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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

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I think this is not very likely. Sansa is a Stark, and if the male Stark line is no more, she IS the heir. That means the Manderleys etc are her bannermen. They can't force her to do anything at all. In Dorne there is female primogeniture, but in the rest of Westeros women can inherit as well if there are no male heirs, which is why Sansa is so interesting: for her claim.

There's another thing to consider as well: the northerners are very, very loyal to Ned and the Starks. In ADWD, we see it with the hill clans, we see it with the Manderleys, and there are lots of theories floating around that Barbrey Ryswell is only playing Theon and that she is actually loyal as well. The Umbers are only fighting for the Boltons because of the hostages at the Twins, and even then half of them joined Stannis. Now Stannis main issue with making Sansa the heir of Winterfell was because she was married to a Lannister. It had nothing to do with her being female, nor did he seem to doubt that had she not been married, she could have been Acting Stark. the complaint he brings to Jon Snow is that she is Lady Lannister.

The North is indeed not Dorne. In fact, in light of ADWD, (which btw is very cleverly done, we have seen almost nothing of the north before) we are constantly reminded of how the North Remembers and There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. I think the northerners know this too. They have been ruled by the Starks for 8000 years and they don't seem too keen on changing that any time soon. Plus the adored Ned. The Hill clanmen are fully prepared to storm Winterfell and die for "Ned's little girl" so I think the southerners are not only under estimating Sansa and her siblings, but they are underestimating the northerners as a whole. Tywin thought he has them in his pocket with Bolton, but that is about to fall apart. Theon's and Davos's chapters in ADWD are quite instructive on this, and they still only hint at what will come. Really quite tantalising. :)

When it comes to controlling bannermen, the ones that needed controlling were Boltons and Kartstarks, and Alys Karstark has already declared for Jon Snow, more or less, so she's given the finger to Arnolf and he got arrested by Stannis (hah) and the Boltons are about to get theirs soon enough. The rest of the bannermen seem to just wait for an opportunity to rejoin the Stark cause (se the Mormonts and the Manderleys).

The Dunk and Egg novella are supposed to be called "The She-wolves of Winterfell" so female running of the Stark household? Not unheard of! :)

I think Manderley would be forever pleased if every Frey was eradicated from the face of the planet? :)

That really is a man with a mission, a one man-to-fat-to-sit-a-horse mission. Besides, Manderley is all pro Stark: the North Remembers. It's also more inevitable even than "Fire and Blood".

Another thing when it comes to pleasing Bannermen. Sansa IS extremely good at being pleasing and flattering. LF is grooming her for the purpose of knowing what people want and using that knowledge. What better way to please her bannermen than that?

Lyanna Stark, do you realize that you managed to hit on every single one of my favorite things in a single post? The North, the Starks, Sansa, the Mormont women, Stannis, Lord To-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse. I'm going to print this out and get it framed to put on my wall.

I agree with everything you stated. Bolton does not have nearly the allies that he thinks he does. The Karstarks are lost to him even though he doesn't know that yet and we know from Theon's gift chapter that the Umbers took old men and green boys with them to WF. The experienced fighters are with Stannis. They are hedging their bets because of the WF but that distinction tells you were their loyalties lay. If Manderly has his way, the Freys will all be put in to pies soon anyways.

This is why I joke all the times that the Starks don't need to actually do anything, they just need to show up. Sansa's problem is not her age or gender, it's her last name. As Dance shows us, there is no way that the North would ever accept a Lannister in WF. If Tyrion were to attempt it, he would be dead within the week. The whole thing just showed how completely ignorant the South is when it comes to Northern culture.

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This is exactly what I think too. Jon in KL? He would be completely lost and stumble about mucking up the Game - he would only be marginally better than Ned!

And Dany has shown herself to be a sluggish procrastinator of a leader in Meereen. She has noble ideas, much like Jon, but is not very practical about how she realises them...

(Myrcella for the Iron Throne!)

Agreed 100%

I don't see Dany getting the Iron Throne at all really, especially since she seems so convinced she'll get it.

Also I'd laugh if Myrcella ended up Queen, what a turn of events that would be! I could see her turning into a strong character in the future though, with her now disfigured appearance helping her mature a bit (seriously what's up with GRRM and disfiguring people :shocked:).

