From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[brashcandy]

The thread is going wayyy to fast guys!!

*A bit late with your Cersei/Sansa analysis Kitty, but here are my thoughts on what you brought up: Apart from mentioning some of the most memorable advices Cersei gives to Sansa, I just feel it’s so sad that Sansa had not only her golden prince turn on her, but also her role model… I’ve always wondered if Cersei back in the first book never considered that Sansa could be the girl from her prophecy. She never treats her the way she treats Marg. Sure, the latter is older and has the QoT backing her up, while Sansa had no one in the red keep, and she considers Sansa to be more tractable than Marg, and so maybe didn’t pose as much as a threat. Maybe since Sansa does really want Joff at the start, Cersei had less contempt for her up to a point? It would be ironic if Sansa ends up being the younger woman from the prophecy cause it would be someone Cersei has already I think mistakenly discarded. But I wonder if the possibility was ever there..?

If Sansa is indeed the younger, more beautiful Queen/woman to take everything away from Cersei, it would be another example of how Cersei's actions bring the prophecy down on her own head. It's the examples that she shows to Sansa that makes the girl come to oppose and despise her. Sansa chooses to rule through love, and not fear; Cersei runs out during the Blackwater battle, while Sansa stays to comfort the women. Cersei speaks of tearing her hair out if she were to marry Tyrion, but Sansa goes through the ceremony with dignity and still manages to makes her discontent known. At every stage, when Cersei has spoken of tears, despair and futility, Sansa has instead relied on her own instincts and values, and she's proven herself to be stronger and ultimately more humane and beautiful than Cersei could ever be.

[Pod The Impaler]

The Catelyn and Cersei comparisons are interesting ones. A few things about those:

We do not really get much sense of how the Starks raised their children prior to the start of the books. I'm not of the opinion the Starks spoiled their kids, including Sansa. They seemed to be fairly serious about piling responsibility onto them, and though they allowed them some individual leeway, I imagine them as more stern and strict (not Randyll Tarly strict, but within reason). Runaway levels of indulgence do not seem to be the Starks' style (or perhaps not northern style in general). Sansa's dreams in regard to glamourous courtly life all have a southron atmosphere, and considering she is Catelyn's daughter this should be par for the course. Sansa's mother brushing her hair seems more like Catelyn's knowing the importance of hands-on parenting, even if they did have Septas and Maesters (and other servants) to do much of the educating.

Looking at Sansa's personality early in the series, you can see her mother Catalyn is the most important influence with regard to womanhood - a template she tries to live up to, even if she cannot copy it entirely. It's hard to say what Sansa would have turned out like, had she and her mother not been separated. Sansa is very much a romantic dreamer, her mother distinctly less so, but I am not sure if this is truly a different nature, or simply that Catelyn's experience and wisdom has dampened hers.

As far as Cersei goes, Sansa seems like the anti-Cersei. Cersei is often cruel to Sansa verbally, and clearly disdains her. But Cersei when Cersei tries to advise her, she seems to almost try and indoctrinate Sansa into her sort of cynicism / negativity about womanhood. The motivation is so unusual - Cersei does not truly want to help Sansa (Sansa is just a talking womb and a political casino chip to her, someone to be erased as soon as she's no longer useful). So why do any of that when she could just confine her to a room or a cell? It's like Sansa being what she is (innocent, caring, hopeful, compassionate, etc.) offends Cersei, and she feels the need to denounce or debunk it (with advising Sansa as the means to this end). In fact, from her own youth, you see Cersei had girlish fantasies of her own, but below the surface they all seem about having power over others and glory for herself. Cersei may tell herself that young Cersei was once like Sansa, but really that's quite untrue. As such, I do not think Cersei has any direct influence over Sansa. I would say the main lesson Sansa learns from Cersei is the fact that there are women like Cersei in the world.

[butterbumps!]

Sansa’s thoughts here remind me of the way Cat knows social boundaries and old families’ expectations where marriage alliances are concerned, and how a Redfort could never marry mya stone. ... Sansa’s remarks on how Lord Beric could never look at someone so beneath himself are so nice and ironic given what some of us hope will happen with Sandor... I think that when Ned falls from grace and his household is being killed the Hound is the one to thrust Jeyne into Sansa’s room... As Jeyne cries and Sansa comforts her, it is nice to see Sansa, though scared herself, trying to put her friend’s worries first. The echoes of the queen she was during the Blackwater are clear here. & i like how she can comfort Jeyne, Sandor, Sweetrobin, Dontos, the ladies during the Blackwater and even Lancel, but Tyrion she just can’t.

This is exactly what I thought as well- Cat's thoughts upon meeting Mya. I know that this sentiment- that they acknowledge class distinctions- draws a lot of criticism for both Sansa and Cat's characters. As has been pointed out in previous fPtP's, recognizing these boundaries is not necessarily a bad thing. By ignoring birth status, Arya unintentionally led Mycah to his death. What's interesting to me about Sansa's recognition of distinctions is of course that she is now playing the role of someone without the benefit of high status. Given Sansa's knack for understanding the predetermined boundaries of class, as well as her excelling in the highest roles available, I am keen to see in what way she might begin to challenge the boundaries of this system in the future-- I mean, in addition to her friendship(?) with Sandor. I mean to say, that I can see Sansa negotiating with, and consciously undermining class structure in a meaningful way precisely because she "knows the system."

This might be part of why I took interest in Sansa in the first place. Perhaps I put too much stock into the "rules," but I think there's something to be said for knowing how something is "supposed" to work, excelling in that system, and once you've attained a level of reasonable mastery, then rewrite the rules-- sort of like beating them at their own game, but beyond, for example, the path Cersei follows. Where Cersei doesn't innovate (I think she's very caught up in playing according to the status quo), I think Sansa is on track to move well beyond this.

It's also interesting to compare the alternate identities that each girl has to adopt to "survive." Ironically, Jeyne who was on the lower social scale becomes the highborn girl, and Sansa falls even lower than her friend in becoming a bastard. However, whilst Sansa's identity affords her some measure of happiness and freedom from daily abuses, Jeyne's misery is only deepened by assuming the persona of the noble Arya Stark. Perhaps we can apply this comparison to the question of female agency within the series, and the oppression inherent in having a claim. We have Lady Hornwood, Alys Karstark and Sansa herself as other examples, but what makes Jeyne's story so incredibly unjust is that she's been forced into being Arya Stark, suffering for a home that isn't even her own.

Sansa is growing increasingly comfortable with Alayne Stone, while Jeyne is trapped within Arya Stark. Like Sansa it's a matter of survival, but there's the sense that it's become now a question of mental stability as well. I don't think we're going to see such a scenario play out with Sansa/Alayne, but Jeyne's fate does help to bring the reality of the dangers into sobering light.

I agree with everything, but these are so much what I was thinking. Their assumed identities are (almost) perfect inverses, and whereas Alayne's identity affords her (to some degree) a bit of freedom, poor "Arya" is just trapped and suffering.

