Beauty Means Health, or Why it's Okay to say "No" to Tyrion

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Men pursuing beautiful women, good; women pursuing beautiful men, bad. Poopie. Women who like a pretty face are just doing what comes naturally. An explanation, and I apologize for this long-ass post:

It's safe to say that medicine in Westeros is primitive at best. For example, we can conclude from the number of women who die in child birth that the Caesarean section is unknown. Antiseptics are also unknown. In fact, as far as I remember, there isn't really a cure for anything. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Thus, the best gift a man or a woman can give a child is to make sure the child is born healthy so it is resistant to disease and the ministration of the Maesters. The future parents, as well as the putative grandparents who are making the match, also want the child to be fertile to carry on their dynasty.

So in a society without DNA or blood tests, bone scans, amniocentesis, whatever, how can people tell if a potential mate is healthy and will produce healthy children? That person's looks, that's how.

Scientists who study the science of attraction have determined that symmetry equals health equals beauty. Choosing an attractive mate yields an evolutionary advantage.

Do click on the link, it's full of little gems of information such as:

And symmetrical men smell better.

Borrowing sweaty undershirts from a variety of men, Thornhill offered the shirts to the noses of women, asking for their impressions of the scents. Hands down, the women found the scent of a symmetrical man to be more attractive and desirable, especially if the woman was menstruating.

and

If your spouse is genetically similar [looks like you], you're more likely to have a happy marriage, for example. Child abuse rates are lower when similarity is high, and you'll also be more altruistic and willing to sacrifice more for someone who is more genetically like you, research shows.

Not to mention the fact that tall men are considered more attractive and are more likely to have children.

Tyrion is manifestly not symmetrical or tall. He certainly doesn't resemble any of the beautiful women he desires or the woman he married. His condition is also genetic. People,real and fictional, have always recognized that some conditions are hereditary and, depending on Westeros' unusual genetics, some of Tyrion's children will also be dwarves. Dwarfism has many complications that could very well prove fatal without the application of modern medicine (or the intervention of an author who wants a dwarf hero). If written realistically, a pregnant dwarf girl in Westeros would be under a virtual death sentence because her children would have to be delivered by a Caesarian section that she can't get. In addition, based on what GRRM has told us about Tywin's attempt to arrange a marriage for Tyrion, his dwarf daughter and her dwarf brothers would also be unmarriageable and thus unable to benefit the family with a dowry or sword. Tyrion's problem then would be visited on the next generation. Thus even though Tyrion is wealthy, intelligent and heterosexual* he is not a good choice for a husband and father in a medically backward society.

Women who reject Tyrion in favor of a pretty face are not fools or shallow, as Tyrion, Ser Garland* and many posters think. Their preference for handsome will not disappear as they mature (although they might become resigned to ugly, or resort to asoiaf's cures for unhappy wives -- adultery and murder). That's because women are hot-wired by evolution to seek a healthy and genetically-similar mate, which will also be a good-looking mate. Perhaps their genetic memory tells them that they will be happiest married to a man they resemble.

The articles also indicate that men are more likely to be attracted by looks than women. That's certainly reflected in the books where no man wants a girl for her brains or personality. :P

And c'mon, if real life experience hasn't taught you that attractive people date and marry other attractive people you haven't been getting out enough.

*I think this is why Ser Garland told Tyrion's reluctant bride that he would make a better husband than Loras. Boob. If good looks are needed anywhere, they're needed in the bedroom -- just being willing and able to perform isn't enough.

When I was looking for articles on attraction I stumbled across an article that said that women are more attracted to a longer, thicker penis. Can you imagine writing the grant proposal for that research?

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

I don't think it even needs justifying. Women will prefer attractive men and men will prefer attractive women.

Tyrion is grotesque. Women wont be keen.

[Ser_Patreck]

Are we resorting to Eugenics to justify Tyrion-hate now? Good grief.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Being a relatively tall and symmetrical male, your post makes me feel good. This is all just more bad news for Tyrion, who has lived his entire life under the curse of having "caused" his mother's death through his deformity and now he doesn't even have a nose. Poor guy. I have to think GRRM will either kill him by the end of the series or let him survive as the Lord of Casterly Rock with Tysha and an entire whelp of little Lannister cubs. Since that's what I'm assuming, I'll go ahead and say that you're right, and that even if Tyrion does succeed and take over Westeros with Dany, he will be doomed to die alone and childless on Casterly Rock. Or he'll play Hand for the Mad Queen Daenerys(pleasegodno).

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Women who reject Tyrion in favor of a pretty face are not fools or shallow, as Tyrion, Ser Garland* and many posters think …

*I think this is why Ser Garland told Tyrion's reluctant bride that he would make a better husband than Loras. Boob. If good looks are needed anywhere, they're needed in the bedroom -- just being willing and able to perform isn't enough.