Anyway, I'm off to bed folks! Have a fun discussion (I'll probably be completely lost at the rate this thread goes).

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I dunno JonxDany has always been too fairytale (and kinda gross if L+R=J is true) for it to actually happen. And I really don't see Jon on the throne (or Dany either for that matter). Jon is a northerner, not matter whether he has Targ blood in him, he's actually spent more time in the north then any of the other Starks. I can't see him suddenly switching and going south. I mean I don't think he's even be south of WF before! Let alone the river lands and further south.

Blasphemy! :P Seriously, out of all the Starks (secret Targs), Jon is most capable and most suitable to taking a leadership (read King)role, and Dany is definitely going to have a big role to play in this whole battle with the Others. I also don't see why JonxDany is fairytale. I don't see them coming together in some love at first sight fashion, and they've both led hard lives filled with love and loss.

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Agreed 100%

I don't see Dany getting the Iron Throne at all really, especially since she seems so convinced she'll get it.

Also I'd laugh if Myrcella ended up Queen, what a turn of events that would be! I could see her turning into a strong character in the future though, with her now disfigured appearance helping her mature a bit (seriously what's up with GRRM and disfiguring people :shocked:)

Well, it's not just his readers he likes torturing, his characters get a pretty had time too! :P

I've been backing Myrcella for the throne for a while now, if she does end up there I will punch the air and shout 'huzzah'. Seriously though, when you think about it, she's the best contender. Jon and Dany I've already dismissed as obvious, and ill-suited, I like Stannis but his being increasingly cuckolded by Melisandre is ... somewhat disturbing and I'm sure the realm will have a problem with the king worshipping the Red God. Apart from that those three do we have - Tommen - too easily manipulated and shows early signs of a weak character, cries a lot, etc. Myrcella, though only a year older, shows much more maturity and intelligence. The only other possible contender is Euron who is quite simply an arse and not a serious contender at all. I see a good chance for Myrcella all in all. :)

Blasphemy! :P Seriously, out of all the Starks (secret Targs), Jon is most capable and most suitable to taking a leadership (read King)role, and Dany is definitely going to have a big role to play in this whole battle with the Others. I also don't see why JonxDany is fairytale. I don't see them coming together in some love at first sight fashion, and they've both led hard lives filled with love and loss.

Jon is a great leader on the Wall where the role is mostly military and only slightly political, but during peacetime in the South - I don't see that as his 'scene' at all, if I see a long term future for him at all it's as Lord of Winterfell - more so than wild!Rickon or tree!Bran. That is presuming of course that the Wall will become useless in the long run after the defeat of the others.

As for Dany, I think she will conquer, but that it won't last. Her dragons will obviously be used against the Others, but I think some tragic end is in store for her.

Also - how can I support DanyxJon when my heart secretly bleeds for DanyxJorah :crying: (with her less haughty and him less obsessive/possessive, of course)

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Blasphemy! :P Seriously, out of all the Starks (secret Targs), Jon is most capable and most suitable to taking a leadership (read King)role, and Dany is definitely going to have a big role to play in this whole battle with the Others. I also don't see why JonxDany is fairytale. I don't see them coming together in some love at first sight fashion, and they've both led hard lives filled with love and loss.

I know I said night night but I've got to respond to this before bed!

Regarding the bolded bit, The reason it's fairytale is because it means the main male lead (Jon) and the main female lead (Dany) both end up with a happy ending in which both are together and rule over Westeros for ever after. If that isn't loads of tropes mixed into one, I don't know what is.

Also I'm becoming more and more suspicious that their won't be an Iron throne to take once this is all over. I really don't see anyone really suited for the role. Jon might be good at leadership but he's not a southerner and he never will be, he wouldn't want the throne, even for the 'good of the realm' (why would it be?) I don't think he would take it, he would feel it's not his place, most likely because it well...isn't. I could never see King Jon happening, I just can't.

Queen Dany is another story. I mainly don't see it happening because it something that has been desired from the start and knowing GRRM this means its 80% not likely to happen.