I was thinking about this- that Jeyne and Sansa's personalities were set forth in the beginning as "clues" to how each might handle adversity. I don't think that Jeyne could have handled Sansa's precise trials any better than what she'd actually gone through. Had Sansa not been so controlled (and apparently 'ladylike" to watch gore with stoic fascination), I'm inclined to believe that her abuse would have been much crueler. What was required for survival in KL was to be a "lady;" Jeyne does not have Sansa's natural charm, compassion, grace, will and good sense, and I really think that if she were in Sansa's position, her mental deterioration would probably be at the same level it is anyway. (I'm operating under the premise that Sansa avoided many more beatings and possibly other abuse because of her qualities; I don't believe Jeyne would have been able to do so.) In short, I don't believe that nearly any other young lady we've met could have come out of KL the way Sansa did (maybe young Cat :cool4:)

[Mortal Engines]

Hey everyone!

First off! Great post! :bowdown:

Here’s some thoughts on Jeyne Poole. I know that the comparative focus has been on role models, that is, older or otherwise more “powerful”/ “authoritatively positioned” women. Jeyne is a bit different in her role to Sansa, in my opinion. They’re peers in terms of age, but in this relationship, Sansa is in the more “powerful” role given their stations, as well as a more “authoritative” one based on Jeyne’s apparent reverence for Sansa’s perceived excellence at studies and natural grace. To this end, I would call Sansa Jeyne’s role model.

Agreed, in fact, interestingly enough, Jeyne is one of the few, if not the only character that Sansa is able to exercise full control/agency over, I'm not sure if there is another character in the entire series that Sansa has so much control over, especially so relatively early on when Sansa has yet 'proved' that she deserves any power, as she later does to some extent as Alayne Stone (obviously by that point she's lost alot of her naive too which helps).

On a literary register, I think of Jeyne as a foil for Sansa. Both begin at relatively the same “point A,” lose their families, are imprisoned, undergo a series of physical and mental abuses, and are then coerced into assuming new identities as pawns for someone else’s game. (As a side note, even though Jeyne becomes “Arya Stark,” I don’t think the Jeyne-Arya symmetry is nearly as poignant as the Jeyne-Sansa parallel.) What’s fascinating to me is that while their arcs contain a fairly symmetrical “action” trajectory, the evolution of the two characters could not be more different. Sansa emerges from her trials in Kings Landing with hope, compassion, stronger self-control and a sense of self, whereas Jeyne is broken by her abuse, no longer believing herself an agent, without any fight left in her, nor hope for a better life; she is resigned to a life of misery.

Quick Caveat: I hate the thought of quantifying levels of abuse; with that said, I feel I must express that I think Jeyne’s arc of abuse reached a higher and more invasive degree of physical, sexual and psychological depravity than Sansa’s did, both during and after KL. I bring this up only to recognize that while their trials have been quite similar, the unfathomably disgusting abuse that Jeyne endured may have broken even the hardiest spirit, and in fairness to Jeyne’s breakdown, I wanted to acknowledge this nuance since I’m “foiling” them.

Again, I agree. Though I'd like to point out that I do think there is a reason behind Jeyne receiving such harsh treatment, it could be designed to highlight how unfair Westeros hierarchy is and to point out to the reader that while Sansa is currently enjoying the new found 'freedom' as Alayne Stone, there is still a danger behind her loss of hierarchical status. If Sansa was Alayne Stone during her time at KL or indeed during most of her journey, she could have very well become Jeyne Poole version 2. So while, yes, Alayne Stone has her benefits, Jeyne Poole's story can serve as a reminder to the reader that the name 'Sansa Stark' was the one thing that saved Sansa from a similar fate and so the name shouldn't be forgotten too quickly (by either Sansa or the reader).

Sewing Instruction: Sansa as role model

The first we see of Jeyne is through Arya’s POV, where they along with Beth, Myrcella and Sansa are receiving sewing instruction at Winterfell. During this interaction, the authority figure, Septa Mordane, swoons over both Sansa and Myrcella, and unsurprisingly, Beth and Jeyne fawn over them as well. Interestingly, even though Myrcella is the “most important” lady there, Arya’s observations suggest that Sansa is actually the most graceful and “noble” of the girls. When Arya asks what the girls are talking about, Jeyne is catty, trying to exclude Arya. Sansa, however, graciously opens the conversation to include Arya.

I agree, Sansa was definitely the center of attention despite Myrcella's presence, because comparatively Sansa definitely has much more 'graceful airs' at this point than Myrcella, not that it can be helped, Myrcella is much younger (and when you've got a mother like Cersei... :frown5: ). I do think that Jeyne wasn't just catty to highlight the difference between the sisters, I think she was in part because she thought that would please Sansa, Jeyne is very much at this point all about pleasing Sansa, seeing as Sansa often talks about her sister in a negative way, Jeyne obviously thought that by being catty to Arya she would 'score points' with Sansa.

My impression of Jeyne is that she recognizes Sansa’s natural graciousness and excellence, and rather than outright envying Sansa, believes that by being closer to her, Sansa’s grace will “rub off” on her. She seems keen to reinforce their closeness, and as an extension of that, to highlight the differences between the sisters, perhaps to maintain a kind of fantasy that she and Sansa are social equals. As part of this cattiness, we learn that Jeyne coined the insult “Arya Horseface.”

Again I feel the "Arya Horseface" thing was simply to gain points with Sansa, similar to how a bully's friends would often say remakes to the bullied to score points with the 'lead bully' as it were.

I think it's interesting to note that at this point, Jeyne is all about trying to emulate and copy Sansa, like you said she believes that Sansa will rub off on her but I also think she does try to take note of how Sansa behaves and copies her. Maybe that is also why she is catty to Arya, it is not as if Sansa has never acted this way to Arya. The difference is that Sansa KNOWS when this behavior is appropriate (in private) whereas Jeyne does not, this is because, as I said, she is too busy trying to copy Sansa who she perceives as the perfect lady then understand what being a lady is (and further more to understand who Jeyne Poole is). I bought up this aspect of 'copying' Sansa because it does serve as an interesting parallel to what happens later, where Jeyne ends up having to become (or 'copy') 'Arya' when most of her life she has been trying to be 'Sansa'. I always found that quite ironic

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Later, Sansa thinks of Jeyne’s interest in Beric: “Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age.” It seems that Jeyne is willfully overlooking the social hierarchy in subconsciously wishing herself a higher position by proxy to Sansa, whereas despite Sansa’s compassion for Jeyne, understands the invisible line between them.