I think Garlan had a different reason altogether for saying that Tyrion would be a better mate for a woman than Loras, but when have people criticized women for not wanting to be with Tyrion? Book Tyrion isn't Peter Dinklage. He was described as hideously ugly before he got a horrible facial scar. I don't read all the threads, but I don't recall the one where anyone says "So what if you're physically repulsed by him? He's funny, and he means well. What's your problem, lady?"

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

Are we resorting to Eugenics to justify Tyrion-hate now? Good grief.

I don't think it's eugenics at all, nor is there a suggestion of it in the OP.

[A song away]

People actually think that women who reject him are shallow? Wonder if they are willing to date a girl with disabilities or who is enormously fat. Don't be shallow now, guys! :cheers:

[Kittykatknits]

<snip>

Great topic and I completely agree with you. Women's desire is worth just as much as a man. It's perfectly valid to not want Tyrion, or anyone you find repulsive for that matter, to father your children. I also don't blame other families for not wanting to marry one of their daughters to Tyrion. I roll my eyes whenever I see arguments that a woman needs to get past his looks and appreciate him for his personality. That argument makes no sense in Westeros. Good article.

I think Garlan had a different reason altogether for saying that Tyrion would be a better mate for a woman than Loras, but when have people criticized women for not wanting to be with Tyrion? Book Tyrion isn't Peter Dinklage. He was described as hideously ugly before he got a horrible facial scar. I don't read all the threads, but I don't recall the one where anyone says "So what if you're physically repulsed by him? He's funny, and he means well. What's your problem, lady?"

Obviously, you haven't read enough of the Mrs. Sansa Lannister or Sansa hate threads. If so, you'd see many who think exactly this. I regularly read posts calling her selfish and shallow, for failing to appreciate his good points. My personal favorite is that ending up with him would do her good as it's exactly what she deserves.

[Kittykatknits]

People actually think that women who reject him are shallow? Wonder if they are willing to date a girl with disabilities or who is enormously fat. Don't be shallow now, guys! :cheers:

Do a search on Mrs. Sansa Lannister threads. The answer to your question is yes.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis.

[Every]

I think Garlan had a different reason altogether for saying that Tyrion would be a better mate for a woman than Loras, but when have people criticized women for not wanting to be with Tyrion? Book Tyrion isn't Peter Dinklage. He was described as hideously ugly before he got a horrible facial scar. I don't read all the threads, but I don't recall the one where anyone says "So what if you're physically repulsed by him? He's funny, and he means well (except for the bit where he murdered his last 'serious' partner and fantasises about raping and killing his sister). What's your problem, lady?"

I don't think anyone needs to resort to looks for a reason to reject Tyrion. He's not Gregor, but he is not a nice guy in many, many ways.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Obviously, you haven't read enough of the Mrs. Sansa Lannister or Sansa hate threads. If so, you'd see many who think exactly this. I regularly read posts calling her selfish and shallow, for failing to appreciate his good points. My personal favorite is that ending up with him would do her good as it's exactly what she deserves.

Doesn't a lot of that have to do with humiliating him at their wedding or abandoning him to his fate after Joffrey's murder? Both are defensible from her point of view but from Tyrion's they do look bad. Maybe it's just Tyrion's bad luck that Sansa's fantasies about hideously ugly men run towards the extremely tall and powerful instead of the extremely short and awkward … But, no, if anyone argues that Sansa somehow owes it to Tyrion to fall in love with him, that doesn't make any sense.

[Ser_Patreck]

I don't think it's eugenics at all, nor is there a suggestion of it in the OP.

I'm sorry, but "Tyrion is a dwarf so he isn't healthy so you shouldn't have sex with him" sounds disgustingly eugenic to me. "Tyrion isn't conventionally attractive so women shouldn't get flak for refusing to bed him" is another thing altogether, and one that I find completely reasonable.

[Ser_Patreck]

Doesn't a lot of that have to do with humiliating him at their wedding or abandoning him to his fate after Joffrey's murder? Both are defensible from her point of view but from Tyrion's they do look bad. Maybe it's just Tyrion's bad luck that Sansa's fantasies about hideously ugly men run towards the extremely tall and powerful instead of the extremely short and awkward … But, no, if anyone argues that Sansa somehow owes it to Tyrion to fall in love with him, that doesn't make any sense.

As fas as I'm aware, people's criticism towards Sansa's shallowness is about those point, yes, and about her ealier view about Beauty equating Morality that, while completely understandable given the way she was brought up, is a tad bit irritating.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

I'm sorry, but "Tyrion is a dwarf so he isn't healthy so you shouldn't have sex with him" sounds disgustingly eugenic to me. "Tyrion isn't conventionally attractive so women shouldn't get flak for refusing to bed him" is another thing altogether, and one that I find completely reasonable.

