Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 If the argument is that its a Lannister problem, i think Tywin getting killed makes it more genius. The other lannisters are absolved b/c everyone knows it was tywin.I doubt it'd be attributed to Jamie, tyrion or the others (except maybe cersei(In fact, that makes it worse. If Tywin can't pay personally, his family will have to suffice. And don't forget "Jaime Lannister sends his regards". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 Actually, it eliminated one of his opponents-always a good thing. Now he would be fighting less battles, and Stannis is the north's problem at this point.not by alienating the remants making it easier for stannis to gather support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 not by alienating the remants making it easier for stannis to gather supportI'm pretty sure Stannis had a lot of trouble gaining allies precisely because the Lannisters held hostages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the Scorpion Knight Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I'm pretty sure Stannis had a lot of trouble gaining allies precisely because the Lannisters held hostages.the freys hold the hostages of importance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooManyFreys Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 the freys hold the hostages of importanceand now they've been ordered to release them...I for one am anxious to see what happened to the Greatjon this whole time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 and now they've been ordered to release them...I for one am anxious to see what happened to the Greatjon this whole timeI think the Frey ordered to release them was introduced to a tree by unCat on his way home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 the freys hold the hostages of importanceFair enough. But the difference seems academic, the Freys need the Lannisters, their fortunes are tied to theirs, if Tywin had told them to jump they would have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooManyFreys Posted July 9, 2012 Share Posted July 9, 2012 I think the Frey ordered to release them was introduced to a tree by unCat on his way home.Glad to see she can still screw things up after she died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 not by alienating the remants making it easier for stannis to gather supportThey werent going to end up with the north on their side either way. Better to tie them up and shore up your position holding the twins and the riverlands.The north has pretty much no fighting ships and it would be nearly impossible for them to march south without the freys. . Winter's here and stannis is stuck up north with no fleet. Plus tywin would believe that he had the Vale locked up with LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 In fact, that makes it worse. If Tywin can't pay personally, his family will have to suffice. And don't forget "Jaime Lannister sends his regards".Who heard that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnorak Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Who heard that?unCat for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Is this a joke or are you serious?I am dead serious :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julian Rayne Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 We haven't seen the last of the fallout yet. There's good evidence of a second Red Wedding being planned at Riverrun. If that theory is correct, the Freys aren't the only family that's going to be taking casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bourne Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Tywin didn't care one bit for the smallfolk. Have you forgotten that he raided the Riverlands and broke the King's Peace, just because Tyrion got kidnapped? In other words, he set the Mountain on a group of innocent unprotected civilians just because of his pride. Tywin is not some sort of champion for the little people, if that's what you think he is. It was just his "excuse" for going through with the Red Wedding in the first place.I don't thing he gives a damn about the riverlands people. They are part of a country in revolt. His enemies. But he does care about the Westerlands, and by extension the people of the Westerlands. Admittedly, I don't think he cares about them as humans so much as workers, but that matters little to them. Regardless of his intentions, they are thankful he protects them.To be frank, I don't think Tywin gives a damn about honor at all. The Red Wedding is the easiest way for him to eliminate the Starks, so he does it. But he does think it's stupid for people to call it dishonorable when it saved thousands of lives. And he has a point.Despising Lannisters, alright. But baking Freys in pies and serving them to their kin? And make no mistake, that's exactly the thing the Northmen will do to the Lannisters given the tiniest sliver of a chance.The Red Wedding turned a neat little war into a bloodfeud on a genocidal level.Dead is dead. I hardly think they care what happens to their bodies after their lives end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 I don't thing he gives a damn about the riverlands people. They are part of a country in revolt. His enemies. But he does care about the Westerlands, and by extension the people of the Westerlands. Admittedly, I don't think he cares about them as humans so much as workers, but that matters little to them. Regardless of his intentions, they are thankful he protects them.To be frank, I don't think Tywin gives a damn about honor at all. The Red Wedding is the easiest way for him to eliminate the Starks, so he does it. But he does think it's stupid for people to call it dishonorable when it saved thousands of lives. And he has a point.In the end him caring or not caring about the Westerlands has proven irrelevant. They haven't suffered major repercussions from his actions (they were raided), while the two lords that cared the most pretty much fucked their lands, especially the riverlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mulled Wino Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 unCat for one.I guess she'll send out some birds.....Uncat certainly isnt going to turn thr realm against the lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peasant with No Story Arc Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 It's not Tywin's fault that one particular idiot made the Faith a political player again in one stroke.inb4 "He should have predicted it!!!"While he may not have been able to predict the concessions Cersei would make wasn't the style of warfare that caused the rise to prominence of the Sparrows initiated by Tywin? Setting men like Gregor Clegane loose on the Riverlands, etc. had a good deal to do with getting the Lannisters and the Tyrells the High Septon they have now, didn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hear Us Roar Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Tywin is no stranger to getting his hands dirty. his reputation is built on him taking people down. This was a simple move for him. Remove the Northern threat with minimal resources and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A brilliant ploy for Tywin. You could even make the utilitarian moral argument that Tywin saved many of his own men's lives and that if he had ridden against Robb that many innocent wives and childrens would be without husband and fathers and that relatively few people died in the Red Wedding compared to the slaughter of an ongoing campaign.But as far as Roose Bolton and Walder Frey were concerned, it was a straight-up scumbag, treacherous move. Their men are continuing being slaughtered, by the way. Innocent wives and children losing losing their husbands and fathers is hilarious. That argument would only hold weight if Tywin were known to be that kind of man, which he clearly is not. I would venture that wives losing husbands and children missing fathers were never considerations when Tywin was coming up with the plan. Clearly, this is right up Tywin's alley. He's one of the best at scheming and plotting. I don't want to debate whether it was cowardly or brilliant. It's a judgement call I think. With those who love to celebrate villains or like to take the contrarian side calling it "genius". While those who prefer heroes or honor calling it a cowardly act. I will say that in the warrior culture of Westeros it's a move that would be considered spineless and meek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khal Pono Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Innocent wives and children losing losing their husbands and fathers is hilarious. That argument would only hold weight if Tywin were known to be that kind of man, which he clearly is not. I would venture that wives losing husbands and children missing fathers were never considerations when Tywin was coming up with the plan. Clearly, this is right up Tywin's alley. He's one of the best at scheming and plotting. I don't want to debate whether it was cowardly or brilliant. It's a judgement call I think. With those who love to celebrate villains or like to take the contrarian side calling it "genius". While those who prefer heroes or honor calling it a cowardly act. I will say that in the warrior culture of Westeros it's a move that would be considered spineless and meek.Tywin cares about the smallfolk inasmuch as it benefits him to care about them. Likewise, when it suits his purpose to torture and kill them he does so.But if he can win a war without inflicting losses on his men, their families and the smallfolk, he will do it every time--not becuase he is a humanitarian, but because he's a very practical man. Sometimes it's not practical to have everyone hate you and suffer from the losses of your war, if it can be avoided.I was talking about the utilitariain morality of Tywin's decision; I was not suggesting that Tywin is a moral person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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