This is a great moment in GOT for me because it highlights something that I always found very interesting. Here, we see that Sansa understands and knows who Jeyne Poole really is. She is Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter. It seems such an obvious thing (of course she would know who Jeyne Poole is!) but it’s something I think Jeyne Poole herself never actually realizes. She constantly seems to think that she is Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark's friend and as such doesn't really have her own personality or identity. It’s why we often find throughout the book, that it is Jeyne that breaks down and can't handle things rather than Sansa, because Sansa knows who she is, whereas Jeyne lacks this same confidence and it shows. It’s also why she failed in every aspect of being a Lady, she was too busy trying to be Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark’s friend by copying Sansa (badly) rather than being Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter, which would have given her the necessary confidence in herself to be more lady like.

It is also why she believes silly things like being able to marry Lord Beric.

Capture: Sansa the “mother”

The guards locked Sansa and Jeyne together in Sansa’s chambers after Ned revealed his plans to Cersei. Sansa calls her “useless,” as all she does is cry and sob about her father. Sansa tries to cheer Jeyne by saying that she will put in a request to let Jeyne see her father, but it causes Jeyne to cry that much harder. Sansa thinks to herself that Jeyne is “such a child,” but I wondered if it was perhaps Sansa who might have been naïve in this instance rather than Jeyne. Jeyne was confined after Sansa, and I think that Jeyne may have already been aware of the fate of her father. Is the look she gives Sansa here the first indication of resentment over her lower status, which is the root of why her father was killed while Sansa’s Lord father was not?

Again this is another interesting moment, like you said, in this moment, it’s the one time that Jeyne seems to be more informative/aware than Sansa does. In an interesting parallel to the scene above, it is here that Jeyne Poole finally realizes that she is Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter (which in this moment puts her in the lesser position). Whereas Sansa is seeing her as Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark's friend, and hence she naively believes that if she asks to let Jeyne see her father it would happen (because why not! She's Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark's friend! Get it?).

The look of resentment might not just be because of the lower status, it could be because after all these years Jeyne has finally realized that she can never be Sansa Stark, no matter how hard she tries and she will forever be Jeyne Poole the steward's daughter, I think this actually could be the first moment of true envy from Jeyne. Before she thought that Sansa could rub off on her and that she could become Sansa, this was the moment she realized that could never happen and so she actually does become envious of Sansa.

New Identity: bowed, bent, broken?

After their shared imprisonment, we know that Jeyne is taken by Littlefinger and trained in one of his brothels, while Sansa endures her trials in KL. She is married against her will to Ramsay as Arya Stark. During the bedding, Theon notes the spiderweb of scars across her back, suggesting that she has undergone severe physical abuse during her “training” in KL. Her abuse continues at the hands of Ramsay, as the Lords can hear her nightly sobs, and Theon observes that she is covered with wounds and bruises when he comes to rescue her at the end of DwD. Before the rescue, she comes close to confiding in Theon of their past identities, but Theon tells her that she must “know her name:” Arya.

Again, this is a reoccurring theme for Jeyne. Knowing who she is. Most of her life, she thought herself as Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark's friend, then she realizes she is Jeyne Poole, steward's daughter but now she has been broken to become Arya Stark (which is funny because Arya was definitely someone she would abhor in becoming when she was younger/naive). Once more, her real identity of Jeyne Poole, steward's daughter is lost, which again results in bad consequences for her. When she is not herself, Jeyne is always in the weaker position (though obviously in this case it's not really her fault :crying: ).

Notably, when Theon and the Spearwives come to take her away, she refuses, believing it is a trick and that Ramsay will beat her more thoroughly if she trusts them: “I’m a good girl. They trained me.” Heartbreaking. Where Sansa could still trust enough to put faith in the Tyrells’ and Dontos spiriting her away, Jeyne is so broken that she won’t come by her own volition, even after Theon tries (unsuccessfully) to get her to say her name: Jeyne. She can’t bring herself to walk out of Winterfell unsupported, and is such an emotional wreck that she screams and blows their cover right before they reach freedom.

By this point, we have the complete (and tragic) destruction of Jeyne, she can never be Jeyne Poole, the steward's daughter again. She will either remain as the fake Arya Stark for the rest of her life (even though she is 'rescued) or become Jeyne Poole the broken girl.

Again it's a nice parallel to Sansa, who basically has the reverse. She goes from a (perceived) lesser position of Sansa Stark with no agency/freedom and becomes Alayne Stone with more agency and freedom. I think Jeyne Poole serves as a warning though, even though being Alayne Stone seems nice (just like Jeyne Poole, friend of Sansa Stark seemed nice) never forget Sansa Stark because you'll probably need her in the future (I touched on this above).

People talk of Sansa as though she were a simple little girl swept in the wind of her surroundings, as though Sansa does nothing extraordinary for someone thusly beaten and imprisoned. Not so. She could have become Jeyne. There is no "rebuilding of Winterfell of snow" for this poor soul.

The bolded bit is exactly my point, which is why I think it’s paramount that the reader (and Sansa) should acknowledge that there is a power to being Sansa Stark, for Alayne Stone could have become Jeyne Poole the broken girl but Sansa Stark could not.

[A...]

The bolded bit is exactly my point, which is why I think it’s paramount that the reader (and Sansa) should acknowledge that there is a power to being Sansa Stark, for Alayne Stone could have become Jeyne Poole the broken girl but Sansa Stark could not.

Congratulations on another mega-post Mortal Engines :) I agree with what you said, and just wanted to add a little note on how the basic personality traits of both characters, which led them to assume the social standing they did in their childhood social circle, ended up being what ultimately made their respective ordeals even worse - Jeyne desperately needing somebody to 'follow', and even when that person was Ramsay, refusing to escape because she in fact needed that leader figure too much to break free and Sansa wanting to be queen and 'lead', which led her into all kinds of trouble with Joff/Cersei. These traits seemed so intrinsic to the characters that I somehow got the feeling while reading that this was supposed to lead to some basic moral lesson on how 'to be able to lead you have to learn how to follow' and vice versa but it kinda just seemed like they were being punished for who they were... :(

[Mortal Engines]

Congratulations on another mega-post Mortal Engines :)

:blushing: Thank you! It's a weekend so I have time now :drunk:

I agree with what you said, and just wanted to add a little note on how the basic personality traits of both characters, which led them to assume the social standing they did in their childhood social circle, ended up being what ultimately made their respective ordeals even worse - Jeyne desperately needing somebody to 'follow', and even when that person was Ramsay, refusing to escape because she in fact needed that leader figure too much to break free and Sansa wanting to be queen and 'lead', which led her into all kinds of trouble with Joff/Cersei. These traits seemed so intrinsic to the characters that I somehow got the feeling while reading that this was supposed to lead to some basic moral lesson on how 'to be able to lead you have to learn how to follow' and vice versa but it kinda just seemed like they were being punished for who they were... :(

I agree, especially with Jeyne needing somebody to 'follow'. I chalk this up to Jeyne not really knowing who Jeyne is and so feeling to need to follow others (like Sansa) so they can give her a purpose/define Jeyne for her.

