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Dragonsteel Theory


greygnarl

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Does anyone recall if Dawn is Valyrian Steel - I think I have the name of the sword correct - I am referring to the sword made from a meteorite (presumably of the iron type) - or is meteorite iron already fiery enough to be raw material for Valyrian-type steel?

It's not, it's unique in all of Westeross, older than the Valyrian steel weapons that we know of, and forged from a fallen star. But there is a theory going that Dawn is the original Light Bringer and therefore possibly it is a proto-valyrian steel blade (assuming that's what dragon steel is and that the Last Hero/AA forged a dragon steel blade to defeat the Others).

dragons are from Valeria and Valerian steel is also from there so i recon "dragonsteel" is valerian steel

According to GRRM, Dragons were once everywhere.

Which, to me, strengthens the argument. If dragons were everywhere then the special blades forged with the help of dragons would likely be named dragonsteel. Once dragons became unique to Valyria it's likely that Valyrians became the only ones who had wide-spread access to those weapons and so people started calling them valyrian steel.

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I think I may have misread the theory.

I took from it that dragons had actually forged/created dragonsteel...meaning it was made from something other than the swords and daggers we have seen thus far in the series. If the theory is simply stating that dragons blew fire on 'steel' to create dragonsteel, I must completely disagree. :(

Do you think the dragons made their own steel, like without human intervention? Because I am pretty sure Tyrion says that most the story's about dragons are false, like when it comes to them talking, and hoarding jewls and gold.

If you disagree with dragonsteel being steel forged in dragon flame(and possibly spells), then what do you think it is?

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Do you think the dragons made their own steel, like without human intervention? Because I am pretty sure Tyrion says that most the story's about dragons are false, like when it comes to them talking, and hoarding jewls and gold.

If you disagree with dragonsteel being steel forged in dragon flame(and possibly spells), then what do you think it is?

Targs were frequently called "dragons" - maybe them

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Targs were frequently called "dragons" - maybe them

Maybe them what? The Targaryen's were not in Westeros until thousands of years after the Long Night.

And Targaryen's are also Valyrian, ergo Valyrian Steel, equals dragonsteel, if you want to go that route. I highly doubt the Targaryen's made their own kind of steel, aside from Valyrian Steel, and then called it "dragonsteel".

Edit.

Also, the Targaryen's did not take possession of Dragonstone until a hundred years before the Doom of Valyria. So up until 500 years ago, the Targaryen's were not even anywhere near Westeros.

If the Targaryen's have any connection with dragonsteel, then it would be through their Valyrian heritage, in creating Valyrian Steel.

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Which, to me, strengthens the argument. If dragons were everywhere then the special blades forged with the help of dragons would likely be named dragonsteel. Once dragons became unique to Valyria it's likely that Valyrians became the only ones who had wide-spread access to those weapons and so people started calling them valyrian steel.

Very nice theory, but I disagree.

Do you think the dragons made their own steel, like without human intervention? Because I am pretty sure Tyrion says that most the story's about dragons are false, like when it comes to them talking, and hoarding jewls and gold.

If you disagree with dragonsteel being steel forged in dragon flame(and possibly spells), then what do you think it is?

If the term 'dragonsteel' is referring to actual weapons I think humans were used in the making of dragonsteel, but I think it was different from Valyrian Steel.

Personally, I feel 'dragonsteel' is referring to actual dragons, but that's just me. :)

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Very nice theory, but I disagree.

If the term 'dragonsteel' is referring to actual weapons I think humans were used in the making of dragonsteel, but I think it was different from Valyrian Steel.

Personally, I feel 'dragonsteel' is referring to actual dragons, but that's just me. :)

When your writing down such an advent as the Long Night into history, and when you get to the part on how to kill the Others, why would you write "dragonsteel", when talking about dragons? Nothing else about the Others was cryptic like that. When ever the Long Night was documented, they evidently did not have the "scientific terms", that they use now in the present story. Instead of obsidian they called it dragonglass, so it makes sense that they would call Valyrian Steel(or something similar to it) "dragonsteel".

I could be wrong, and so could Sam and Jon, dragonsteel could be something other than Valyrian Steel, but I really don't think dragonsteel means actual living dragons. There would be no reason to add the "steel" to the "dragon", why not just say dragons. I mean, it's not like with obsidian, they didn't have a word for obsidian, so they called it "dragonglass", but with dragonsteel, they obviously know the word "dragon", so if they know that word, then there is no reason to say dragonsteel, if they just meant dragons.

However, I wonder if dragonsteel means dragon bones? Aren't dragon bones suppose to be really strong? Maybe they made weapons from dragon bones, and because they are so strong, they called it dragonsteel?

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When your writing down such an advent as the Long Night into history, and when you get to the part on how to kill the Others, why would you write "dragonsteel", when talking about dragons? Nothing else about the Others was cryptic like that. When ever the Long Night was documented, they evidently did not have the "scientific terms", that they use now in the present story. Instead of obsidian they called it dragonglass, so it makes sense that they would call Valyrian Steel(or something similar to it) "dragonsteel".