Well, it's not just his readers he likes torturing, his characters get a pretty had time too! :P

I've been backing Myrcella for the throne for a while now, if she does end up there I will punch the air and shout 'huzzah'. Seriously though, when you think about it, she's the best contender. Jon and Dany I've already dismissed as obvious, and ill-suited, I like Stannis but his being increasingly cuckolded by Melisandre is ... somewhat disturbing and I'm sure the realm will have a problem with the king worshipping the Red God. Apart from that those three do we have - Tommen - too easily manipulated and shows early signs of a weak character, cries a lot, etc. Myrcella, though only a year older, shows much more maturity and intelligence. The only other possible contender is Euron who is quite simply an arse and not a serious contender at all. I see a good chance for Myrcella all in all. :)

Well when you put it like that, it does make Myrcella seem like she has a chance, especially with Dorne (kinda) on her side. But like I said before, I'm doubtful that there will be an Iron throne left by the end of this. Then again I'm a cynic.

Also - how can I support DanyxJon when my heart secretly bleeds for DanyxJorah :crying: (with her less haughty and him less obsessive/possessive, of course)

A fellow DanyxJorah shipper! I know its not going to happen but I still want it too...mainly because of Tv!Jorah but darn it... :crying:

Okay! Now goodnight! :drunk:

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Well when you put it like that, it does make Myrcella seem like she has a chance, especially with Dorne (kinda) on her side. But like I said before, I'm doubtful that there will be an Iron throne left by the end of this. Then again I'm a cynic.

Even if the kingdoms are split up again I still think she would make a great co-leader for Dorne - she loves it there and she loves Trystane too from what we've read and he adores her! (A happy marriage in Westeros people - arranged but happy!)

A fellow DanyxJorah shipper! I know its not going to happen but I still want it too...mainly because of Tv!Jorah but darn it... :crying:

I'm not alone, thank the Seven! I knoooow he feels he's somehow entitled to her affections or something, and I knoooow he betrayed her but he only wanted to get home and possessiveness seems to be in his nature. Also when he loves he pretty much goes crazy (see: Lynesse) so I forgive him. (On a side note: Tv!Jorah is perfection.) As for Dany, well she can hardly bear to exile him (no pun intended), she wanted to cry the whole time...

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Great posts everyone! I really enjoyed reading your discussion :)

Also I'm becoming more and more suspicious that their won't be an Iron throne to take once this is all over.

Yes, me too! In addition, Westerosi society may look very different once the Others are defeated (unless the whole plotline about the Others is just a big red herring lol), leading maybe to a more egalitarian, less patriarchal structure? I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part though

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Lyanna Stark, do you realize that you managed to hit on every single one of my favorite things in a single post? The North, the Starks, Sansa, the Mormont women, Stannis, Lord To-Fat-To-Sit-A-Horse. I'm going to print this out and get it framed to put on my wall.

:blushing: Thank you! :grouphug: The North really is pretty amazing and so untapped on story potential

Yes, me too! In addition, Westerosi society may look very different once the Others are defeated (unless the whole plotline about the Others is just a big red herring lol), leading maybe to a more egalitarian, less patriarchal structure? I guess that's just wishful thinking on my part though

If we look at Dany as a more modern version of Aegon the Conqueror and the fact that she's already struggling with being a woman and ruling in her own right + restrictive Targaryen primogeniture (it's extremely prohibitive of women since the first Dance of Dragons), I do believe Dany will be a progressive force. It makes no sense for her to battle these issues once in Meereen only to be defeated by the same once more when she arrives in Westeros.

Besides, she will have pretty good supporters in Asha, Arianne and Sansa, I think. Depending on how things pan out, the Tyrells as well, although I wonder if Marg is going to survive. My bets are on no.

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I see what you're getting at here... does anybody remember when it first appears in the series? Does it replace Joff's necklace? If so then that would fit with your theory QueenSansaStark and also not be in contradiction with Sansa's eventual becoming queen...

I haven't read these Dunk and Egg stories, can someone please spell out for me the dragonfly necklace?