The only bit I don't agree with is in bold. It wasn't these traits that gave them their social status in their circle, it's their heritage/family that did so, if anything these traits stem from those origins. If Jeyne was say, a highborn lady (maybe a Manderly or Umber, even a Karstark) rather than a steward's daughter, I highly doubt she would of been as much as 'follower' as she was. There is a certain confidence that is bestowed upon people of a certain house/family, we see it all the time in ASOIAF.

[A...]

:blushing: Thank you! It's a weekend so I have time now :drunk:

I agree, especially with Jeyne needing somebody to 'follow'. I chalk this up to Jeyne not really knowing who Jeyne is and so feeling to need to follow others (like Sansa) so they can give her a purpose/define Jeyne for her.

The only bit I don't agree with is in bold. It wasn't these traits that gave them their social status in their circle, it's their heritage/family that did so, if anything these traits stem from those origins. If Jeyne was say, a highborn lady (maybe a Manderly or Umber, even a Karstark) rather than a steward's daughter, I highly doubt she would of been as much as 'follower' as she was. There is a certain confidence that is bestowed upon people of a certain house/family, we see it all the time in ASOIAF.

Ture, but I do believe Sansa's leadership qualities played a big part here too. I mean lots of highborn kids don't end up being popular leaders of cliques/evincing natural leadership qualities (Samwell/Arya/Ned/Doran - at least in comparison with Oberyn/Stannis/Lysa/Arianne - at least in comparison with the Sand Snakes, since they seem more equals) Granted, some of these are younger kids and some are boys but the principle is similar.

Sansa is like a people-magnet and we see this straightaway from day 1. This is why I think it curious that, while the characters in the novels gravitate towards he naturally (see: Jeyne/Sandor/Sweetrobin/Lothor/Littlefinger (70% creepy to about 30% not, but it's still gravitating)/Randa(despite LF-related motives)/+ animals) the readers simply don't, generally speaking, do so. I really cannot understand this, one could say it's due to a different 'time frame' but most of the characters I mentioned above seem to be mostly concerned with subverting the stereotypes of the 'time frame' : LF the 'self-made man', Sandor 'no-true-knights' Clegane, Randa 'I'm-a-strong-independent-woman' Royce, Sweetrobin 'I-breastfeed-when-most-boys-my-age-are-squires' Arryn? (Wow, I don't think I ever really noticed how many subverted stereotypes this girl is presented with every day! Taking down stereotypes is one of the main aims of ASOIAF, I know, but I dot think anybody meets with quite as many cases of this as Sansa - more and more keep coming to mind as I write!) This is something I will have to ponder on, and maybe post about later...

[Mortal Engines]

Ture, but I do believe Sansa's leadership qualities played a big part here too. I mean lots of highborn kids don't end up being popular leaders of cliques/evincing natural leadership qualities (Samwell/Arya/Ned/Doran - at least in comparison with Oberyn/Stannis/Lysa/Arianne - at least in comparison with the Sand Snakes, since they seem more equals) Granted, some of these are younger kids and some are boys but the principle is similar.

No, no, I do understand what you mean and I largely agreed with you. I just being picky really, in terms of the social group Sansa had formed in Winterfell, she was head of it because ultimately she was a Stark and so it was natural that she was so. Just like it is 'natural' that Myrcella should be the center of the sewing group (though she's not entirely but you get what I mean). Jeyne's social status derives from her name rather than her traits in this scenario. I didn't mean to say that all highborn kids end up was natural leadership skills nor that all lead cliques but in the case of Sansa, I would say that it was more her name then anything at that point in the story. Also in terms of confidence the only one of your examples who doesn't have any confidence is Samwell and that derives from the abuse he received from his father if anything, the rest still have a degree of confidence to them, especially Arya who is quite assertive. They're not natural leaders, but that's not what I said, I said Highborns tend to be confident, it comes with the social status they are born into.

Sansa is like a people-magnet and we see this straightaway from day 1. This is why I think it curious that, while the characters in the novels gravitate towards he naturally (see: Jeyne/Sandor/Sweetrobin/Lothor/Littlefinger (70% creepy to about 30% not, but it's still gravitating)/Randa(despite LF-related motives)/+ animals) the readers simply don't, generally speaking, do so. I really cannot understand this, one could say it's due to a different 'time frame' but most of the characters I mentioned above seem to be mostly concerned with subverting the stereotypes of the 'time frame' : LF the 'self-made man', Sandor 'no-true-knights' Clegane, Randa 'I'm-a-strong-independent-woman' Royce, Sweetrobin 'I-breastfeed-when-most-boys-my-age-are-squires' Arryn? (Wow, I don't think I ever really noticed how many subverted stereotypes this girl is presented with every day! Taking down stereotypes is one of the main aims of ASOIAF, I know, but I dot think anybody meets with quite as many cases of this as Sansa - more and more keep coming to mind as I write!) This is something I will have to ponder on, and maybe post about later...

I don't disagree that people gravitate towards Sansa, though in some part its because she has something to offer each of them, more often then not people have become close to her as they see her as a means to further themselves (e.g Tyrells). Not everyone (Sweetrobin for instance is a different case) but quite alot of people do.

I do think Sansa has natural leader skills though, that I won't dispute.

[A...]

No, no, I do understand what you mean and I largely agreed with you. I just being picky really, in terms of the social group Sansa had formed in Winterfell, she was head of it because ultimately she was a Stark and so it was natural that she was so. Just like it is 'natural' that Myrcella should be the center of the sewing group (though she's not entirely but you get what I mean). Jeyne's social status derives from her name rather than her traits in this scenario. I didn't mean to say that all highborn kids end up was natural leadership skills nor that all lead cliques but in the case of Sansa, I would say that it was more her name then anything at that point in the story. Also in terms of confidence the only one of your examples who doesn't have any confidence is Samwell and that derives from the abuse he received from his father if anything, the rest still have a degree of confidence to them, especially Arya who is quite assertive. They're not natural leaders, but that's not what I said, I said Highborns tend to be confident, it comes with the social status they are born into.

Ok, I see what you're getting at here :)

[Mortal Engines]

On the topic of Cat/Cersei

The Catelyn and Cersei comparisons are interesting ones. A few things about those:

We do not really get much sense of how the Starks raised their children prior to the start of the books. I'm not of the opinion the Starks spoiled their kids, including Sansa. They seemed to be fairly serious about piling responsibility onto them, and though they allowed them some individual leeway, I imagine them as more stern and strict (not Randyll Tarly strict, but within reason). Runaway levels of indulgence do not seem to be the Starks' style (or perhaps not northern style in general). Sansa's dreams in regard to glamourous courtly life all have a southron atmosphere, and considering she is Catelyn's daughter this should be par for the course. Sansa's mother brushing her hair seems more like Catelyn's knowing the importance of hands-on parenting, even if they did have Septas and Maesters (and other servants) to do much of the educating.