Where do you think attraction comes from?

Tyrion is a dwarf ergo his seed is dodgy ergo he isn't attractive as a prospective partner.

It's no different to me heading out, seeing a girl with big breasts and wide hips and thinking I want her.

There's no consideration of eugenics, there's just a natural thought about whether they're attractive or not.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I don't think anyone needs to resort to looks for a reason to reject Tyrion. He's not Gregor, but he is not a nice guy in many, many ways.

Yes, Tyrion's always been flawed in ways that aren't physical. No argument there. He has a bad turn after his trial. However, bearing false witness against a man on trial for murder who faces execution if he's found guilty is to be complicit in killing him and he'd spent two novels protecting her. Shae didn't owe him her love, either, but what she did at his trial isn't defensible. I have no problem with the argument that it was the equivalent of trying to have him murdered.

And sure, the rape fantasy is bad, but you could also argue (if you want to keep up this idea of "equivalence") that what he did to the woman at Illyrio's manse was actual rape.

[Ser_Patreck]

Where do you think attraction comes from?

Tyrion is a dwarf ergo his seed is dodgy ergo he isn't attractive as a prospective partner.

It's no different to me heading out, seeing a girl with big breasts and wide hips and thinking I want her.

There's no consideration of eugenics, there's just a natural thought about whether they're attractive or not.

1 - From a myriad sources, including, but not limited to, biological impulses, socio-cultural considerations and individual quirks born from personal experiences.

2 - Hmm, yeah. That's eugenics.

3 - It's different. Unless you believe that small-breasted women shouldn't be allowed to bear children. In that case, yeah, it's the same.

4 - It's natural talk about attraction when we realize women wouldn't normally fall head over heels for Tyrion. It's talk about eugenics when we say they wouldn't and shouldn't because he's a dwarf and so he should just swallow it up that he's not good enough to have sex with anyone.

[Ser_Patreck]

Yes, Tyrion's always been flawed in ways that aren't physical. No argument there. He has a bad turn after his trial. However, bearing false witness against a man on trial for murder who faces execution if he's found guilty is to be complicit in killing him and he'd spent two novels protecting her. Shae didn't owe him her love, either, but what she did at his trial isn't defensible. I have no problem with the argument that it was the equivalent of trying to have him murdered.

And sure, the rape fantasy is bad, but you could also argue (if you want to keep up this idea of "equivalence") that what he did to the woman at Illyrio's manse was actual rape.

Yes, he is. But most of his psychological flaws are born from his physical ones and the way he has been treated because of them; Also the unfortunate circumstances of his birth.

I mean, when the only female relative you interact with growing up is the sister that used to twist your baby penis when she was upset with something she read in a book, you can be damn sure you aren't going to have healthy ideas about women.

[The Manhood-Eating Goat]

1 - From a myriad sources, including, but not limited to, biological impulses, socio-cultural considerations and individual quirks born from personal experiences.

2 - Hmm, yeah. That's eugenics.

3 - It's different. Unless you believe that small-breasted women shouldn't be allowed to bear children. In that case, yeah, it's the same.

4 - It's natural talk about attraction when we realize women wouldn't normally fall head over heels for Tyrion. It's talk about eugenics when we say they wouldn't and shouldn't because he's a dwarf and so he should just swallow it up that he's not good enough to have sex with anyone.

1-Absolutely there's myriad factors to attraction. Physical reactions will always, always be the first and foremost and the arbiter of these though.

2-That isn't eugenics at all. Eugenics is an applied science. Women don't sit and think to themselves "his genes aren't the ones I want", women are born to sub-consciously judge prospective mates and think the best one. There isn't anybody forcing them not to breed with Tyrion, there's nothing but their own mind letting them know that Tyrion is not the ideal mate.

3-I have never said small-breasted women shouldn't be allowed to bear children. I have said that men will naturally pre-judge big-breasted women as being more suited mates.

4-It isn't natural to talk about eugenics when we consider that woman wouldn't and by nature shouldn't be attracted to Tyrion. If there were scientific voices pressuring women to avoid Tyrion's genes it would be eugenics. When women consider their own natural ideas and aren't attracted to Tyrion it's nothing more than nature. No eugenics involved.

[Thel]

I know the point has been made, but Tyrion isn't exactly falling all over himself to bed Penny.

ps. Also, while I understand discomfort with the 'eugenic' tones of the OP--if we want to register that discomfort as valid, wenshouldntake into account the shipping of female sexuality as breeding bodies in the series, as well. "she will bear you fine sons" smacks of this inclination, too.