YouKnowNothing. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What I want to know is what were the TRUE intentions for the Freys deserting the Starks/Tullys. Obviously people think Tywins promise of forgiveness and the whole Robb broke his word ect. But surely they new it would hugely harm their reputation. Plus the Twins are hard to take so I don't see how they could have feeled threatened. I wonder if the majority of Freys were just "following orders". I still think there's a lot unsaid about the Red Wedding situation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipan Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What I want to know is what were the TRUE intentions for the Freys deserting the Starks/Tullys. Obviously people think Tywins promise of forgiveness and the whole Robb broke his word ect. But surely they new it would hugely harm their reputation. Plus the Twins are hard to take so I don't see how they could have feeled threatened. I wonder if the majority of Freys were just "following orders". I still think there's a lot unsaid about the Red Wedding situationCare to explain exactly what reputation the Freys had before the RW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBean Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 What I want to know is what were the TRUE intentions for the Freys deserting the Starks/Tullys. Obviously people think Tywins promise of forgiveness and the whole Robb broke his word ect. But surely they new it would hugely harm their reputation. Plus the Twins are hard to take so I don't see how they could have feeled threatened. I wonder if the majority of Freys were just "following orders". I still think there's a lot unsaid about the Red Wedding situationI think GRRM said that Walder Frey was afraid they (Robb's side) were losing the war, and was already looking for a way to jump ship. Then Robb went and married Jeyne, sowing the seeds for the Red Wedding in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouKnowNothing. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well apart from Walder Frey and a few wild offspring they weren't a hated house, just unloved. I'm starting to think whether being Labeled Late lord frey pissed him off so much he just wanted to proove himself to whoever was winning ie Roberts rebellion - let Robb's army through at the beggining of the war - the red wedding - maybe their alligance could change again in the future ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lord's Kiss Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Really? How did Joff die again?Ha, good point, but that was Joffrey Waters, and if there's anyone who deserves to have the laws of hospitality broken for, it's him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taipan Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Well apart from Walder Frey and a few wild offspring they weren't a hated house, just unloved. I'm starting to think whether being Labeled Late lord frey pissed him off so much he just wanted to proove himself to whoever was winning ie Roberts rebellion - let Robb's army through at the beggining of the war - the red wedding - maybe their alligance could change again in the future ...Leopards, spots etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opkio Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 coward.. I think Lord Tywin is a coward. He wins battles by treachery and not in the field. Its not the first time e uses treachery to win, remember the Targaryens anyone? He deserved his end and now his house will pay for all his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Is Overdue Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 For Tywin it was a genius plan. He was already known for being cold and shrewed but also the one of the realms best politicians and commanders and he also was the head of the most powerful family in westeros. However it was cowardly and also stupid by The boltons and Freys. Robb had not lost a battle and there was no telling when he would, it wasn't like before the red wedding the starks were being crushed in the war. Also neither of those houses is nearly as powerful as the Lannisters to they made a lot of enemies like the Manderleys and the dustyns to name two. When Stannis finally reaches Winterfell The Manderlys are just waiting to attack the Boltons and Freys that are there mainly because of the red weddingThis. It may have been a genius move in the short term, but the North has a long memory and it will come back to bite them in the ass. I have to wonder how many Lannisters, Freys, & Boltons will be left standing at the end of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 It not only killed the leader of the rebellion, it limited the chances of secession by kidnapping prominent loyalists and using them as hostages, and placed a weaker house that needed the Lannisters in the North, while keeping a back-up plan (Sansa). Genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just a scared old man cutting his losses, but he got his. And its ok becaus everyone that participated will die screaming, Every single Frey, Lannister, and Bolton will die. And I do mean every even the kids, All of them as well as the frey bannermen. The north remembers and winter has well and truly arrived. It will be glorious, they will be sacrificed to the old gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 It is far too soon to call it genius. Theon's taking of Winterfell seemed like "genius" right up until the consequences kicked in.Tywin did not keep his hands clean with this. Sure the primary hatred is toward the Freys and slightly behind them the Boltons but Tywin's involvement is clear as day. Roose went from commander of half Robb's army fighting against Tywin to Tywin's pick for Lord Paramount of the North with Roose's son being legitimized by the Lannisters and awarded Winterfell by the Lannisters along with "Arya" as a bride who must have been a Lannister hostage. All this while a Lannister is married to Sansa who has the best known claim to Winterfell. Even Patchface can put that puzzle together.Consider this passage:Ser Harys shuffled through some papers. “The next matter... we have had a letter from Lord Frey putting forth some claims...”