I disagree somewhat. I do think the Stark parents were 'stern' at the beginning of their parenting, with Robb, Jon and Sansa (we can see that there must of been some element of discipline because all 3 have a degree of it) but I think as time went on and they had more children (Arya, Bran and Rickon) they became more lenient.

The same happens in real life, using my own life as an example, my mother was extremely strict on my eldest brother (her first kid) equally so with my middle brother but when it came to me, the youngest, she was much more lenient, because by that point (6 years later from my middle brother) she had become use to parenting and thus more lenient (and probably too tired of playing strict mummy)

This is why we see that Arya, Bran and Rickon are a bit more on the 'wild side', with Bran being able to use WF as a jungle gym, Arya running around getting into fights and Rickon being well, Rickon (we can see him becoming more and more wild). It's also why Ned is quite soft with Arya (though that could be the Lyanna similarity playing in as well) despite all of her trouble making.

Looking at Sansa's personality early in the series, you can see her mother Catalyn is the most important influence with regard to womanhood - a template she tries to live up to, even if she cannot copy it entirely. It's hard to say what Sansa would have turned out like, had she and her mother not been separated. Sansa is very much a romantic dreamer, her mother distinctly less so, but I am not sure if this is truly a different nature, or simply that Catelyn's experience and wisdom has dampened hers.

I'm not sure if Catelyn is the biggest influence. I think Cat is definitely somewhat of a influence (especially in regards to being ladylike and a general more 'southern' attitude) and I do agree that Sansa wants to be like her to some degree but I do think there is an important separator between the two. Another influence on equal par to Cat and that is Septa Mordane. It is the Septa I believe that gave Sansa her naive/softer edge, Cat is often described as fierce in her youth (and present), whereas Lysa is more the 'dreamer' sister.

So in terms of why Sansa is as she is at the start of the books, it’s a mix of Cat and Septa Mordane, she gets her grace and leadership abilities from her mother but it’s the Septa that feeds her the naive, softer Sansa, this is later pretty much destroyed after the events in KL.

That's not to say that the Septa didn't teach Sansa anything good, in fact I think the most important thing that the Septa (somewhat) pushed into Sansa's skull is to think with your head not your heart. The Septa is often the one who pushes Sansa to keep her emotions in check - something Cat fails to do herself (Cat definitely thinks more with her heart then her head). This is why Sansa will be a far better player of the game then her mother was. She might not be as fierce as Cat but as both Cat and Cersei show 'fierceness' doesn't win you the game and often is a hindrance rather than a help.

These would be the attributes I would say that Sansa got from Cat:

• Kindness, compassion
  
• Lady-like behaviour
  
• Leadership
  

As far as Cersei goes, Sansa seems like the anti-Cersei. Cersei is often cruel to Sansa verbally, and clearly disdains her.

Agreed, though I think Cersei doesn't disdain Sansa, I think she's more envious than anything (she similarly envious of Margaery) as both are young, beautiful yet have family/people that seemingly care about them. Cersei constantly sees herself as alone in this world (she even holds disdain for Jaime for getting to be the golden boy of the family).

But Cersei when Cersei tries to advise her, she seems to almost try and indoctrinate Sansa into her sort of cynicism / negativity about womanhood. The motivation is so unusual - Cersei does not truly want to help Sansa (Sansa is just a talking womb and a political casino chip to her, someone to be erased as soon as she's no longer useful). So why do any of that when she could just confine her to a room or a cell?

I think Cersei just needs someone to confide to, she's lonely and often has thoughts she can't really share with anyone else. Sansa is a prime tool to fit this purpose, a woman like Cersei but one that is completely under her control and will and is likely to be gotten rid of soon (in some way). She sees Sansa as too weak (which is brilliant trickery by Sansa) and stupid to really make use of what Cersei says and use it against her, which is what Cersei fears other people will do if she ever spoke to them like she does Sansa. She doesn't want to indoctrinate Sansa (what would be the point? Sansa is just a tool and completely Cersei's, she doesn't need to trick her) she simply letting her true thoughts out.

There is definitely an element of damping Sansa's morale and spirit in what Cersei says to her though, I do think that while alot of what Cersei says to her is what she truly thinks/believes, Cersei does often twist it in such a way to crush Sansa's spirits, dreams and 'keep her down'. This tactic is often used against hostages/kidnapped people in order to stop them ever getting ideas of escaping or leaving.

It's like Sansa being what she is (innocent, caring, hopeful, compassionate, etc.) offends Cersei, and she feels the need to denounce or debunk it (with advising Sansa as the means to this end).

I'm not quite sure on this, Sansa does well to hide her real traits from Cersei, while at the beginning Cersei might of seen some of them, later on she definitely couldn't (Sansa had her game face on by then), her denouncing and debunking is Cersei's own actual beliefs and thoughts. Its more Margaery that Cersei really hates than Sansa when it comes to traits.

In fact, from her own youth, you see Cersei had girlish fantasies of her own, but below the surface they all seem about having power over others and glory for herself. Cersei may tell herself that young Cersei was once like Sansa, but really that's quite untrue. As such, I do not think Cersei has any direct influence over Sansa. I would say the main lesson Sansa learns from Cersei is the fact that there are women like Cersei in the world.

Cersei was nothing like Sansa when she was younger, other than both being beautiful and somewhat wishful. Cersei was brought down to earth pretty quickly when she was young by her father, so while Cersei might think she was like Sansa when she was younger, we the reader know it’s not true. I mean wasn't it suggested that Cersei killed her friend when she was young?!

[A...]

I'm not sure if Catelyn is the biggest influence. I think Cat is definitely somewhat of a influence (especially in regards to being ladylike and a general more 'southern' attitude) and I do agree that Sansa wants to be like her to some degree but I do think there is an important separator between the two. Another influence on equal par to Cat and that is Septa Mordane. It is the Septa I believe that gave Sansa her naive/softer edge, Cat is often described as fierce in her youth (and present), whereas Lysa is more the 'dreamer' sister.

Good point about the dreamy sister vs the down to earth sister, but I really have to disagree about Septa Mordane - the two major lessons she teaches Sansa are:

1) Use your curtesy as armour - armour suggests a situation of danger, where one must protect oneself from the onslaught of enemies, so I'm guessing the Septa was preparing her for the hardships of life as a lady (as she understood it) with this advice, more than anything. (Turned out she was spot on!)

2) Be able to find the beauty in any man (or something down those lines, I forget the exact quote) - also a practical lesson, considering the Septa fully expected Sansa to have to marry for political reasons, which gave her reason to suspect she might need to be trained to find the beauty in the man Ned & Co. chose for her when he otherwise would not perhaps have been her first choice (although we're fairly sure the Septa was pretty inexperienced when it came to men, so her opinion is not very valid)

All in all though, I do believe this backs her trying to give Sansa a practical-ish education for a Westerosi highborn lady.