I could be wrong, and so could Sam and Jon, dragonsteel could be something other than Valyrian Steel, but I really don't think dragonsteel means actual living dragons. There would be no reason to add the "steel" to the "dragon", why not just say dragons. I mean, it's not like with obsidian, they didn't have a word for obsidian, so they called it "dragonglass", but with dragonsteel, they obviously know the word "dragon", so if they know that word, then there is no reason to say dragonsteel, if they just meant dragons.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. I believe differently. I have a theory that I believe would explain your question, but I doubt you will buy it, so whats the point. ^_^

However, I wonder if dragonsteel means dragon bones? Aren't dragon bones suppose to be really strong? Maybe they made weapons from dragon bones, and because they are so strong, they called it dragonsteel?

Now that, I like! It's certainly possible.

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Which, to me, strengthens the argument. If dragons were everywhere then the special blades forged with the help of dragons would likely be named dragonsteel. Once dragons became unique to Valyria it's likely that Valyrians became the only ones who had wide-spread access to those weapons and so people started calling them valyrian steel.

Very nice theory, but I disagree.

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that was my theory, only that I think your argument here actually worked against you more than for you. I'm not sold on any theory. I think the valyrian steel theory has a lot going for it, but the fact that Sam and Jon both leap to that conclusion makes me a little suspicious.

I do disagree with the idea that dragon steel means dragons, though, basically for what Ghost says:

When your writing down such an advent as the Long Night into history, and when you get to the part on how to kill the Others, why would you write "dragonsteel", when talking about dragons? Nothing else about the Others was cryptic like that. When ever the Long Night was documented, they evidently did not have the "scientific terms", that they use now in the present story. Instead of obsidian they called it dragonglass, so it makes sense that they would call Valyrian Steel(or something similar to it) "dragonsteel".

I could be wrong, and so could Sam and Jon, dragonsteel could be something other than Valyrian Steel, but I really don't think dragonsteel means actual living dragons. There would be no reason to add the "steel" to the "dragon", why not just say dragons. I mean, it's not like with obsidian, they didn't have a word for obsidian, so they called it "dragonglass", but with dragonsteel, they obviously know the word "dragon", so if they know that word, then there is no reason to say dragonsteel, if they just meant dragons.

However, I wonder if dragonsteel means dragon bones? Aren't dragon bones suppose to be really strong? Maybe they made weapons from dragon bones, and because they are so strong, they called it dragonsteel?

Yeah, I've wondered about dragonbone as well. It has iron in it, and could perhaps be made into a unique type of steel, but there is a SSM where he says specifically that it is not used in the forging of valyrian steel, but it seems no one thought to ask the obvious follow-up of if it could be forged at all or only carved. I never thought of simply carving it into a point and poking the bad guys with it! Assuming it is not valyrian steel, dragonbone seems like the likeliest guess.

To me it's probably a toss up between these two theories. Dragon steel could mean either valyrian steel or steel requiring a dragon in the manufacture (most likely for the raw material in my opinion). On the one hand it's getting down to crunch time and the heroes need to put their knowledge to use to come up with a counter to the Others, and the urgency lends itself to using a known quantity. On the other hand, Martin isn't in a habit of making things easy on people or allowing them to properly interpret arcane knowledge.

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When your writing down such an advent as the Long Night into history, and when you get to the part on how to kill the Others, why would you write "dragonsteel", when talking about dragons?

The First Men did not write like the modern day Westerosi write, they wrote using runes, and everything they left behind had to be translated by Andal maesters and septons. It is entirely possible that the author Sam was reading simply mistranslated some runes that merely described the use of dragons as a weapon. Indeed, it is very likely that at least some mistranslation occurred here, since steel was supposed to be beyond the First Men's technology (their weapons are said to have been made of bronze). So it is quite probable that the use of the term "steel" here is an anachronism, much like the anachronism of knights existing in Westeros before there were knights, as Sam points out in the very same chapter. Therefore, I think there is very much room for the term "dragonsteel" to refer to something other than a literal sword.

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Just to be clear, I wasn't saying that was my theory, only that I think your argument here actually worked against you more than for you. I'm not sold on any theory. I think the valyrian steel theory has a lot going for it, but the fact that Sam and Jon both leap to that conclusion makes me a little suspicious.

I can see how you could view it that way, it is a matter of interpretation.

The First Men did not write like the modern day Westerosi write, they wrote using runes, and everything they left behind had to be translated by Andal maesters and septons. It is entirely possible that the author Sam was reading simply mistranslated some runes that merely described the use of dragons as a weapon. Indeed, it is very likely that at least some mistranslation occurred here, since steel was supposed to be beyond the First Men's technology (their weapons are said to have been made of bronze). So it is quite probable that the use of the term "steel" here is an anachronism, much like the anachronism of knights existing in Westeros before there were knights, as Sam points out in the very same chapter. Therefore, I think there is very much room for the term "dragonsteel" to refer to something other than a literal sword.

Thank you for typing that out, plus you articulated it so well. I usually get so frustrated trying to explain this that I have now ceased to explain my position on 'dragonsteel'.

