From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VII

[Mortal Engines]

I would also like to point out that even though Sansa is called a "total snob" and "arrogant" her best friend in Winterfell was a steward's daughter. Not one of the highborn ladies. She understood the class divide, but she was genuinely friends with Jeyne.

This is an important point, sometimes we get a bit clinical when talking about the relationship between the two. I do think that both were actually true best friends and did like each other truly not just in a using way.

[Lady Lea]

(also this thread really is moving way faster than usual)

[brashcandy]

This is an important point, sometimes we get a bit clinical when talking about the relationship between the two. I do think that both were actually true best friends and did like each other truly not just in a using way.

That's true. It's one of the reasons I hope Sansa is able to have a genuine friendship with Mya Stone. That aspect of sisterhood has been missing from her life for so long, and was painfully stripped away when the Tyrells deserted her after the motley wedding.

(also this thread really is moving way faster than usual)

Sansa analysis is a beautiful thing :)

[Mortal Engines]

@Ladylea

It's obviously because I've descended on the thread! :hat:

I kid, I kid :lol:

That's true. It's one of the reasons I hope Sansa is able to have a genuine friendship with Mya Stone. That aspect of sisterhood has been missing from her life for so long, and was painfully stripped away when the Tyrells deserted her after the motley wedding.

I wish so too, but the cynic in me doubts it. I think that the influence of Cersei's negativity and LF's player training have made so Sansa will have a really tough time trusting anyone fully, both these characters have drilled into her not to trust any one (other than them - obviously). Put Tyrell's betrayal into the mix and it makes it even less likely.

As much as I want Sansa to reach to point in which she can have a real friendship again, I don't really see it happening, she might gain friends and companions but she'll always sleep with one eye open as it were.

[Lyanna Stark]

Are we thinking of the same Cat here? Most of Cats actions derive from her emotional state (freeing Jaime, capturing Tyrion, etc.) rather than what is logically sound. I'm not saying that Cat wasn't capable of remaining composed, of course she was, I already said that she was very much 'lady-like' at most times. But a lot of her decisions come from what she feels emotionally at the time, it's why they often end badly too.

even the wiki agrees "Catelyn is also a fiercely protective woman and more often than not follows her heart rather than her head, especially when it come to her family, whom she loves deeply."

But you're right, probably a topic for another thread.

A sidenote since I have recently read through most of Cat's chapters and made notes, plus I did the write up on how her character may have affected Sansa:

Regarding the Wiki's level of correctness, I have written in the Wiki section about how slanted the article of Catelyn is. It's simply incorrect on a couple of occasions and seems to be written by someone who really dislikes Catelyn or isn't familiar with her story arc. Just look at the comment where it says she is supposed to be beautiful despite having given birth to five children. Horrible comment much? I happen to work together with a woman who is a mother of five, and you would never, ever in a million years be able to tell. She looks bloody amazing. Is there a standard to beauty that means you need to look like a seventeen year old to be acceptable?

I might add here that the Wiki about Sansa is also a tad bit doubtful as it describes her as she is in AGOT with basically one line about character development. This ties into that I think both Cat and Sansa are misunderstood characters by large parts of the readership since neither of them are typical SFF characters...and people seem to have problems knowing how to interpret them.

Cat is driven by emotions just like every other character in the books, almost. However, very importantly, Cat is fierce, but knows how to control her emotions in the majority of cases. People who say she is emotional for arresting Tyrion have completely misunderstood the legal background to which Cat arrested Tyrion, not to mention the situation she was in that prompted it. I find that rereading her story arc of AGOT and ACOK is extremely helpful to trace her motivations and understand her reasoning. It also makes it clear that a lot of Cat's advice are sound. And that she didn't mind sleeping rough and travelling as the only woman when she rode down to see Renly and Stannis. She also travelled on her own with Ser Rodrik Cassel and was totally unmoved by that, too. We also learn that she travelled a lot with her father and that she got a rather "male oriented" education due to being the heir to Riverrun for a long time. After her mother's death, she also had Lysa as her only real female companion, everyone around her apart from that seemed to have been male, so Cat's role models in that regard are male. Note also that Sansa says she wants to be a lady like Cersei, but strong like her mother. So Sansa draws strength from her mother, but when it comes to refinement? I tend to think that Cat has a rather strong, fierce and sharp persona that perhaps didn't really mesh with the more gentle lady like persona Sansa seemed to idealise (which also fits very well with how Arya was more like Cat while Sansa is more like Ned).