As for Sansa's love of song and romance - I think this was a fascination shared and encouraged by Jeyne Poole, primarily. Admittely, other than both girls' ages and romantic inclinations (Loras/Beric) the only reasoning I have to back the theory of Jeyne introducing/encouraging Sansa into an interest in songs and romance is as follows:

1) Songs and Romances are commonly about ladies/princesses

2) Jeyne clearly has major wannabe issues concerning the above

3) Sansa is the above already, and as far as I know no other young Westerosi highborn girls are as obsessed with romance as Sansa. Okay, maybe Brienne as a young girl, but Brienne has a good reason to long to be like the heroines of the songs - she is not the most physically attractive of girls - so we have the wannabe aspect again. Since Sansa basically is a romantic heroine all by herself, beautiful and highborn, I don't see how she should independently have taken to these stories and songs when she knows she and her like are the ones they are about - therefore she doesn't really need them to imagine what such a life is like since she already has it. And also has firsthand experience of how other beautiful/highborn/lady/princess types behave since she comes into contact with them on a more regular basis (Cat? Northern nobility? Stories about Lyanna? Question here - how much does Sansa actually know about her aunt and how romantic/songlike her story supposedly was?)

Of course, all this is just me trying to understand the catalyst for Sansa's love of romance/song - I think it's pretty obvious why (when introduced to it properly) the romantic ideas would take seed in a personality like Sansa's.

That's not to say that the Septa didn't teach Sansa anything good, in fact I think the most important thing that the Septa (somewhat) pushed into Sansa's skull is to think with your head not your heart. The Septa is often the one who pushes Sansa to keep her emotions in check - something Cat fails to do herself (Cat definitely thinks more with her heart then her head). This is why Sansa will be a far better player of the game then her mother was. She might not be as fierce as Cat but as both Cat and Cersei show 'fierceness' doesn't win you the game and often is a hindrance rather than a help.

All excellent points.

I mean wasn't it suggested that Cersei killed her friend when she was young?!

I'm curious - do we have actual proof of this, or just assume it because Cersei is an 'evil' antagonist? Imho it would go against everything Cersei wanted/needed at that point to fulfil a prophecy of a scary woman, who had made equally scary prophecies about herself. If she had wanted agency, she could just have offed Melara the next day - thus proved that Maggy could be wrong and freed herself from years and years of pain and paranoia. Her killing Melara THAT EVENING makes no sense to me at all.

[brashcandy]

Again, this is a reoccurring theme for Jeyne. Knowing who she is. Most of her life, she thought herself as Jeyne Poole, Sansa Stark's friend, then she realizes she is Jeyne Poole, steward's daughter but now she has been broken to become Arya Stark (which is funny because Arya was definitely someone she would abhor in becoming when she was younger/naive). Once more, her real identity of Jeyne Poole, steward's daughter is lost, which again results in bad consequences for her. When she is not herself, Jeyne is always in the weaker position (though obviously in this case it's not really her fault :crying: ).

Great post :) It's interesting and ironic as you noted that Jeyne now has to become Arya Stark after trying to emulate and identifying with Sansa for all those years. This highlights an important point concerning being true to one's self and having a strong sense of identity. Arya and Sansa are very very different, and readers often critique Sansa's "passivity" in contrast to Arya's "activity" but what this criticism is failing to consider is that both sisters are being faithful to their unique sensibilities and personalities, and it's because of this solid sense of self that they are able to survive their respective trials. Sansa's courtesy armour comes naturally to her, as does Arya's reliance on physical fighting, but Jeyne exists in a kind of no man's land, where she has neither the confidence to assume Sansa's courtesy armour nor the ability to wield Arya's force. This results in pitiful attempts to simply repeat to others that she is Arya and doing her duty, being the "good girl" - without actually being able to draw on the real strengths of either Sansa or Arya. In fact, Jeyne's attempt to masquerade as Arya, while performing as a watered down version of Sansa, illustrates perfectly the disharmony and disaster that would result if either sister would try to embody the next. We say it all the time, but had Sansa and Arya switched places, they would not have survived. Jeyne's tragedy is that she never appreciated herself as the steward's daughter, and the mental breakdown is symptomatic of the impossibilty of having to be the other, when the self has never been fully realised.

[David Selig]

I wouldn't say Catelyn was lenient as a parent, though it's hard to tell because we get very little info about it. For example, when Arya run away from the embroidery lesson in her first PoV, the chapter ended with "It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn’t Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.".

On the other hand, Ned showed almost implausible amount of leniency at times - like when he told Bran "Oh, well, since you continue to climb anyway against my orders, go for it, just make sure your mother doesn't see you" or when he found Syrio for Arya against all conventions of the Westerosi society.

That's not to say that the Septa didn't teach Sansa anything good, in fact I think the most important thing that the Septa (somewhat) pushed into Sansa's skull is to think with your head not your heart.

You really think so? IMO the Septa taught Sansa mostly to obey her father and husband without thinking.

The Septa is often the one who pushes Sansa to keep her emotions in check - something Cat fails to do herself (Cat definitely thinks more with her heart then her head). This is why Sansa will be a far better player of the game then her mother was. She might not be as fierce as Cat but as both Cat and Cersei show 'fierceness' doesn't win you the game and often is a hindrance rather than a help.

I disagree that Cat "thinks more with her heart then her head", but this is a topic for another thread. The relevant thing is that Catelyn certainly knew the importance of keeping her emotions in check when necessary and putting up appearances for political purposes. She even gave Robb advice along those lines a few times. We know that Catelyn was Sansa's role model for being a strong lady which for Sansa includes being calm and in control of her emotions (for example at the Hand's tourney when Sansa reflected about this when she saw that squire being killed).

[Mortal Engines]

Good point about the dreamy sister vs the down to earth sister, but I really have to disagree about Septa Mordane - the two major lessons she teaches Sansa are:

1) Use your curtesy as armour - armour suggests a situation of danger, where one must protect oneself from the onslaught of enemies, so I'm guessing the Septa was preparing her for the hardships of life as a lady (as she understood it) with this advice, more than anything. (Turned out she was spot on!)

I've got to respectfully disagree. :unsure:

I agree that Mordane taught the whole curtsey armour thing, I was suggesting that when I spoke about keeping her emotions in check but you're spot on with this point.

2) Be able to find the beauty in any man (or something down those lines, I forget the exact quote) - also a practical lesson, considering the Septa fully expected Sansa to have to marry for political reasons, which gave her reason to suspect she might need to be trained to find the beauty in the man Ned & Co. chose for her when he otherwise would not perhaps have been her first choice (although we're fairly sure the Septa was pretty inexperienced when it came to men, so her opinion is not very valid)

I don't remember this at all, you could be right but I'm doubting it. Even so there was no reason to believe that Sansa would be married off to a great looking guy, look at the current eligible men in Westeros around the time of GoT, most of them look pretty decent! I'm not sure if this happened, you could prove me wrong though!

All in all though, I do believe this backs her trying to give Sansa a practical-ish education for a Westerosi highborn lady.

