. As I said in my original post, "even if Ned is the father" there's still the question of who Jon's mother is and why Ned would dishonor himself to father a bastard. That's a question which needs to be answered, and Benjen Stark is a likely candidate to hold the answer. No bootstrapping is required, because whether it's through Ned or Lyanna that Jon gets his Stark blood from, there's STILL a mystery surrounding the circumstances of his birth.

2) If Ned Stark wouldn't even talk about Jon's parentage to Robert Baratheon and ordered his wife to never speak on the subject again, why would he have it written down? Why would anyone who knew it write it down if it were that serious? Nevermind that having Jon stumble on a random book or notepad with the truth would be incredibly anticlimatic. "Jon pulls out Eddard's daily planner and reads what Lord Stark wrote on the date of his birth. 'Killed three Kingsguard. Found Lyanna dead. Took her baby with me and claimed he was my bastard.'". Whatever the truth is, it'd have a much more dramatic impact if it came from the mouth of another character rather than being read off a ledger.

3) Certainly, but Benjen Stark is a relative and someone whose word means something to Jon, so who better?

4) Writing 101. You don't introduce mysteries and harp on them unless you intend for them to pay off down the road (or unless you're a staff writer for Lost, in which case you don't have to concern yourself with explaining mysteries). Jon absolutely must find out, otherwise all those pages spent from Jon's point of view wondering who his mother was is wasted space.

This post is absolutely brilliant! ;)

No one would have written down such a thing. Neither Ned nor any other who might have known... it would have been irresponisble on their part because someone could have randomly stumbled upon it and learnt of Jon's true parentage. And secondly it would obviosuly be totally anti-climatic. If Benjen or Howland or Bran tell Jon, it's going to be much more dramatic for him and for readers. GRRM has been bulding up this suspense over one of the biggest mysteries in the series for years and when he will finally reveal all, it will be in a poetic, magical, surprising way I think...

And anyway why would he hint to people, names, things concerning Jon's true parentage for 5 books if he didn't want to finally tell us the truth? (Unless of course he's been secretly screenplaying LOST hahah :P )

[LadyMary]

That's why it is so convenient for Ned to have the Ashara rumours floating around. The Daynes are well-known for their silver hair and purple eyes, so if Jon had developed these traits, the suspicion would have focused on her, not on Lyanna and Rhaegar.

Still, I agree hiding Jons parentage would have been much harder in that case. But, luckily for Ned, that simply wasn't necessary.

ETA: seems to be my slow day today...

Purple eyes, yes, but where did it say the Daynes had silver hair?

Anyway, if Jon had exhibited Targaryen coloring, Ned could have claimed Jon's mother was a Lyseni woman as they frequently exhibit the Valyrian coloring, but as you say, fortunately Stark features are more dominant than pure-blooded Valyrian ones and gave Ned cover.

As for Benjen, I can't help wondering if part of the reason he went off to the Nights Watch was that he wanted to atone for something - perhaps helping or covering for Lyanna when she ran off with Rhaegar. The result of that was tragic for the Starks. If Benjen knows Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, he must have promised to keep the secret, but if he's alive and encounters Jon in some form, maybe he can reveal the truth.

That being said, didn't GRRM say that Howland Reed - the man who knows too much - will be the one to disclose the truth about Jon's parentage?

[rmholt]

1) Not at all. There IS a mystery surrounding Jon's birth no matter which way you look at it.

2) If Ned Stark wouldn't even talk about Jon's parentage to Robert Baratheon and ordered his wife to never speak on the subject again, why would he have it written down?

3) Certainly, but Benjen Stark is a relative and someone whose word means something to Jon, so who better?

4) Writing 101. You don't introduce mysteries and harp on them unless you intend for them to pay off down the road (or unless you're a staff writer for Lost, in which case you don't have to concern yourself with explaining mysteries). Jon absolutely must find out, otherwise all those pages spent from Jon's point of view wondering who his mother was is wasted space.

Someone asked what ppl thought. I recall Lost being a big hit. GRRM builds up a lot of things, theories, events, and people only to whack them. It is HOW he does it that works so well. Several examples come to mind. In fact it is huge things gone awry that make up most of the book. Jon is a huge major character and we expect there is something significant about him and GRRM has left enough hints in RL and it fits facts so well that R+L is probably true. He doesnt actually need to know it to fulfill his destiny. It would be cruel not to tell US however. I see Tyrion having a HUGE part to play for the similar reasons. We are also instructed multiple times that Ned fathering a bastard is not a huge deal as he was not betrothed at the time and it supposedly happened at a big tournament. He feels ashamed over something else. You cant have it both ways. Jon's origins have been kept a mystery and he is a major character so it is more significant that unknown origins in other characters.

ITYM you dont bring a cannon on the stage and not fire it. GRRM is way past Writing 101 however so he could test that rule in an unexpected way.

The battle at the Wall was a lot of pages that fizzled - turns out the battle was a complete waste of energy and resources. However, people behave that way so writing about how it happens works. Also it took me awhile to realize this was true, the telling of the tale was so compelling.

Robert Baratheon is the LAST person he would confide in. There is a lot of stuff written down that people dont know about. For instance, Robert didnt know about the tapestries at Darry. They show Targ history. Maybe it's there. Maybe the Daynes know. Edric certainly had a nice tale confirming the cover story which he probably believes. Maybe the older folks there have kept the secret for Ned.

The note written to Cat by Lysa had quite the dramatic effect. All the Dark Wings Dark Words writings are dramatic.

Benjen is likely going to turn up somewhere, along with Tyrek etc. I am getting annoyed by his name coming up again and again and him still being missing. Maybe he is the guy in the hooded cloak. There is always to be a Stark in Winterfell. That doesnt mean he HAS to be the guy to tell Jon. It just means he is one of the guys that could.

[Lady Octarina]

Purple eyes, yes, but where did it say the Daynes had silver hair?

Edric Dayne is described in ASoS to have pale blond hair (close to silver, then), and somewhere it is stated that Arthur Dayne had silver hair (probably either in one of Eddard's chapters, or Jaime's, or Barristan's). Or was it that someone mentioned the Daynes had Targaryen coloring?