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The First Men did not write like the modern day Westerosi write, they wrote using runes, and everything they left behind had to be translated by Andal maesters and septons. It is entirely possible that the author Sam was reading simply mistranslated some runes that merely described the use of dragons as a weapon. Indeed, it is very likely that at least some mistranslation occurred here, since steel was supposed to be beyond the First Men's technology (their weapons are said to have been made of bronze). So it is quite probable that the use of the term "steel" here is an anachronism, much like the anachronism of knights existing in Westeros before there were knights, as Sam points out in the very same chapter. Therefore, I think there is very much room for the term "dragonsteel" to refer to something other than a literal sword.

Never discount oral histories which may be transcribed later. Perhaps an old word turned into dragonsteel verbally.

Good point about the fact that First Men were in bronze age. The Last Hero would have to be the first to use steel if thats what it is. The First Men had a treaty with the C ot F during the Age of Heroes but there is no indication that steel was invented anywhere during this time.

Or the oral history of the Last Hero may have also been mistaken. He had to use something the Others were vulnerable to though. The Last Hero might have been more of an army to drive the Others out. Where they got the proper weapon is just unknown. It might be something from the North known by the C ot F

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I still think dragonsteel was just absorbed by the valyrians into their own culture. I doubt it's anything drastically different. If it were the bones, why wouldn't people have dragontooth daggers?

Well the dagger used to try and kill Bran had a dragonbone hilt on it, and I got the feeling that, that was something rare. Also, my guess would be, because dragonbone is very expensive in the present day, and it's used to make the best bows and stuff. Also, people use daggers for everyday things, so I imagine they would proffer steel. I would think steel would be able to get sharper than dragon bone, and when steel gets dull, you can always sharpen it easily. Dragon bone just wouldn't seem as practical, similar to why Jeor Mormont proffered his steel dagger, to the one Jon made him from dragonglass.

Again that's just my guess.

I am really starting to like my idea though, about dragonsteel being dragonbone. I mean, GRRM did say that at one time there were dragons everywhere, so it seems possible that the First Men could have found dragonbone, and then fashioned it into weapons, to fight against the Others.

Also, I would think dragonbone would be stronger than bronze. So because fire kills the Others, and because dragons are fire made flesh, it would make sense that dragonbone would kill them.

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I am really starting to like my idea though, about dragonsteel being dragonbone. I mean, GRRM did say that at one time there were dragons everywhere, so it seems possible that the First Men could have found dragonbone, and then fashioned it into weapons, to fight against the Others.

The use of dragonbone for bows seems to indicate that its properties wouldn't be ideal for use in other types of weapons, particularly bladed ones. Yes, it's used as a material for decorative purposes and for handles of various things, but bones have never been particularly good cutting implements. They can hold a point relatively well, and that's why they were used extensively for needles throughout human history, but as blades, they wouldn't be very effective weapons.

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The use of dragonbone for bows seems to indicate that its properties wouldn't be ideal for use in other types of weapons, particularly bladed ones. Yes, it's used as a material for decorative purposes and for handles of various things, but bones have never been particularly good cutting implements. They can hold a point relatively well, and that's why they were used extensively for needles throughout human history, but as blades, they wouldn't be very effective weapons.

Are you saying this is the reason why they don't use dragonbone for the blades on daggers, like the post before mine asked? Or are you saying this against the dragonbone = dragonsteel theory?

Because if it's about the theory, I don't think that rules it out. If dragonsteel is dragonbone, then that means they could have still made stabbing weapons to fight the Others. Like daggers, and spears, and maybe even dragonbone arrows(?). If it is even possible to make an arrow from dragonbone that is, if it is possible, that would definitely be a game changer. A bow, and arrows, both made of dragonbone, if possible, would make a hell of a durable weapon. Having the luxury of a projectile weapon against the Others would really be a nice thing to have, not having to get up close, could make all the difference, and the Nights Watch could shoot the Others safely on top of the Wall.

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Maybe them what? The Targaryen's were not in Westeros until thousands of years after the Long Night.

Since we don't have any proof one way or the other How do you know they had not come to Westeros before? At the time of the Long Night there was a land bridge between Westeros and Essos. The whole AA and mayhaps ptwp are from Essos.

And another thing is the Targ were the last valyrian dragon riders which means they weren't the only ones, so even if they never came to Westeros, that doesn't mean Dragon riders didn't come during the long night.

back to the OP, I still like the idea that either the Throne of Swords was made of Dragonsteel swords or that when they were melted by a dragon were turn into Dragonsteel. I think the question of what is Dragonsteel will be the hard part, once it is known the answer to where to get it will be easy, I don't see getting dragon bones swords as something easy.

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Are you saying this is the reason why they don't use dragonbone for the blades on daggers, like the post before mine asked? Or are you saying this against the dragonbone = dragonsteel theory?

Some of each. With the traditional Westerosi sword giving slashing and piercing somewhat equal weight, it doesn't seem like they would've favored a material or tactic that lent itself only to thrusting. And since the legend we're talking about is specifically speaking about a sword, I think we must consider it as the primary weapon made from this material. Points made from bone are generally very narrow and short due to the properties of the material and bone doesn't lend itself well to large, pointed objects with any real durability.

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