As for Sansa's love of song and romance - I think this was a fascination shared and encouraged by Jeyne Poole, primarily. Admittely, other than both girls' ages and romantic inclinations (Loras/Beric) the only reasoning I have to back the theory of Jeyne introducing/encouraging Sansa into an interest in songs and romance is as follows:

1) Songs and Romances are commonly about ladies/princesses

2) Jeyne clearly has major wannabe issues concerning the above

I find it strange that after we spoke of Jeyne being a 'follower' you then suggest that it's Jeyne that got Sansa into romance and songs? I would say it was most certainly the other way around or, more likely that both received it as both were taught by Septa Mordane. Jeyne doesn't seem to have her own unique personality/mindset to actively change Sansa in anyway, it seems to me most things Jeyne would like are simply copying what Sansa likes as we discussed extensively before.

Also in terms of songs and romances, who would of taught these to the girls? This is Septa Mordane's job. if I remember right, it was part of Mordane's job to teach history to the kids (or atleast Sansa and Arya), part of this would be the songs and romances. You could argue in part it could be old nan, but from Bran's pov we can see that Old nan tends to be rather realistic with her tales.

3) Sansa is the above already, and as far as I know no other young Westerosi highborn girls are as obsessed with romance as Sansa. Okay, maybe Brienne as a young girl, but Brienne has a good reason to long to be like the heroines of the songs - she is not the most physically attractive of girls - so we have the wannabe aspect again. Since Sansa basically is a romantic heroine all by herself, beautiful and highborn, I don't see how she should independently have taken to these stories and songs when she knows she and her like are the ones they are about - therefore she doesn't really need them to imagine what such a life is like since she already has it. And also has firsthand experience of how other beautiful/highborn/lady/princess types behave since she comes into contact with them on a more regular basis (Cat? Northern nobility? Stories about Lyanna? Question here - how much does Sansa actually know about her aunt and how romantic/songlike her story supposedly was?)

Brienne is an interesting story as her own seeming obsession with songs and knighthood also sprang from her Septa, but that was because her Septa was pointing out (rather cruelly) that these are things that Brienne could never be due to her appearance and so instead of idolizing the princess/females in the tales and wanting to be them, she idolized the knights as she'd been condition to believe she could never be a lady (and if you can't be a lady then you can be a knight!).

The rest of what you said pulls some important questions, but the main reason I could see Sansa falling for these tales is at the point her life was no where near the level of the songs. She may live the life of a Lady but she had yet to marry and find her prince, so that's why she could still wish for a life from the songs, she hadn't quite gotten it yet.

All excellent points.

I'm curious - do we have actual proof of this, or just assume it because Cersei is an 'evil' antagonist? Imho it would go against everything Cersei wanted/needed at that point to fulfil a prophecy of a scary woman, who had made equally scary prophecies about herself. If she had wanted agency, she could just have offed Melara the next day - thus proved that Maggy could be wrong and freed herself from years and years of pain and paranoia. Her killing Melara THAT EVENING makes no sense to me at all.

It's assumed due to the wording of the prophecy I think:

Maggy:"Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

Obviously Maggy is referring to death, but interesting that she calls death a 'she' rather than the usual 'he' and that death is very close (almost so that you could smell it's breath). This is what makes people think it was Cersei.

I'm not sure if Cersei was in the room when Maggy told that bit (or if she had already left), if she was there then I agree it would of been strange for her to kill Melara otherwise, it makes sense. Especially since Melara was pinning her hopes on marrying Jaime, who as we know Cersei was bonking at this time.

I wouldn't say Catelyn was lenient as a parent, though it's hard to tell because we get very little info about it. For example, when Arya run away from the embroidery lesson in her first PoV, the chapter ended with "It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn’t Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.".

On he other hand, Ned showed almost implausible leniency at times - like when he told Bran "Oh, well, since you continue to climb anyway against my orders, go for it, just make sure your mother doesn't see you" or when he found Syrio for Arya against all conventions of the Westerosi society.

You might be right on that one, at the end of the day though, we don't really have enough info like you said.

You really think so? IMO the Septa taught Sansa mostly to obey her father and husband without thinking.

On the surface she did but what about when it doesn't concern her husband or her father? Also how many time were you told as a kid "listen to your parents!"? Its the same thing, you're always going to be told in life that your betters always knows what's right.

Its not like the Septa actually expected her to never think unless someone told her to. This ties in with the curtsey armour. The thing Septa was basically saying to Sansa is, keep your thoughts to your self which and thus think with your head and not your heart, don't just blurt things out (like Arya always does). Why else would the Septa congratulate Sansa on not acting emotionally during the Tourney (while Jeyne did), it was because she kept her emotions in check, like any 'good lady' would.

I disagree that Cat "thinks more with her heart then her head", but this is a topic for another thread. The relevant thing is that Catelyn certainly knew the importance of keeping her emotions in check when necessary and putting up appearances for political purposes. She even told Robb advice along those lines a few times. We know that Catelyn was Sansa's role model for being a strong lady which for her includes being calm and in control of her emotions (like on the tourney when Sansa reflected about this when she saw that squire being killed).

Are we thinking of the same Cat here? Most of Cats actions derive from her emotional state (freeing Jaime, capturing Tyrion, etc.) rather than what is logically sound. I'm not saying that Cat wasn't capable of remaining composed, of course she was, I already said that she was very much 'lady-like' at most times. But a lot of her decisions come from what she feels emotionally at the time, it's why they often end badly too.

even the wiki agrees "Catelyn is also a fiercely protective woman and more often than not follows her heart rather than her head, especially when it come to her family, whom she loves deeply."

But you're right, probably a topic for another thread.

[Mortal Engines]

Great post :) It's interesting and ironic as you noted that Jeyne now has to become Arya Stark after trying to emulate and identifying with Sansa for all those years. This highlights an important point concerning being true to one's self and having a strong sense of identity. Arya and Sansa are very very different, and readers often critique Sansa's "passivity" in contrast to Arya's "activity" but what this criticism is failing to consider is that both sisters are being faithful to their unique sensibilities and personalities, and it's because of this solid sense of self that they are able to survive their respective trials. Sansa's courtesy armour comes naturally to her, as does Arya's reliance on physical fighting, but Jeyne exists in a kind of no man's land, where she has neither the confidence to assume Sansa's courtesy armour nor the ability to wield Arya's force. This results in pitiful attempts to simply repeat to others that she is Arya and doing her duty, being the "good girl" - without actually being able to draw on the real strengths of either Sansa or Arya. In fact, Jeyne's attempt to masquerade as Arya, while performing as a watered down version of Sansa, illustrates perfectly the disharmony and disaster that would result if either sister would try to embody the next. We say it all the time, but had Sansa and Arya switched places, they would not have survived. Jeyne's tragedy is that she never appreciated herself as the steward's daughter, and the mental breakdown is symptomatic of the impossibilty of having to be the other, when the self has never been fully realised.