Also, it's totally possible that Sansa will be the next queen, and have another arranged marriage, and that it will be part of the bittersweet ending we've been promised. She doesn't get to go back to her family and Winterfell, and her happy safe days, she gets married for her status, and she ends up queen. That seems like it could fit bittersweet ending criteria for Sansa. Also, she can fit the prophecy easily enough I would think, but so far in a loose, non literal way -

Taking all Cercie holds dear - Joffrey (Sansa unwittingly carried the poison that was used to kill Joffry). Myrcella (she was sent away for safety/political reasons when Robb was marching to KL, in war with Lannisters). Tommen (when Joffry dies, he's wed to Margery, thus taking him out of Cercei's complete influence). Jamie (Sansa stark is his last chance for honor - and he chose not to come when Cercei sent him the letter for him to return - but I also think that there is more coming where he will have some other role in protecting Sansa from cercie somehow and further separating the twins).

Anyway, just some thoughts to ponder.

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Jon is a great leader on the Wall where the role is mostly military and only slightly political, but during peacetime in the South - I don't see that as his 'scene' at all, if I see a long term future for him at all it's as Lord of Winterfell - more so than wild!Rickon or tree!Bran. That is presuming of course that the Wall will become useless in the long run after the defeat of the others.

Surely King Beyond The Wall?

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:blushing: Thank you! :grouphug: The North really is pretty amazing and so untapped on story potential

If we look at Dany as a more modern version of Aegon the Conqueror and the fact that she's already struggling with being a woman and ruling in her own right + restrictive Targaryen primogeniture (it's extremely prohibitive of women since the first Dance of Dragons), I do believe Dany will be a progressive force. It makes no sense for her to battle these issues once in Meereen only to be defeated by the same once more when she arrives in Westeros.

Besides, she will have pretty good supporters in Asha, Arianne and Sansa, I think. Depending on how things pan out, the Tyrells as well, although I wonder if Marg is going to survive. My bets are on no.

I've wondered before if Martin purposely didn't reveal to much about Northern culture as it would give away to much of the ending.

I agree with Dany. I have no idea what will happen with Dany but Martin does like to do things in pairs. She's struggling to be a progressive force in Mereen and I don't see her abandoning that when she arrives in Westeros. Just don't know how it will play out. I also don't think it is chance that we see women in potentially powerful roles emerging in so many places in Westeros.

I don't think Marg is going to survive. I'm predicting we will start seeing the downfall of the Tyrells in WoW.

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Hey everyone!

Here’s some thoughts on Jeyne Poole. I know that the comparative focus has been on role models, that is, older or otherwise more “powerful”/ “authoritatively positioned” women. Jeyne is a bit different in her role to Sansa, in my opinion. They’re peers in terms of age, but in this relationship, Sansa is in the more “powerful” role given their stations, as well as a more “authoritative” one based on Jeyne’s apparent reverence for Sansa’s perceived excellence at studies and natural grace. To this end, I would call Sansa Jeyne’s role model.

On a literary register, I think of Jeyne as a foil for Sansa. Both begin at relatively the same “point A,” lose their families, are imprisoned, undergo a series of physical and mental abuses, and are then coerced into assuming new identities as pawns for someone else’s game. (As a side note, even though Jeyne becomes “Arya Stark,” I don’t think the Jeyne-Arya symmetry is nearly as poignant as the Jeyne-Sansa parallel.) What’s fascinating to me is that while their arcs contain a fairly symmetrical “action” trajectory, the evolution of the two characters could not be more different. Sansa emerges from her trials in Kings Landing with hope, compassion, stronger self-control and a sense of self, whereas Jeyne is broken by her abuse, no longer believing herself an agent, without any fight left in her, nor hope for a better life; she is resigned to a life of misery.

Quick Caveat: I hate the thought of quantifying levels of abuse; with that said, I feel I must express that I think Jeyne’s arc of abuse reached a higher and more invasive degree of physical, sexual and psychological depravity than Sansa’s did, both during and after KL. I bring this up only to recognize that while their trials have been quite similar, the unfathomably disgusting abuse that Jeyne endured may have broken even the hardiest spirit, and in fairness to Jeyne’s breakdown, I wanted to acknowledge this nuance since I’m “foiling” them.

I wanted to highlight a few key points from their “Point A” to their respective evolutions as foils.