“How many lands and honors does that man want?” snapped the queen. “His mother must have had three teats.”“My lords may not know,” said Qyburn, “but in the winesinks and pot shops of this city, there are those who suggest that the crown might have been somehow complicit in Lord Walder’s crime.”The other councillors stared at him uncertainly. “Do you refer to the Red Wedding?” asked Aurane Waters. “Crime?” said Ser Harys. Pycelle cleared his throat noisily. Lord Gyles coughed.“These sparrows are especially outspoken,” warned Qyburn. “The Red Wedding was an affront to all the laws of gods and men, they say, and those who had a hand in it are damned.”Cersei was not slow to take his meaning. “Lord Walder must soon face the Father’s judgment. He is very old. Let the sparrows spit upon his memory. It has nought to do with us.”“No,” said Ser Harys. “No,” said Lord Merryweather. “No one could think so,” said Pycelle. Lord Gyles coughed. So when Qyburn calls it a "crime" the others are so taken back they aren't even sure what he's talking about. So we're dealing with just an extraordinary offense here and one that is attributed to Tywin and his family. It is perfectly clear even the smallfolk know it was a Lannister plot and the council's agreement with Cersei is some pretty obvious yessing the clueless regent.It isn't like the North was the only threat and the RW ended all resistance. Stannis was still a threat, the Iron Islands were still a threat, and the Lannisters still faced a Tyrell and Martell threat within their alliance. They also needed to keep the Riverlands subdued and keep the Vale out of the fighting and compliant. Based on the intel available as of the RW they should have been aware of Dany and thus been prepared to some degree for Aegon since he's a Targ from the east threat just like Dany.So if the Lannisters prevail over all, yes the RW was genius. If they fail and the fallout from the RW has zero impact on their failure to defeat Stannis, the North, Aegon, Dany, Euron, the Vale, the Riverlands, the Tyrells and Dorne then a case can be made that it was still genius.It is hard to imagine an outcome where the RW fallout doesn't bite the Lannisters in the ass based on the current dynamic. So it is probably only a Theon Takes Winterfell kind of genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I would have been a good move it the north were the only opponent. shame it isn't. Stannis was alive when this happened and had asha come out of top of the kings mootTywin would have in in direst troublethe answer is a yes and No. the trick is knowing the enemy who doesn't play fairActually, it eliminated one of his opponents-always a good thing. Now he would be fighting less battles, and Stannis is the north's problem at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John W Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Since all's fair in love and war, I'd say genius move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 It's not Tywin's fault that one particular idiot made the Faith a political player again in one stroke.inb4 "He should have predicted it!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouKnowNothing. Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Arguably Ramsey/Roose Boltons ploy is the greatest of them all ... The re-re taking of Winterfell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 It is far too soon to call it genius. Theon's taking of Winterfell seemed like "genius" right up until the consequences kicked in.Theon's plan depended on people he couldn't control acting in a way that was beneficial to him. If he had burnt Winterfell and dragged the two boys back to Pyke it would have been genius.Tywin had the men in the equation well in hand it seemed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 He really should have predicted cercei rearming the faith... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 He really should have predicted cercei rearming the faith...Is this a joke or are you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Theon's plan depended on people he couldn't control acting in a way that was beneficial to him. If he had burnt Winterfell and dragged the two boys back to Pyke it would have been genius.Tywin had the men in the equation well in hand it seemed.The analogy was more about the future consequences of a short term beneficial move.Stannis is still in the equation, the Greyjoys are still in the equation as are many other players. Based on the text so far it does not appear the equation will be resolved with the RW fallout variable equalling zero. People don't exploit guest right and haven't since whatever inspired the Rat King because there are consequences. I think the consequences need to play out before it can be accurately assessed as "genius." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 If the argument is that its a Lannister problem, i think Tywin getting killed makes it more genius. The other lannisters are absolved b/c everyone knows it was tywin.I doubt it'd be attributed to Jamie, tyrion or the others (except maybe cersei( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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