You always have this way of taking what I was trying to say a put it much more elegantly! You're completely right though and your point about survivual is spot on as is the 'solid sense of self'.

I really couldn't of put it better myself. :thumbsup:

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Great post :) It's interesting and ironic as you noted that Jeyne now has to become Arya Stark after trying to emulate and identifying with Sansa for all those years. This highlights an important point concerning being true to one's self and having a strong sense of identity. Arya and Sansa are very very different, and readers often critique Sansa's "passivity" in contrast to Arya's "activity" but what this criticism is failing to consider is that both sisters are being faithful to their unique sensibilities and personalities, and it's because of this solid sense of self that they are able to survive their respective trials. Sansa's courtesy armour comes naturally to her, as does Arya's reliance on physical fighting, but Jeyne exists in a kind of no man's land, where she has neither the confidence to assume Sansa's courtesy armour nor the ability to wield Arya's force. This results in pitiful attempts to simply repeat to others that she is Arya and doing her duty, being the "good girl" - without actually being able to draw on the real strengths of either Sansa or Arya. In fact, Jeyne's attempt to masquerade as Arya, while performing as a watered down version of Sansa, illustrates perfectly the disharmony and disaster that would result if either sister would try to embody the next. We say it all the time, but had Sansa and Arya switched places, they would not have survived. Jeyne's tragedy is that she never appreciated herself as the steward's daughter, and the mental breakdown is symptomatic of the impossibilty of having to be the other, when the self has never been fully realised.

Yes, yes, yes! Sansa and Arya are both equally strong in entirely different ways. Arya may be more stereotypically "spunky" and strong in a way that is appealing to modern Western sensibilities - readers love her spunky tomboy-ness and Won't Take BS attitude. But Sansa is amazingly capable, resourceful, and intelligent and her courtesy armor is as hard and deadly as Needle.

Sansa's biggest weakness was something that was inculcated into her by certain people and I am not talking about Ned and Catelyn (Ned's biggest parental sin was overindulgence and assuming that everyone was as honorable as he was; he probably assumed that whoever his kids married would love them and indulge their quirks as much as he did).

If Sansa meets Brienne, it will be a change as far as Maiden archetypes are concerned. So far Maidens have been nothing but bad news for Sansa. Septa Mordane stuffs her head full of naive ideas about love, romance, beauty and chivalry that impair Sansa's functioning in the real world. Jeyne is a good friend, but instead of being the down-to-earth steward's daughter she enables Sansa's illusions, eggs her on in disliking her sister, never calls her on any BS, and is totally helpless when disaster hits (she can't watch a tourney without getting sick to her stomach, and when the fit hits the shan at Blackwater Sansa has to comfort HER). Margaery is at least complicit in luring Sansa into a trap where she could be implicated in Joffrey's murder. A good thing Mya and Randa are no maids!

The sad thing about Jeyne is that she is a "wannabe." She's a wannabe Sansa, but she can't be one because she is a steward's daughter who doesn't have the charisma or allure of an Ellaria Sand, or the street-smarts and self-confidence of Mya. She dreams of being something she isn't - a highborn lady - and in a horrible, horrible, twisted way, she gets her wish. :ack: And where we see her in ADWD she is helplessly looking for rescue; Theon/Reek is thinking "I wish I could rescue you like a knight in a romance but I can't, this is real life." Sansa was quick to wise up but Jeyne never did. And when Littlefinger says "I'll take care of you" to Sansa, she knows exactly how dangerous that offer is, but when he "took care of" Jeyne (sent her to a whorehouse) poor Jeyne probably thought she WAS being taken care of. She's so broken that when she is presented as Arya, she's helpless. Theon winds up rescuing her and he's well broken down by that time; but he still has a bit of himself left, Jeyne is now a shell and I don't know if she will ever recover.

Being a "lady" gives Jeyne no power; she's a dehumanized, broken shell of a person trapped in a nightmare. And here's another thing: the success or failure of an arranged marriage hinges on both people involved. Cat and Ned made a success of theirs; but we see from Cat's viewpoint that she had to work at it and only grew to fall in love with Ned over time. She was never repulsed by him, just felt like she didn't know him and that he was rather cold and distant. But Ned and Cat made a success of their marriage because both were kind, decent people who wanted to have a happy marriage, and neither was hanging on to romantic dreams (or if Ned was, over Ashara Dayne or whomever, he didn't let them interfere with his marriage).

Cersei's marriage failed due to all sorts of reasons, but mainly because neither Robert nor Cersei even really tried to make things work, nor were they pleasant people. As for poor Jeyne - no one could make a marriage to the Westerosi Charles Manson work. A woman could have the face of an angel, the heart of a saint, and childbearing hips for days - and if she got Ramsay Bolton for a husband she's doomed to misery and death. (Even Roose Bolton and Fat Walda Frey seem to be happy together :wacko: :blink: and that is saying a lot)

I don't think Jeyne's fate is just because she's a "wannabe" but because she doesn't have the tools needed (brains, skills, guts) to escape her fate. Even in the ADOW preview chapter

Theon tells her that she had better keep up her Fake Arya persona or people will think she's just a whore and treat her accordingly

Is it a coincidence that her name is "Jeyne" which seems to be the generic Westerosi female name (like "Mary" in real life)?

[brashcandy]

@KRBD- agreed, and Jeyne's example makes it all the more obvious just why Sansa is excelling at being Alayne Stone. An assumed identity can only function properly if one has the necessary skills/strengths to allow for empowered articulation. Otherwise one just becomes an automation, a true puppet with someone else pulling the strings. Having said that, I think the unknown extent of the true horror that Jeyne endured before she was even called upon to become Arya, needs to be taken into account when examining her breakdown.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

@BC - agreed about Jeyne's situation. The whip marks on her back and her statement that she was "trained" (to please a man sexually) made me want to reach through the pages and wring Littlefinger's neck. :devil: Jeyne has had the same thing done to her that human trafficking victims have. I shudder to think of her "training." (I could also write pages and pages of what I want to have happen to Ramsay Bolton. I hope his death is gruesome, painful, and protracted. I hate him worse than Joffrey or Gregor Clegane and that is saying quite a bit!)

Wannabe Jeyne may have been, but she never deserved the fate she got. It is probably the extreme of what could be the worst fate a Westerosi woman could have.

[brashcandy]

Indeed :(

I also really liked your point on maids not having been very good (learning experience etc) to Sansa, and your general thoughts on how she represents the Mother figure are extremely interesting. This is why I can't see her becoming the Virgin Queen, to be honest. So much of her experience revolves around women embracing their sexuality and stuggling for autonomy, that it would truly be a tragic ending if these things were not realised for Sansa.

[Lady Lea]

I would also like to point out that even though Sansa is called a "total snob" and "arrogant" her best friend in Winterfell was a steward's daughter. Not one of the highborn ladies. She understood the class divide, but she was genuinely friends with Jeyne.