Sewing Instruction: Sansa as role model

The first we see of Jeyne is through Arya’s POV, where they along with Beth, Myrcella and Sansa are receiving sewing instruction at Winterfell. During this interaction, the authority figure, Septa Mordane, swoons over both Sansa and Myrcella, and unsurprisingly, Beth and Jeyne fawn over them as well. Interestingly, even though Myrcella is the “most important” lady there, Arya’s observations suggest that Sansa is actually the most graceful and “noble” of the girls. When Arya asks what the girls are talking about, Jeyne is catty, trying to exclude Arya. Sansa, however, graciously opens the conversation to include Arya.

My impression of Jeyne is that she recognizes Sansa’s natural graciousness and excellence, and rather than outright envying Sansa, believes that by being closer to her, Sansa’s grace will “rub off” on her. She seems keen to reinforce their closeness, and as an extension of that, to highlight the differences between the sisters, perhaps to maintain a kind of fantasy that she and Sansa are social equals. As part of this cattiness, we learn that Jeyne coined the insult “Arya Horseface.”

The Tourney: peers -> difference

Sansa and Jeyne giggle together fancifully of all the young men en route to the Hand’s Tourney. Jeyne confesses she’s afraid of Jalabhar Xho, but that she wants to marry Beric Dondarrion. During the lists, “Jeyne covered her eyes whenever a man fell, like a frightened little girl, but Sansa was made of sterner stuff. A great lady knew how to behave at tournaments.” Not only does Sansa refrain when others engage in mean comments, she also maintains “ladylike” composure even when watching brutal sports. That difference between Sansa’s “appropriate” behavior and Jeyne’s “little girl” reactions strongly foreshadows the course of their arcs, imo. The climax of this event is the death of Arryn’s squire by Gregor: “Jeyne Poole wept so hysterically that Septa Mordane finally took her off to regain her composure, but Sansa sat with her hands folded in her lap, watching with a strange fascination.” Jeyne is “too ill” and doesn’t return to the tourney.

Later, Sansa thinks of Jeyne’s interest in Beric: “Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age.” It seems that Jeyne is willfully overlooking the social hierarchy in subconsciously wishing herself a higher position by proxy to Sansa, whereas despite Sansa’s compassion for Jeyne, understands the invisible line between them.

Capture: Sansa the “mother”

The guards locked Sansa and Jeyne together in Sansa’s chambers after Ned revealed his plans to Cersei. Sansa calls her “useless,” as all she does is cry and sob about her father. Sansa tries to cheer Jeyne by saying that she will put in a request to let Jeyne see her father, but it causes Jeyne to cry that much harder. Sansa thinks to herself that Jeyne is “such a child,” but I wondered if it was perhaps Sansa who might have been naïve in this instance rather than Jeyne. Jeyne was confined after Sansa, and I think that Jeyne may have already been aware of the fate of her father. Is the look she gives Sansa here the first indication of resentment over her lower status, which is the root of why her father was killed while Sansa’s Lord father was not?

New Identity: bowed, bent, broken?

After their shared imprisonment, we know that Jeyne is taken by Littlefinger and trained in one of his brothels, while Sansa endures her trials in KL. She is married against her will to Ramsay as Arya Stark. During the bedding, Theon notes the spiderweb of scars across her back, suggesting that she has undergone severe physical abuse during her “training” in KL. Her abuse continues at the hands of Ramsay, as the Lords can hear her nightly sobs, and Theon observes that she is covered with wounds and bruises when he comes to rescue her at the end of DwD. Before the rescue, she comes close to confiding in Theon of their past identities, but Theon tells her that she must “know her name:” Arya.

Notably, when Theon and the Spearwives come to take her away, she refuses, believing it is a trick and that Ramsay will beat her more thoroughly if she trusts them: “I’m a good girl. They trained me.” Heartbreaking. Where Sansa could still trust enough to put faith in the Tyrells’ and Dontos spiriting her away, Jeyne is so broken that she won’t come by her own volition, even after Theon tries (unsuccessfully) to get her to say her name: Jeyne. She can’t bring herself to walk out of Winterfell unsupported, and is such an emotional wreck that she screams and blows their cover right before they reach freedom.