People seem to hold it against her how she reacted after Bran's death, that she either had to be completely logical, or a complete emotional wreck. She can't first have a breakdown and then get back on her feet. For some reason?

Even releasing Jaime (which btw Robb should have done ages ago but didn't cos he is a thickie) she deliberated and it is not a spur of the moment. She only does it out of desperation once Bran and Rickon are dead, too. And she fully knew the consequences and was willing to sacrifice herself for a chance at saving her children. Emotional? Sure, but also very rational. She took her last chance fully well knowing that it was desperate.

Cat also emphasises how she wishes she'd be able to split herself up in five parts and be with all her children. In the middle of this, she loses a husband and a father. It's heartbreaking to read Cat trying to hold herself together in the face of so much grief, sorrow and loss. At the Red Wedding, she even wonders if there was an equally depressing wedding and thinks of Sansa's to Tyrion. I really agree with Jaime L's old statement that you have to be without a soul to not sympathise with Cat's plight. :crying: It's also prudent to point out here that Cat rose from death to find her daughters. Not even death could stop her from taking revenge on the Freys and from trying against hope to find Sansa and Arya.

No major character in the series is completely ruled by emotion and none completely by logic, they have their own motivations and feelings, this goes for Cat same as any other character. I am really not sure why Cat suffers so much misunderstanding and pure projection by people. It makes me sad since I see this happen a lot to Sansa as well.

This is an important point, sometimes we get a bit clinical when talking about the relationship between the two. I do think that both were actually true best friends and did like each other truly not just in a using way.

This is an important point, I think. Sansa even says that she cannot think of Jeyne (et al) since it hurts to much.

[Lyanna Stark]

I wish so too, but the cynic in me doubts it. I think that the influence of Cersei's negativity and LF's player training have made so Sansa will have a really tough time trusting anyone fully, both these characters have drilled into her not to trust any one (other than them - obviously). Put Tyrell's betrayal into the mix and it makes it even less likely.

As much as I want Sansa to reach to point in which she can have a real friendship again, I don't really see it happening, she might gain friends and companions but she'll always sleep with one eye open as it were.

I wonder. I really do hope that Sansa and Mya can be friends, since I think both of them have been betrayed, in a sense (Mya by Robert who left her and then the Redfort squire) and Sansa by a myriad of people in Kings Landing. It would not surprise me if they were both a bit stand offish in the beginning, but I also can't help but wonder if Sansa can't make it happen by way if playing "matchmaker"? She seems to have spent so much time pondering Lothor's feelings for Mya that it seems unlikely nothing will come of it, or that Sansa won't try and practise her social skills at doing something about it.

The issue of trust in general for Sansa is perhaps of even more interest. If there's one thing Sansa has learnt in Kings Landing, it is to trust nobody. Will she be unable to trust people for the rest of her life? The one person she seems to have let her guard down with is Sandor, but when she meets him again, will there be too much time, distance and other things in the way for her ever to be able to do that again? Not to mention that he may not be the most...effortless of conversationalists.

[brashcandy]

I wonder. I really do hope that Sansa and Mya can be friends, since I think both of them have been betrayed, in a sense (Mya by Robert who left her and then the Redfort squire) and Sansa by a myriad of people in Kings Landing. It would not surprise me if they were both a bit stand offish in the beginning, but I also can't help but wonder if Sansa can't make it happen by way if playing "matchmaker"? She seems to have spent so much time pondering Lothor's feelings for Mya that it seems unlikely nothing will come of it, or that Sansa won't try and practise her social skills at doing something about it.