People talk of Sansa as though she were a simple little girl swept in the wind of her surroundings, as though Sansa does nothing extraordinary for someone thusly beaten and imprisoned. Not so. She could have become Jeyne. There is no "rebuilding of Winterfell of snow" for this poor soul.

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Surely King Beyond The Wall?

Maybe not, but I can see him integrating the Wildlings into Westerosi society post Others-chaos - a challenge worthy of Jon Snow, methinks?

I don't think Marg is going to survive. I'm predicting we will start seeing the downfall of the Tyrells in WoW.

I predict their downfall is going to take a Boleyn-style path and not just because Natalie Dormer is playing Marg.

Mostly I base this on the fact that both Marg and Anne were accused of extramarital affairs with numerous men to bring them down, including their brothers (although not publicly in the case of Marg - but Cersei did think of doing this before she managed to get rid of Loras in another way so I'm counting it as a similarity), so couldn't help noticing the parallel there. Also as regard the supposed lovers of both:

1) Mark Smeaton - the court musician and Anne Boleyn's supposed lover was arrested first and confessed under torture - just like The Blue Bard (who was also a court musician and also confessed first)

2) Sir Henry Norris - suitor to Madge Sheldon, one of Anne's ladies mirrors Mark Mullendore - suitor to Megga Tyrell, one of Margaery's ladies (chosen for this parallel because of more serious relationship with Queen's lady in waiting)

3) Sir Francis Weston - known to have flirted with Madge Sheldon - mirrors Mark Mullendore as well, but also Ser Tallad the Tall - admirer of Alla Tyrell (chosen for this parallel because of less serious relationship with Queen's lady in waiting)

4) Sir William Brereton - accused of sleeping with Anne despite comparatively advanced age (50) as a parallel to Hamish the Harper (who is also too old to be probable as Margaery's lover) (chosen for this parallel solely on the basis of age, since in other respects the two differ)

The others I don't see as clear parallels apart from maybe that some of the accused in Anne's case were members of the King's household - kind of like Osney Kettleback and Lambert Turnberry gives me a Thomas Wyatt-ish feel, both seem kind of naughty (both of these are totally subjective, though), but still the general tendency is there...

Aside from the lovers, Margaery also reminds me of Anne because of the rose symbolism (Tyrell rose/Tudor rose)

And something in her personality, her love of hawking and riding, her popularity with the commons and her close relationship with her brother also make me think of Anne.

On the subject of Loras/George - I think this wikipedia quote fits them both extremely well, if you slide the right sister's name in:

Historian David Starkey recognised George's intellect when he referred to him as having "many of Anne's talents and all of her pride"

On a side note, may people think George was also homosexual although THERE IS NO EVIDENCE as to this point. But then again nobody states Loras' sexuality outright either...?

All in all I think if we are following the Tyrell/Boleyn foreshadowing then I'm pretty sure they are going to come to some sticky end somewhere down the line. Which is sad, because I like the Tyrells, slimy bastards that they are and will be sad to see them go. :(

On a totally unrelated note, while reading the series I knew I was familiar with the name Tyrell from somewhere, so I googled it and here's what I came up with on Wiki, concerning the most famous Tyrell by far:

Sir James Tyrrell (c. 1450 – 6 May 1502) was an English knight, a trusted servant of King Richard III of England. He is known for 'confessing' to the murders of the Princes in the Tower under Richard's orders. However, his statement may have been taken under torture, so the confession might not be genuine. (Nevertheless, William Shakespeare portrays Tyrrell as the man who organises the princes' murderer in Richard III.)[1]

Tyrrell was the eldest son of Sir William Tyrrell (c. 1415 – 22 February 1461) and Margaret Darcy (c. 1425), married in 1444. Like his father before him, a loyal Yorkist, James was knighted in 1471. He married Anne Arundell on 9 March 1483. They would later have a son also named James Tyrrell. He was High Sheriff of Cornwall in 1484.

James was in France in 1485 and played no part in the Battle of Bosworth Field which signalled the start of the Tudor dynasty.

In the following year, he returned to England and was pardoned by King Henry VII, who reappointed him governor of Guisnes (in the English possession of Calais). However, in 1501, Tyrrell lent his support to Edmund de la Pole, 3rd Duke of Suffolk, now the leading Yorkist claimant to the English throne, who was in voluntary exile. When Henry heard of this, Tyrrell was recalled, accused oftreason, and tortured. Thomas More wrote that, during his examination, Tyrrell made his confession as to the murders of King Edward V of England and his brother Richard of Shrewsbury, 1st Duke of York, and implicating two other men; despite further questioning, however, he was unable to say where the bodies were, claiming that they had been moved. He was beheaded at Tower Hill on 6 May 1502, together with his accomplice Sir John Wyndham.

In conclusion: wherever we look in history, whether it be to actual Tyrells by name or people I think symbolise them - they always end up headless. I cannot see this boding well for Margaery and her supporters in the long run... I hope GRRM will surprise me, but I'm not expectant of it. :crying:

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Hey everyone!

Here’s some thoughts on Jeyne Poole (....)

Okay, I'm out of likes, so I'd just like to say this post was pure excellence! I don't believe I have ever thought this much about poor Jeyne and it's heartbreaking how her later state is contrasted against her childish innocence :crying:

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Thanks guys! I'm still catching up with like the last 2 pages of this exponentially growing thread!! I feel like I plopped down the Jeyne stuff out of nowhere!

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The thread is going wayyy to fast guys!!

*A bit late with your Cersei/Sansa analysis Kitty, but here are my thoughts on what you brought up: Apart from mentioning some of the most memorable advices Cersei gives to Sansa, I just feel it’s so sad that Sansa had not only her golden prince turn on her, but also her role model… I’ve always wondered if Cersei back in the first book never considered that Sansa could be the girl from her prophecy. She never treats her the way she treats Marg. Sure, the latter is older and has the QoT backing her up, while Sansa had no one in the red keep, and she considers Sansa to be more tractable than Marg, and so maybe didn’t pose as much as a threat. Maybe since Sansa does really want Joff at the start, Cersei had less contempt for her up to a point? It would be ironic if Sansa ends up being the younger woman from the prophecy cause it would be someone Cersei has already I think mistakenly discarded. But I wonder if the possibility was ever there..?

*Brash, I liked how you expressed your thoughts here:

A woman who is sexually free does not equate to being a woman who is inept or unproductive and marriage does not define a woman’s worth. These are all important examples for Sansa to be exposed to as she grows older, especially in the aftermath of her own marriage to Tyrion, where she rebels against the traditional expectation for women to find their husbands sexually desirable.

Indeed, marriage does not define a woman’s worth. This fits nicely with so many of the women that have been mentioned in the thread this day: from Arianne to Dany to Lady Dustin to the Mormont women... The theory of the Fingers is interesting since as you said, not many of the people who live there would seem to care if Sansa and a loyal dog suddenly came along to stay for a bit...

*Lyanna, love the quotes from LotR and how the situation towards the end in the Shire could be a parallel to what the Starks must endure. I don’t know where Jon fits here, and Bran will remain i think with Bloodraven, but it’s funny how Sansa & Arya who are the ones who are been trying to get home for so long may only get to restore Winterfell and the north before going away again. Whereas Rickon whom i think would still be a bit hard to handle by the end of the books if he is still young, will want to go away and be free and run and be a little wilding, but will have to be the one stark that remains in Winterfell... i think when older he would be a good Lord of Winterfell, but the longing for the wild may call to him at times..?

*Willowbark,

Also, it's totally possible that Sansa will be the next queen, and have another arranged marriage, and that it will be part of the bittersweet ending we've been promised. She doesn't get to go back to her family and Winterfell, and her happy safe days, she gets married for her status, and she ends up queen. That seems like it could fit bittersweet ending criteria for Sansa.

Bittersweet and ironic. But i don’t like this theory because it’s so sad to think about it. She had wanted to be a queen (not for power though) at first, and if in the end she doesn’t want it anymore and is still forced into it, i can see a lot of sansa haters liking that empty hollow lie Sansa would have to live if this is the case...

*The Sanstan name is winning me over ;p

*There was this topic refarding if Sansa will go back north before or during or after the Others come. I think she’ll go there after the chaos and Dany has dealt with the Others.