:) This is essentially what I was going to reply to Mortal Engines as well. I actually am optimistic that she will trust Mya Stone and I think a lot of it has to do with her bastard status and the fact that now she can identify and empathise with Mya's situation. Before, Sansa was aware of the social divide between Jeyne and herself; a man like Beric would not be able to marry a steward's daughter, while Sansa Stark would have her pick of highborn men and princes. A lot has changed since then, not only with the adopted persona of Alayne Stone, but the development of Sansa's feelings for Sandor Clegane. She's still aware of social hierarchies, but her personal feelings have shifted a great deal. Also, Sansa appreciates the relative autonomy that bastardy can give to a woman, and she sees Mya as the strong, independent type she aspires to be. I really do think there's potential there for the friendship to be just as strong, and ultimately more meaningful than the one she enjoyed with Jeyne.

[Valkyrja]

I wonder. I really do hope that Sansa and Mya can be friends, since I think both of them have been betrayed, in a sense (Mya by Robert who left her and then the Redfort squire) and Sansa by a myriad of people in Kings Landing. It would not surprise me if they were both a bit stand offish in the beginning, but I also can't help but wonder if Sansa can't make it happen by way if playing "matchmaker"? She seems to have spent so much time pondering Lothor's feelings for Mya that it seems unlikely nothing will come of it, or that Sansa won't try and practise her social skills at doing something about it.

The issue of trust in general for Sansa is perhaps of even more interest. If there's one thing Sansa has learnt in Kings Landing, it is to trust nobody. Will she be unable to trust people for the rest of her life? The one person she seems to have let her guard down with is Sandor, but when she meets him again, will there be too much time, distance and other things in the way for her ever to be able to do that again? Not to mention that he may not be the most...effortless of conversationalists.

I too hope that Mya and Sansa can be true, actual friends. Sansa has not had a female friend that was truly her own since poor Jeyne was taken away to her horrifying fate. :crying:

I also have been wondering about your second point, whether or not Sansa will be able to trust Sandor Clegane if/when she seems him again. I do agree that she will have a hard time fully trusting most people at all at this point, but at the same time, I still have some (perhaps overly optimistic) hope in her ability to trust him if she sees him again. I find it hard to believe that the fact that Sansa and Sandor's 'bond' is unknown to pretty much every single other person other than themselves (and maybe Arya, but I think this fact went over her head, lol) will not somehow play a role in the future (should they meet again). Sansa never told anyone the story of his burns, and ever since then everything between them was secret, and kept only between themselves. Not even LF knows, and that's saying something. During their interactions together in KL, one thing that strikes me is that Sansa is able to speak freely around Sandor, at a time when she can do this around no one else. She even tells him off for his harsh behaviour, and that is well before she 'becomes' Alayne Stone (who may be even more apt to speak her mind to such a man). Also, so far, even when Sansa has her somewhat bitter thoughts about Sandor, it is not because she thinks he outright lied to her, but rather because she feels that he left her. That must, in some way, mean that she'd rather he were still around....(?) So, yes, Sandor may be falling into the 'all men do this' category that Mya states when she says that 'a man will die, or lie, or leave you', but.....what if a man comes back? I suppose it just really depends on the state of mind of the woman upon said man's hypothetical return.

[Lyanna Stark]

So, yes, Sandor may be falling into the 'all men do this' category that Mya states when she says that 'a man will die, or lie, or leave you', but.....what if a man comes back? I suppose it just really depends on the state of mind of the woman upon said man's hypothetical return.

LOL are you channelling Jaqen? :P "A man can come back"

[Valkyrja]

LOL are you channelling Jaqen? :P "A man can come back"

A woman did that on purpose. ;)

ETA: Speaking of Jaqen, interesting that Arya too thinks on him with some sense of bitterness in a way that makes it sound as though a man 'left her' with nothing but a bloody coin!

[Pod The Impaler]

I wouldn't say Catelyn was lenient as a parent, though it's hard to tell because we get very little info about it. For example, when Arya run away from the embroidery lesson in her first PoV, the chapter ended with "It was worse than Jon had thought. It wasn’t Septa Mordane waiting in her room. It was Septa Mordane and her mother.".

On the other hand, Ned showed almost implausible amount of leniency at times - like when he told Bran "Oh, well, since you continue to climb anyway against my orders, go for it, just make sure your mother doesn't see you" or when he found Syrio for Arya against all conventions of the Westerosi society.