Great post Butterbumps. Yes, Sansa was definately Jeyne’s role model- and even in Dance we see her stating more than once that Sansa was just beautiful. I think she wanted to Sansa’s sister in the way Sansa wanted to be Marg’s sister. Maybe another reason why Jeyne didn’t like Arya was because she couldn’t believe she wouldn’t appreciate not only having Sansa for a sister but practicing all the ladylike stuff they were taught...

Poor Jeyne no one deserves what she was meant to suffer. I wonder if she also tried to find something beautiful in Ramsay the way Septa Mordane said with finding beauty in all men.

My impression of Jeyne is that she recognizes Sansa’s natural graciousness and excellence, and rather than outright envying Sansa, believes that by being closer to her, Sansa’s grace will “rub off” on her.

True, which is nice since she really did care about Sansa. She wasn’t like the Tyrells only wanting to get as high in the social ladder as she could get.

Later, Sansa thinks of Jeyne’s interest in Beric: “Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age.” It seems that Jeyne is willfully overlooking the social hierarchy in subconsciously wishing herself a higher position by proxy to Sansa, whereas despite Sansa’s compassion for Jeyne, understands the invisible line between them.

Sansa’s thoughts here remind me of the way Cat knows social boundaries and old families’ expectations where marriage alliances are concerned, and how a Redfort could never marry mya stone. ... Sansa’s remarks on how Lord Beric could never look at someone so beneath himself are so nice and ironic given what some of us hope will happen with Sandor... I think that when Ned falls from grace and his household is being killed the Hound is the one to thrust Jeyne into Sansa’s room... As Jeyne cries and Sansa comforts her, it is nice to see Sansa, though scared herself, trying to put her friend’s worries first. The echoes of the queen she was during the Blackwater are clear here. & i like how she can comfort Jeyne, Sandor, Sweetrobin, Dontos, the ladies during the Blackwater and even Lancel, but Tyrion she just can’t.

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People talk of Sansa as though she were a simple little girl swept in the wind of her surroundings, as though Sansa does nothing extraordinary for someone thusly beaten and imprisoned. Not so. She could have become Jeyne. There is no "rebuilding of Winterfell of snow" for this poor soul.

Indeed. As you noted in your post butterbumps!, the level of abuse that Jeyne suffers is significantly worse than Sansa's, and this has to be taken into account when examining her complete breakdown in the later novels. Still, the examples we have in AGOT position Sansa as the stronger personality, with Jeyne easily succumbing to fits of crying and needing to be comforted by Septa Mordane and Sansa herself. Even though Sansa was arguably naive in comparison to Jeyne's awareness of the true extent of the horror unfolding around them, managing to keep her composure and innate strength (in the face of the slow dissipation of her idealism) is something that sustains her throughout the captivity in KL.

The contrast between the commitment that Sansa maintains to escaping the Lannisters vs. Jeyne's terrified acceptance of her imprisonment also helps to heighten our appreciation of the active role Sansa played in her own liberation. I can't tell you how many times readers have acted as though Littlefinger merely swept in and carried Sansa out himself due to the fact that he was the mastermind behind the plot. Refusing to succumb to her victimization is really what ultimately protected Sansa, and ensured that she escaped the Lannisters with her identity and sanity intact.

It's also interesting to compare the alternate identities that each girl has to adopt to "survive." Ironically, Jeyne who was on the lower social scale becomes the highborn girl, and Sansa falls even lower than her friend in becoming a bastard. However, whilst Sansa's identity affords her some measure of happiness and freedom from daily abuses, Jeyne's misery is only deepened by assuming the persona of the noble Arya Stark. Perhaps we can apply this comparison to the question of female agency within the series, and the oppression inherent in having a claim. We have Lady Hornwood, Alys Karstark and Sansa herself as other examples, but what makes Jeyne's story so incredibly unjust is that she's been forced into being Arya Stark, suffering for a home that isn't even her own.

Sansa is growing increasingly comfortable with Alayne Stone, while Jeyne is trapped within Arya Stark. Like Sansa it's a matter of survival, but there's the sense that it's become now a question of mental stability as well. I don't think we're going to see such a scenario play out with Sansa/Alayne, but Jeyne's fate does help to bring the reality of the dangers into sobering light.

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