Unfortunately there are only a few examples shown which we can draw from. My interpretation of the Stark household is that the discipline gets divided, along very traditional lines. Ned is probably tougher on the boys, easier on the girls. Catelyn is probably the one who's tougher on the girls, easier on the boys (except Jon Snow, whom she shuns). No doubt Septa Mordane, Maester Luwin, and even Rodrick Cassel all had some amount of disciplinary power over the kids they taught, but ultimate authority was mom and dad (as it should be).

I would also like to point out that even though Sansa is called a "total snob" and "arrogant" her best friend in Winterfell was a steward's daughter. Not one of the highborn ladies. She understood the class divide, but she was genuinely friends with Jeyne.

Well, it is also made clear that in the North, the "class divide" is not as sharp and formal. They have almost no "Sers", despite the fact they have certain houses which are clearly more powerful. Sansa's two most notable friends were Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel, both of which were essentially highborn, but in the northern sense. If they were southern, they'd be considered daughters of knights. Their families were important in the liege lord's household; that is maybe not on the level of powerful bannermen like the Umbers, but certainly not down amongst the peasantry. Sansa's friends might be too low for marrying a prince, or a Tully / Tyrell class of noble families, but knights and lesser sons of lords were quite likely in their league. Whether Beric Dondarrion was actually too high up for someone like Jeyne Poole is unclear; he was just someone she had a crush on.

[Lyanna Stark]

I too hope that Mya and Sansa can be true, actual friends. Sansa has not had a female friend that was truly her own since poor Jeyne was taken away to her horrifying fate. :crying:

Interesting that Mya comments on how a man will die or lie or leave you, since Sansa seems to think Lothor Brune could be a good match for Mya. Will Sansa somehow be able to help Mya get over her trust issues and in doing so become her friend (and maybe getting over some of her own trust issues as well?)

It seems to me one of Sansa's issues so far has been to know in whom to trust. Almost every time she has trusted in someone, it has come at a steep cost, perhaps with the exceptions of Sandor. Cersei completely used her, the Tyrells did too, Dontos told LF about the Tyrell plan, LF himself is just...well, not trustworthy in the least. That's a pretty short list of people who are trustworthy for Sansa since it's basically limited to "maybe Sandor" and apart from that: empty.

Mya Stone though doesn't have any ulterior motives when it comes to Sansa. She doesn't seem to want to advance in society or marry LF (unlike Myranda) and seems fairly happy doing what she does. Perhaps Sansa needs to find these people who likes her for herself and doesn't want anything off her when she needs people to trust? Mya seems like a prime candidate for this.

[brashcandy]

Interesting that Mya comments on how a man will die or lie or leave you, since Sansa seems to think Lothor Brune could be a good match for Mya. Will Sansa somehow be able to help Mya get over her trust issues and in doing so become her friend (and maybe getting over some of her own trust issues as well?)

I think so. What's interesting is that Mya, whilst legitimately strong and independent, is still obviously bitter over what happened with her Redfort beau, and has additional trust issues stemming from Robert's desertion. Sansa not only benefits from having had a loving relationship with her father, but she's also not hurting over Loras Tyrell. All this means that she can really be of help to Mya Stone, and use her own appreciation for loyal, but homely men to influence Mya's feelings for Lothor; perhaps discovering the depth of her own for Sandor.

[Valkyrja]

I think so. What's interesting is that Mya, whilst legitimately strong and independent, is still obviously bitter over what happened with her Redfort beau, and has additional trust issues stemming from Robert's desertion. Sansa not only benefits from having had a loving relationship with her father, but she's also not hurting over Loras Tyrell. All this means that she can really be of help to Mya Stone, and use her own appreciation for loyal, but homely men to influence Mya's feelings for Lothor, and perhaps discover the depth of her own for Sandor.

^ *want*

GRRM, are you listening???!!! :bawl:

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

I think so. What's interesting is that Mya, whilst legitimately strong and independent, is still obviously bitter over what happened with her Redfort beau, and has additional trust issues stemming from Robert's desertion. Sansa not only benefits from having had a loving relationship with her father, but she's also not hurting over Loras Tyrell. All this means that she can really be of help to Mya Stone, and use her own appreciation for loyal, but homely men to influence Mya's feelings for Lothor; perhaps discovering the depth of her own for Sandor.

Arya is the one who could really use some help from Sansa. Ok, I know people like Arya and dislike Sansa. But listen to this. Sansa, despite being dumb, has a soft heart for broken people (Dontos, Lord Robert). Arya is emotionally disabled and not even close to being normal upstairs. Maybe if they can get together, Sansa can help get Arya's mind back to something almost normal. Sansa's compassionate nature might be the healing touch that can save Arya from her mental illness.

[Lady Lea]

Arya is the one who could really use some help from Sansa. Ok, I know people like Arya and dislike Sansa. But listen to this. Sansa, despite being dumb, has a soft heart for broken people (Dontos, Lord Robert). Arya is emotionally disabled and not even close to being normal upstairs. Maybe if they can get together, Sansa can help get Arya's mind back to something almost normal. Sansa's compassionate nature might be the healing touch that can save Arya from her mental illness.

Sansa is not dumb. In fact, she does better than Arya in every subject, except sums.

Otherwise, yes, I do think Sansa can help Arya "heal" emotionally. It would be very touching to see the sisters reunite. ETA: not that Arya is mentally ill. She has just seen and been through a lot, especially for a child.

[Queen of Winter]

Towards the end of the last thread, we started to analyse the female characters Sansa has come into contact with, exploring how she interacts with these women, her opinion and treatment of them, and how they have impacted/will impact on her development overall through the lessons/advice they've imparted. The influence of other women is a major part of Sansa's storyline, so this recent exercise has been quite revealing.

Posters still to contribute:

Lyanna Stark --- Catelyn

Kittykatknits --- Cersei

Caro 99 --- Mya Stone

Dr. Pepper --- Lollys

Queen Cersei I --- Shae

KRBD --- Septa Mordane

Brashcandy --- Jeyne Poole/Kella

Please feel free to carry on the discussion from the last thread! There's no rush on the analyses.

This is a wonderful idea brash! I look forward to going through the responses! :)

Keep up the good work guys! :thumbsup:

[brashcandy]

This is a wonderful idea brash! I look forward to going through the responses! :)

Keep up the good work guys! :thumbsup:

Hello QoW! :) Glad you liked the idea, and you will be making time to comment of course ;)

[Caro99]

Brash:

She can really be of help to Mya Stone, and use her own appreciation for loyal, but homely men to influence Mya's feelings for Lothor; perhaps discovering the depth of her own for Sandor.

That is exactly what i think its happening! The matchmaking with mya & lothor is in a way Sansa trying to justify that it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to end up with Sandor. & the fact that she is so far in Feast doing this unconsciously is great cause without fully realizing it some part of her mind already knows Sandor isn’t such a bad idea and is trying to let her see that. I don’t know if all the pillow talks she can have with randa will help her see that there is a reason for her constant thinking about Sandor, but i feel that the moment if and when they meet again will be when the blind falls of her eyes and she will see the obvious...

Valkyrja:

Sandor may be falling into the 'all men do this' category that Mya states when she says that 'a man will die, or lie, or leave you', but.....what if a man comes back? I suppose it just really depends on the state of mind of the woman upon said man's hypothetical return.

Indeed, and while Mychael is already married, Sandor is still free- free to come back to her and who knows what else.. I think Sansa will realize that the UnKiss never happened and that Sandor left her because she didn’t look like wanting to go with him in that particular moment. She will see that he respected her choice which can be a breath of fresh air after the way LF behaves around her with the whole... "Don’t you like my gift? I think it deserves another kiss- even if you don’t want to…" :ack: not to change the subject too much, but I am sure LF knows that Sansa doesn’t like those things with his remark on how dutiful Sansa kisses him. But will he respect her thoughts on it? Of course not! :stillsick:

[Queen of Winter]

Hello QoW! :) Glad you liked the idea, and you will be making time to comment of course ;)

I'll do my best! Unfortunately, lately these Sansa threads tend to move faster than I can read! :P :D